Salaries by Specialty

[moo]

For emerg docs it depends on where you work. Some places it's FFS--and you pass patients on to the next doc. So what I hear is that docs tend to want to see a lot at the end of their shift so they get to bill for it but the responsibility largely falls on the other doc coming on (not sure about how billing works in emerg though so don't quote me on this). There's also shadow billing where you have to bill for the hospital/group and the pot gets divided up at the end of the month, so you essentially get a set hourly rate.

[shikimate]

Interesting information about emerg. Do you guys have any idea as to what the approximate gross "hourly rate" would be for a FRCPC emerg? Is there a significant difference between earning of CCFP EM and FRCPC EM? I heard the UWO emerg program director say FRCPC emerg as in high demand, but he (and another FRCPC EM doc) were both reluctant to talk about how much or using what funding scheme they were paid.

 

Thanks for your expertise.

[BigM]

Interesting information about emerg. Do you guys have any idea as to what the approximate gross "hourly rate" would be for a FRCPC emerg? Is there a significant difference between earning of CCFP EM and FRCPC EM? I heard the UWO emerg program director say FRCPC emerg as in high demand, but he (and another FRCPC EM doc) were both reluctant to talk about how much or using what funding scheme they were paid.

 

Thanks for your expertise.

 

The pay is the same. The 5 year specialty and family docs both use the same billing codes. The only difference is there is reportedly difficulty in getting a job in SOME cities without the 5 year.

[justletmein]

The pay is the same. The 5 year specialty and family docs both use the same billing codes. The only difference is there is reportedly difficulty in getting a job in SOME cities without the 5 year.

 

Things may be different in Ontario, but in Quebec this could not be farther from the truth.

 

CCFP-EM docs in Quebec get paid significantly less than their 5-year counterparts for doing the exact same job.

[thebouque]

Indeed, if you work in Quebec the pay is better for FRCPC ER. I don't have the figures though.

[Mandibular]

In quebec, the specialists make 20% more than the 2+1.

However, they lack the versatility offered by the 2+1 degree.

[thebouque]

In quebec, the specialists make 20% more than the 2+1.

However, they lack the versatility offered by the 2+1 degree.

 

By versatility you mean that they can't go back to family practice?

 

By the way family docs without the +1 can do emerg as well ( and their billing is comparable to the 2+1).

[shikimate]

thanks for the info guys.

[Mandibular]

By versatility you mean that they can't go back to family practice?

 

By the way family docs without the +1 can do emerg as well ( and their billing is comparable to the 2+1).

 

By versatility, I meant they CAN go back to family practice eventually, whereas the 5 years program, your an emergency physician forever.

Yeah, of course you can practice EM without the +1. My teacher told you can even apply for the exam after doing X amount of hours of EM as an FM, so you'll get your +1 licensing

[Renin]

150K a year for a family is great.

 

Where I grew up; a lot of families were raised on combined incomes of less than 100K a year.

 

Also; you can do private psych.

[NLengr]

150K a year for a family is great.

 

Where I grew up; a lot of families were raised on combined incomes of less than 100K a year.

 

Also; you can do private psych.

 

Again, highly dependent on a number of factors. Lots of people raise families with less than that amount of cash, but the vast vast majority of those people aren't carrying massive medical debt either. Plus, the location of practice also determines what living expenses are like (downtown Toronto vs. Rural NB for instance).

 

I don't say it's a terrible salary, but I certainly don't think it's adequate for someone with the skills of a psychiatrist in todays psych job market either.

[BigM]

Again, highly dependent on a number of factors. Lots of people raise families with less than that amount of cash, but the vast vast majority of those people aren't carrying massive medical debt either. Plus, the location of practice also determines what living expenses are like (downtown Toronto vs. Rural NB for instance).

 

I don't say it's a terrible salary, but I certainly don't think it's adequate for someone with the skills of a psychiatrist in todays psych job market either.

