specialization after DDS/DMD

[seabreeze]

If one chooses to pursue a specialization after obtaining their DDS (ie in orthodontics) how many years would this typically take to complete?

[Adversary]

3 to 6 years depending on the specialty.

[Arnie]

Unless I'm mistaken, a tour guide at my UofT interview said that only ~3 students get the chance to specialize, and you have to be at the top of the class to get that chance.

 

What say you, Adversary? (Pls and Thnx!)

[koft]

I can answer this question....

 

It totally depends whether you want to pursue specialties in Canada vs. US.

In Canada, for your questions, Orthodontics. No one get into that straight out of DDS degree. Some school prefer 1 year of general practice residency. while other require 2+ years of clinical experiences.

 

In the states, it is different. You have to have a good american part I board score 90+ (depending on program), good reference letters, and good academic ranking within your class. Actually there are ortho programs in US only require 2 years, but they are a dying breed!

 

As for how many ppl go into specialty straight out. my class was 4.... but now my graduating class total is about 9.... so it is more than 3.. but it varies b/t years. (Prostho, Perio, Endo, OMS, paeds and ortho)

 

Hope that answer your question.

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Ford Taurus Picture

[Arnie]

Thanks koft

 

I'll be going to school in Canada and hope to stay for practice.

 

I don't understand something...

 

You said "No one get into that (Orthodontics) straight out of DDS degree. Some school prefer 1 year of general practice residency. While other require 2+ years of clinical experiences."

 

Yet later in your post you say that 4ppl in your class got into specialty, while 9 in your class have done so to date. You're an '07 grad (less than 1yr of clinical exp), so isn't this kind of contrary to what you first said?? Especially the part that 4ppl in your class got into specialty immediately after graduation?

 

Also, did 4ppl combined go into specialty or is that 4ppl per specialty?? (prolly the former)

 

If these are basic questions, thanks for your patience, koft. In which case, let stupidity be my excuse.

[dany719]

Hmm... I wanna know about it too but....I'll think about it once I DO get into dentistry first ^^

[Arnie]

Hmm... I wanna know about it too but....I'll think about it once I DO get into dentistry first ^^

 

Bro, you're getting in. Start worrying about it.............NOW!!!

 

[coolwater]

I can answer this question....

 

It totally depends whether you want to pursue specialties in Canada vs. US.

In Canada, for your questions, Orthodontics. No one get into that straight out of DDS degree. Some school prefer 1 year of general practice residency. while other require 2+ years of clinical experiences.

 

In the states, it is different. You have to have a good american part I board score 90+ (depending on program), good reference letters, and good academic ranking within your class. Actually there are ortho programs in US only require 2 years, but they are a dying breed!

 

As for how many ppl go into specialty straight out. my class was 4.... but now my graduating class total is about 9.... so it is more than 3.. but it varies b/t years. (Prostho, Perio, Endo, OMS, paeds and ortho)

 

Hope that answer your question.

 

 

Good info.

 

There have been some changes now, though. For the US, getting into specialty programs is going to take on a new face from the year 2010. From that year on, the national boards will only be a pass/fail. So, program directors will only have your gpa/class rank/percentage and other extra stuff like lors, extracurriculars etc. They're looking into the issue right now to see how they can compare applicants now, since the boards were pretty much the only means of comparison from school to school, just like the DAT.

 

Ortho is probably the most wanted specialty, at least in the US. OMFS will soon overtake it, though.

 

Most schools only have about 5-8 spots for specialty programs, and every schools receives an average of 250 applications.

 

For average salaries, I think it follows the following order:

 

OMFS

Ortho and Prostho

Pedo

Perio

Endo

[bbqfish]

specialty is competitive to get in. not every dental school in canada has all the specialty programs. and each program will only take 2-5 ppl per yr. and keep in mind ppl in dental schools are smart. only the top of the smarties can get in.

 

Ortho is competitive coz most students only have exposure to that specialty prior to dental school. once u get in DMD/DDS, you will know more about other specialties and u may change ur mind. or maybe u get so fed up with the studying that u just wanna be a GP. I think it's good to have some ideas in mind. Try your best in dental school. You need good marks to get in. But don't have to be too hard core coz u know GP can have a decent income too. There are more GP than specialists out there. Be flexible. You are talking about several years down the road. Your financial/ family situation may change. It's not a bad idea to work a few yrs, get a feeling to see how it's like to try a bit of everything, then decide if u really want to specialize.