 

Exactly. Sure, I could easily survive and bring up a family on $150K/year. But with all my school debts, the fact that I am going to be in my 30s when I actually start making money and a potential threat of mid-levels moving in, $150K/year does not provide a lot of stability. The more you make, the quicker you can develop stability and put money away in case unfortunate things happen.

[goleafsgochris]

Exactly. Sure, I could easily survive and bring up a family on $150K/year. But with all my school debts, the fact that I am going to be in my 30s when I actually start making money and a potential threat of mid-levels moving in, $150K/year does not provide a lot of stability. The more you make, the quicker you can develop stability and put money away in case unfortunate things happen.

 

These were my thoughts exactly, especially given that almost all jobs START at much, much lower than that (again, I saw postings in toronto for under 110k). Is that what you want to be making in your 30s with tons of debt? Hell, even teachers in Toronto can make almost 90k once they're in their mid 30s, and they have a hell of a lot less training and debt.

 

The low salaries of peds and psych sort of irk me, because for their training they should def be compensated more; considering FM is financially much better from what I have seen.

[BigM]

These were my thoughts exactly, especially given that almost all jobs START at much, much lower than that (again, I saw postings in toronto for under 110k). Is that what you want to be making in your 30s with tons of debt? Hell, even teachers in Toronto can make almost 90k once they're in their mid 30s, and they have a hell of a lot less training and debt.

 

The low salaries of peds and psych sort of irk me, because for their training they should def be compensated more; considering FM is financially much better from what I have seen.

 

I wonder how long they can actually let this happen? There is an enormous shortage in psychiatrists, can we really afford to have people avoiding the specialty because of the poor remuneration. From what I have seen, many, if not most, of the current psychiatrists are foreign trained. I would expect psychiatry to be the area where cultural familiarity is the most important.

[moo]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. There is a huge variation on how much one can make in a specific specialty. We can all quote averages or median income but that never tells the whole story.

 

Medicine in general is still very much a business. And, like any business, how much you make depends on how efficient you are, what products/services you offer, how well you know your province's billing system (I'm always surprised at how much money docs miss out on because they perform a service and don't know they can bill for it), how business-savvy you are, and a whole host of other things. There are people on the high end and low end of things. My personal family doc grossed in MSP billings around 250K a year (net probably around 180K) working 4 days a week (not including privates, WCB, ICBC, etc.). One of the docs I work with does a lot of private medicals for a certain industry and also immigration medicals for Canada and Australia and makes a ton more than what his MSP billings suggest. My mom does taxes for docs and some of the docs don't bill a lot but own their own clinics (be they specialists or family docs) and have other docs work for them, make an extra 10-35% off their overhead/billings and net over 1 million a year (yes family docs can do this too; the more your clinic bills, the percentage of overhead should go down as the most expensive costs of running a clinic are fixed, (staff pay, and rent if you don't own the building), thus more money into your pocket) on their clinic income. For me, working part-time right now on top of a residency (25 hours a week), I make enough to EASILY afford a mortgage on a 1.5 million dollar house 3 years out of residency. Bottom line is you will not be poor. You do not need a 7 figure salary to survive, even in a place like Vancouver and even with medical school debt (and I am the king of medical school debt having studied in the US when the dollar was low). As you can see, this question of how much can I expect to make is very difficult to answer and I now realize when I was at your guys' stage why I could never get a simple straight answer. If you're smart and business-savvy, have some common sense and are not afraid of working hard, you will be living a VERY comfortable life, even in overpriced housing markets like Vancouver (which is still dirt cheap compared to other places in the world). And if you have a physician-spouse, you will be even more well off. So stop worrying and enjoy life. Y'all have got enough to worry about while in med school.

[Handsome88]

Does anyone have figures for General IM?

[Handsome88]

I did some searching and also attending these interest club talks and have came up with these figures as an approximation (gross):

 

Anatomical Path: start 200k, high end 350k

 

Medical Onc: one doc say it's around 350k. A rad onc resident said salary in rad onc is in that range as well.

 

ENT: one doc say range from 350K to 500K, if you do cosmetic you can get to 7 figures.