[Contach]

Hello,

 

I am wondering if these changes (pass/fail of national boards) will be implemented in Canada too ?

 

Also, do you think it's viable that in the near future classes in Dental School will follow suit like Medical Schools where there is no GPA, just fail/pass/pass with honours? I think this system is much better, and focuses the student on learning as opposed to marks - something important considering the student will soon be practicing.

 

Can I ask if anyone knows where I could find statistics on average incomes for certain specialties of GPs in different areas? Does anyone know of any good resources in either USA or Canada?

 

Thanks so much, I am finding this thread very informative.

Contach.

 

Good info.

 

There have been some changes now, though. For the US, getting into specialty programs is going to take on a new face from the year 2010. From that year on, the national boards will only be a pass/fail. So, program directors will only have your gpa/class rank/percentage and other extra stuff like lors, extracurriculars etc. They're looking into the issue right now to see how they can compare applicants now, since the boards were pretty much the only means of comparison from school to school, just like the DAT.

 

Ortho is probably the most wanted specialty, at least in the US. OMFS will soon overtake it, though.

 

Most schools only have about 5-8 spots for specialty programs, and every schools receives an average of 250 applications.

 

For average salaries, I think it follows the following order:

 

OMFS

Ortho and Prostho

Pedo

Perio

Endo

[koft]

Sorry for any confusion. In my graduating class, 4 of us got into specialty program in both Canada and US. None of us applied to ORTHO.

 

Now that it is almost 1 year out. More ppl applied to post-grad program, so after the US MATCH results and Canadian program acceptance. our class total ballooned to 9 (including 1 ORTHO). So it matched my comment that no one get into Canadian ORTHO program straight out. But i know from previous years that ppl did get into US ortho program immediately after grad, but the requirement is different between US and CANADIAN ortho programs.

 

Canadian program requires at least 1 year+ of clinical experience (check out their requirement on their website).

 

As far as, how many ppl get accepted in Canadian program, it depends on the program can range from 1 - 4 students per year.

Here are the program offer in English in Canada and the number of students they take each year (sorry i excluded french program)

 

Periodontics: UBC, UMan (1 or 2), UT (3)

Endodontics: UT (3)

Orthodontics: UofA (3), UMan (3), UWO (3), UT(4)

Prosthodontics: UT (2)

OMS: UMan (1), UWO (1), UT (2 or 3), Dal (1), McGill (1)

Paedo: UT (3)

Public Health: UT (5)

Oral Radiology: UT (2)

Oral Meds/Path: UT (1)

 

As for the US.. go to the ADA website there is a crap load of schools offer post-grad training, however, some of them may not be accredited or on probation. As far as the changes to US board goes, i have no new information, since I wrote mine a while ago, and they are still using the board percentile at the moment. As for the competitiveness in US. Depends on the school and programs. Ortho, Peds, OMS and Endo are probably the most competitive.

 

As for earning potential. On average, specialists do make more, however, the top billing dentist in Ontario was a GP!

________

Electric cigarettes

[koft]

Hello,

 

I am wondering if these changes (pass/fail of national boards) will be implemented in Canada too ?

 

Also, do you think it's viable that in the near future classes in Dental School will follow suit like Medical Schools where there is no GPA, just fail/pass/pass with honours? I think this system is much better, and focuses the student on learning as opposed to marks - something important considering the student will soon be practicing.

 

Can I ask if anyone knows where I could find statistics on average incomes for certain specialties of GPs in different areas? Does anyone know of any good resources in either USA or Canada?

 

Thanks so much, I am finding this thread very informative.

Contach.

 

By the way, no one will truly tell you how much they make in Canada, unlike MD, which remain a public domain information (excluding non-OHIP coverage procedures).. Beside you don't want ppl to know that you make x amount, because you end up paying taxes on that information.

 

All i can tell you is go look at your fee guide for the province that you are in. Find out how long each procedure takes to work up and complete.. Then you will get an estimate how much you will make. It also depends on how many hours you work in a week.

 

I have friends that worked 12 hours day and other only worked 6 hours..

 

Don't worry about the Canadian board for anything, except for getting your license, as long as you pass, no one cares!

 

American Part I is 1 day exam (split into 2 parts to administer, and 4 sections on basic sciences), the best thing is that you can totally walk out of that exam after you are finished, no need to sit and wait around. + you will walk out thinking you literally $#$$'d up the exam and wasted your money. But everyone will do fine.

Part II is 1 day exam (clinical based)

 

Canadian Board is 2 days exam, written and OSCE. (8 - 4 both days)

________

Chrysler crossfire specifications

[GotRice?]

This is kind of off topic, but I was just wondering... what is the difference in procedures that can be performed by an OMFS vs an ENT with head&neck surgery fellowship?

[AllSmiles]

Do a lot of students write the U.S. board exams? Do you have to go to the states to write them? Also do you have to plan ahead and write the first test after second year?

Just want to get this straight, for the Canadian test you just need to pass it to get your license but for the U.S. ones you have to get a certain mark to get licensed? Or for the U.S. tests the mark only counts if one wants to do a specialty?

 

At the moment I don't really want to even think about doing a specialty...I think instead I will just take a lot of continued education courses to learn new techniques. At the moment I'm most interested in prosthodontics.

[coolwater]

Hello,

 

I am wondering if these changes (pass/fail of national boards) will be implemented in Canada too ?

 

Also, do you think it's viable that in the near future classes in Dental School will follow suit like Medical Schools where there is no GPA, just fail/pass/pass with honours? I think this system is much better, and focuses the student on learning as opposed to marks - something important considering the student will soon be practicing.

 

Can I ask if anyone knows where I could find statistics on average incomes for certain specialties of GPs in different areas? Does anyone know of any good resources in either USA or Canada?

 

Thanks so much, I am finding this thread very informative.

Contach.

 

 

Some schools in the US have a pass/fail/honors system, others have a GPA system, and then there are those that have the percentile system. It depends on the school.

 

I don't think all schools will follow the p/f/h system. In fact, the ones that do follow it will most likely introduce some new ranking methodology because students at those schools will, starting in 2010, be at a disadvantage for not being ranked in class. Since everyone would have only a pass or a fail on the boards, there is no differentiating factor.

 

Here's what could happen:

 

-All schools start following a standardized ranking system, implemented by the ADA

-A new test is introduced that provides statistics and not just p/f

-Split the boards into a p/f exam and a percentage based one

[dany719]

 

Periodontics: UBC, UMan (1 or 2), UT (3)

Endodontics: UT (3)

Orthodontics: UofA (3), UMan (3), UWO (3), UT(4)

Prosthodontics: UT (2)

OMS: UMan (1), UWO (1), UT (2 or 3), Dal (1), McGill (1)

Paedo: UT (3)

Public Health: UT (5)

Oral Radiology: UT (2)

Oral Meds/Path: UT (1)

 

 

wow...it adds up to about 45 or so... per year!!! Must be super hard to get in

[koft]

Do a lot of students write the U.S. board exams? Do you have to go to the states to write them? Also do you have to plan ahead and write the first test after second year?

Just want to get this straight, for the Canadian test you just need to pass it to get your license but for the U.S. ones you have to get a certain mark to get licensed? Or for the U.S. tests the mark only counts if one wants to do a specialty?

 

At the moment I don't really want to even think about doing a specialty...I think instead I will just take a lot of continued education courses to learn new techniques. At the moment I'm most interested in prosthodontics.

 

It depends, the US board is useless if you are studying in Canada, and not planning to go to the US.

 

I think US board, you have to write it if you are studying in US. 75 percentile is a pass, and you do need to pass to continue your study (correct me if i am wrong), the rank only matter when you apply to US specialty program

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Cheap Glass Bongs

[Bill E Rubin]

Hey koft,

Where did you do you're DDS, and which school are you at now?

When did you start looking into externships and research opportunities. I've heard it's almost impossible to get into a OMFS program without these. What's your opinion on that?

Thanks!

[Dandoon]

I apologize if this is off topic, but Is it possible to specialize in the States and later work in Canada?

If it's so much more competitive in Canada, why doesn't everybody just go to the States, specialize in something, and come back once they're done?

 

Also, what do you have to do to have a good research/externship record? Do you have to go into DDS with published papers, or do you get a chance to publish papers during your 4 years?

[wisdom_tooth]

in relation to this topic what are the speciality programs offered by UWO? is it just these:

Divisions of Dentistry

 

Biomaterials Science

Practice Administration (formerly Community Dentistry)

Restorative Dentistry, includes:

Fixed and Removable Prosthodontics

Operative Dentistry and Endodontics

Oral Biology

Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery

Oral Medicine and Radiology

Graduate Orthodontics

Orthodontics and Paediatric Dentistry

Periodontics

 

 

Also is there such a thing as a cosmetic dentistry specicalization or is cosmetic dentistry a dentist that is specialized in many different areas of dentistry?