 

Ophthal: probably 500K and up

 

Geriatrics: one doc say around 300K these days

 

Emerg: some data suggest 400K, but I don't know if that's FRCPC or CCFP EM

 

Diag. Rad. : some public salary figure around 400K

 

Lab med: some public figure suggest 200-250K

 

Are you sure EM is 400k? That's a bit too high isn't it? Heard it was more around 300k. Also it doesn't matter if they were FRCPC or CCFP EM.

[Jochi1543]

Does anyone have figures for General IM?

 

I don't have stats for you, but we had a GIM doc give us a talk about his specialty a while ago and he was very upfront about his own pay. He said he made 250K - and of course he had good benefits and a fair amount of vacation. I believe he was a fairly new doc, maybe 5 years out of residency at the most.

[shikimate]

Are you sure EM is 400k? That's a bit too high isn't it? Heard it was more around 300k. Also it doesn't matter if they were FRCPC or CCFP EM.

 

Maybe you are right, on average it's probably lower than that. It also depends on the number of shifts you choose.

 

Here's some of the OHIP billing codes and amounts from UWO emerg in case you are interested:

 

http://www.emlondon.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=43

[Handsome88]

Maybe you are right, on average it's probably lower than that. It also depends on the number of shifts you choose.

 

Here's some of the OHIP billing codes and amounts from UWO emerg in case you are interested:

 

http://www.emlondon.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=43

 

Thanks. Here is a link for salary distribution for all specialties in BC.

 

http://www.discoveryfinance.com/medical-doctor-salary-can-surprise-you.html

[Handsome88]

I love this list. The big guns are always ophthalmology, with urology and cardiology in 2nd and 3rd depending on how they practice. But rest assured ophtho is making all that coin with a manageable schedule whereas uro and cards are working their tails off at night.

 

If you want the opportunity, but not guarantee, to make MAD coin, do OPH.

Remember, the cash cow in OPH is the surgs(retina etc) and that requires OR time so if you can't get that you will make a little more than FP income.

 

Psych and peds get paid pittance. It's kind of disrespectful how little they make.

 

As for family, if you practice FP like the hippies in med tell you to do it, you'll make less than a high school principal. If you instead focus on simple procedures, ER shifts and turn-and-burn medicine, you'll make good coin. Office FP is a cash sinkhole.

 

PS does anyone else here think the term "family medicine" kind of harms the field's credibility?

 

I would say radiology is having it best. Cardiology not so much now a days (this list is from 2006 I believe). I wonder why lab medicine is doing so well.

[AK81]

Radiologists make good money but they work! It really should be taken off the ROAD specialties as the demand for quick and 24hr reporting has changed everything. Plus all the interventional procedures. They are constantly putting in drains, biopsying, etc. Tons of hours of work.

[Lactic Folly]

What do you mean by outside of the ER, bb?

[Lactic Folly]

Ok, gotcha. I was a bit confused by your use of "outside" and thought that might have meant excepting the ER.

 

Agree with your points. I will note that on call, we speak directly with the referring physician to convey our reports in most cases, and I feel the discussion of our interpretation vis-a-vis the patient's clinical presentation is helpful in ensuring optimal management.

[Nobodycirclesthewagons]

I love this list. The big guns are always ophthalmology, with urology and cardiology in 2nd and 3rd depending on how they practice. But rest assured ophtho is making all that coin with a manageable schedule whereas uro and cards are working their tails off at night.

 

If you want the opportunity, but not guarantee, to make MAD coin, do OPH.

Remember, the cash cow in OPH is the surgs(retina etc) and that requires OR time so if you can't get that you will make a little more than FP income.

 

Psych and peds get paid pittance. It's kind of disrespectful how little they make.

 

As for family, if you practice FP like the hippies in med tell you to do it, you'll make less than a high school principal. If you instead focus on simple procedures, ER shifts and turn-and-burn medicine, you'll make good coin. Office FP is a cash sinkhole.

 

PS does anyone else here think the term "family medicine" kind of harms the field's credibility?

 

How is the mode salary for Lab Medicine so high? Isn't Lab Med like pathology?