 

thanks

-WT

[AllSmiles]

There is no such specialization as a "cosmetic dentist" (aka aesthetic dentist), but it is a very popular trend right now since more people are becoming worried about the appearance of their smile (thank you Hollywood) and have more money (in some situation...yeah for suburbia). Theses dentists who focus on aesthetics have simply decided to do more procedures that one would consider to be more "elective" than essential. So procedures they might do may include: in office whitening, composite resin fillings, veneers, smile makeovers, more bridges/crowns, gingival reshaping... Basically to become a pro at those you have to take a bunch of continuing education courses and it probably would help to become an associate with a dentist focusing on aesthetics. In the U.S. (not sure about Canada) they have a lot of dentists like this... even "Dental Spas" in which you can get spa treatments done in conjunction with dental treatments. It's a very big fad right now

[bbqfish]

It is possible to go to US to specialize and come back as a specialist. Why doesn't everyone do it? same reason why not all undergrad apply to american schools. there's only 9 recognized specialties in Canada, as listed by koft. The other "specialties" are not real specialties. You can say "practice limited to", but only those 9 can claim themselves as specialists and not get in trouble.

[koft]

Well, even though, there are more spots in the US. Yet, there are more students in the US as well. Competition will still be there.. Of course unless you apply to school that are not accreditated, or on probation. There are reasons why those spots don't get fill.

 

You can specialize in the US and come back as long as you pass the specialist board exam.. otherwise you can call yourself a specialist in Canada.

 

Aside from the one that i have listed on previous post. every thing else you don't need to be a specialist to do so. Heck, you don't need to be a specialist to do Ortho, place implant, treat kids, apicotomy, etc.. As long as you don't screw up! you will be fine.

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Suzuki Rg250

[Dr.BadVibes]

Alright people........here is the lowdown on specializing.....

 

the people that have posted have been right so far......grades, ranks....all that **** is important when specializing......however, what has not been mentioned is the MOST IMPORTANT thing involved in specializing.....

 

NETWORKING NETWORKING NETWORKING........

 

Thats why if you really know that you want to specialize, I highly recommend that you attend a US dental school.....why?

 

cause everyone in the US knows everyone else within the specialty....especially program directors.....also program directors are much more familiar with the curriculums of US dental schools, so they know what resident they will be getting......

 

You guys have to realize that in the US, college life if completely different.....alma maters matter A LOT! Look at how big college sports are.....

 

As president of my dental school, Ive attended a millions meetings/conferences during my years here and everytime, someone is always asking what school I went to and "ohhh you went to Temple, my partner went to Temple....helluva dentist...."

 

or

 

"ohhh you went to Temple.....is Dr.X still there?? Man that guy was crazy"

 

stuff like that opens the door to conversation. So pleaseeeee do not discontinue how important networking is when applying to specialty programs...

 

Dentistry in the US is much much different than Canada..........there is wayyyyy more focus on specializing within US dental schools. I have met many Canadian dental graduates who are now in the US for GPR residencies and they all say the same thing:

 

"damn, US dental students talk a lot of specializing....in Canada, we dont get anything in comparison to what you guys get in terms of specialty exposure"

 

Just ask them yourself........and Im living proof of this:

 

Born and Raised Toronto boy

went to UofT undergrad

Went to Temple Dental

Going to UCLA for pedo

 

Never had over a 3.2 GPA in my entire life

 

How did I get in?? Well Im sure my charming personality had something to do with it, but it didnt hurt that the program director at UCLA has a big Temple "T" hanging on the wall of his office

 

and Im not an exception........only 3 people in my class didnt get accepted to a specialty.......everyone else did......and trust me, some of those guys had LOWWWWW GPAs.......

 

One guy in my class was ranked 80/125 in my class and he got into Temple Ortho.....remember the age-old saying:

 

Its not what you know.......its who you know

 

So if you wanna specialize for sure, do yourself a favour and goto a US dental school.........meet people, make connections and when it comes time to get letters of rec, it wont hurt to get a letter of rec from a professor at your school who used to be a frat brother of the program director of the program you are applying to

 

Lemme know if you have any questions from the US side.....

[Dr.BadVibes]

For average salaries, I think it follows the following order:

 

OMFS

Ortho and Prostho

Pedo

Perio

Endo

 

Last time I checked, pedo makes the 2nd most after OMFS averaging $275K/year

 

if you ask any pedodontist, they'll tell you that pedo used to be the best kept secret in dentistry

 

however, the secret is out and pedo receives the most applicants now