koft Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 CE is a big chuck - around $7000 last year. But I'm also including 'benefits' that I am self funding, like extended health insurance and long-term disability insurance. License, ODA, CDPA, AGD. A new pair of loupes last year. It adds up. haha technically loupe should not be included into pro development. I was thinking likely membership and ce course. easiest way to get your require ce pointe except core 1 are just part time at the school or run meeting or present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everclear Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 Thanks for your very informative opinion. I do agree that 400k debt does not make sense financially for dental school unless you plan to put off the stereotypical dentist lifestyle for 10-15 years or so. However keep in mind that most Canadians graduating from US and Australian dental schools will have significant input from family. I calculated that I would be in around 238k debt (I have no loans from undergrad). To me this was worth it because going into dental school in Canada, including living costs, would be about 160k debt. And if the average dental student in Canada had to pay for undergrad himself he would be at least 200k in the hole as well. So my consideration was to either wait a year to reapply (loose out on 1 year of dental salary) or be 38k in debt more than what the average Canadian dental student would be graduating with. In addition to the superior clinical experience and higher specialization rates than in Canada, US dental schools seemed like a reasonable alternative to me. But again I stress, personally I would not do dental school for 400k as my goal was to be relatively wealthy while relatively young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ostracized Posted April 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 haha technically loupe should not be included into pro development. I was thinking likely membership and ce course. easiest way to get your require ce pointe except core 1 are just part time at the school or run meeting or present. Sure sure. But there are CE points that you get just to keep your license and then there are CE points that you get to learn a new skill. The latter tends to be very pricy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Jan Intor Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 I still dont know where this magical $400k is coming from? The most any bank will give you is $250k and osap max would be about $40-50k. unless you're getting some other sort of loan from the bank this means max you would owe is $300k. I know $300k is still a lot of money but $100k difference is not something you can just overlook. If studying in private shools in US/ UBC/ Australia then student LoC and OSAP basically cover your tuition, so there remains cost of living. living very comfortably as a student will cost about $20k a year and that is something that you can't really calculate as debt (again unless you have some sort of additional loan from the bank). Family support, working part time etc. cover this cost so when you graduate you have your LoC to pay off and OSAP which is ~300k. I got $225k from a bank and about 10k/yr from osap so I'll owe $265k when I graduate. Im covering cost of living by working part time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koft Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Sure sure. But there are CE points that you get just to keep your license and then there are CE points that you get to learn a new skill. The latter tends to be very pricy. True, I guess since I am a specialist, I don't have to do many of those hot topics CE that tends to be in the tens of thousands of dollar.. I just do my interest course like oral path will be more than suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ostracized Posted April 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 I still dont know where this magical $400k is coming from? The most any bank will give you is $250k and osap max would be about $40-50k. unless you're getting some other sort of loan from the bank this means max you would owe is $300k. I know $300k is still a lot of money but $100k difference is not something you can just overlook. If studying in private shools in US/ UBC/ Australia then student LoC and OSAP basically cover your tuition, so there remains cost of living. living very comfortably as a student will cost about $20k a year and that is something that you can't really calculate as debt (again unless you have some sort of additional loan from the bank). Family support, working part time etc. cover this cost so when you graduate you have your LoC to pay off and OSAP which is ~300k. I got $225k from a bank and about 10k/yr from osap so I'll owe $265k when I graduate. Im covering cost of living by working part time. I'd imagine that you could get more if you had a cosigner who owned a home. There are definitely at least a handful of schools that will cost $400,000 or more all-inclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMarauder Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 From what I remember during the LOC application process with TD, the co-signer had to earn at least $60K/year (the more the better) and could not have a debt ratio above a certain number. I don't think it was a requirement for my co-signers to own a home, although they did. TD did take into consideration how much of the mortgage was paid off to calculate the debt ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Jan Intor Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 if we're strictly talking about professional student line of credit then all major banks have a capped limit as to how much they give out, there is some variation between bank to bank ex. $250k max/$275k max. This differs between programs as well ex. law/physio was less than med/dent. this maximum is independent of parents income or how much debt they have etc. the only difference between domestic and international being that domestic students don't need a cosigner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faizah Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Thank you once again. A few more questions: So, if the uni fees is about $120k, with books the total may go upto $150k? Also, after graduation, what are the job options for dentists? And how much do they start making soon after graduation? I am at a point where I have to make a decision whether to go for it or not, therefore I am quite stressed out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z3u2 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Yes, after you graduate you have yearly expenses to remain licensed. In Ontario you pay the RCDSO ~$2100 per year which also includes malpractice insurance. BC this year cost about $5k including malpractice insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koft Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 BC this year cost about $5k including malpractice insurance. Provincial registration varies I think BC and Alberta are the highest. the amount of malpractice insurance coverage is pretty low in Ontario of course, it depends on what type of dentistry you practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ostracized Posted April 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Thank you once again. A few more questions: So, if the uni fees is about $120k, with books the total may go upto $150k? Also, after graduation, what are the job options for dentists? And how much do they start making soon after graduation? I am at a point where I have to make a decision whether to go for it or not, therefore I am quite stressed out You won't be paying $30,000 on text books! I think I bought maybe 5 books at UofT. Job prospects will probably be ok so long as you steer clear of cities, but the trend is it's getting worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanup Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 That will vary dramatically depending on where you are and what kind of opportunities you get. It's one thing to "get a job" out of school, it's another to have enough patients who need enough work. You don't just walk into a clinic and start drilling all day, it's really like any other kind of business where you need to build your own clientele. I know some new grads struggling to bill 20-25K a month and making 29% and some new grads billing 45-60K and making 40% (percentages after lab fees taken off). Also, some provincial fee guides are higher, some provinces have no fee guide, in some regions dentists charge well over fee guide, etc, etc. This makes the range of monthly incomes astronomically broad. It's frustrating to not get a straight answer, but really, it depends on so many factors. 40% of 60K per month? That's insane. Must be working like dogs and/or working somewhere in the Yukon, in addition to being very, very lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dentopia11 Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 malkynn, not sure if you know specifics but im curious if you'd know how many patients in a day these high end earners see? i have some idea but would be interesting to hear from you as well! thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Molar Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 That will vary dramatically depending on where you are and what kind of opportunities you get. It's one thing to "get a job" out of school, it's another to have enough patients who need enough work. You don't just walk into a clinic and start drilling all day, it's really like any other kind of business where you need to build your own clientele. I know some new grads struggling to bill 20-25K a month and making 29% and some new grads billing 45-60K and making 40% (percentages after lab fees taken off). Also, some provincial fee guides are higher, some provinces have no fee guide, in some regions dentists charge well over fee guide, etc, etc. This makes the range of monthly incomes astronomically broad. It's frustrating to not get a straight answer, but really, it depends on so many factors. I completely agree with Malkynn. I also believe that the main difference between med and dent is the business side of dentistry. My relatives are dentists, working in Quebec. I have known a few of their friends, who process great clinical skill, obtained very high grade on the MCQ, best exam taker with awesome research exp on the CV, got bankrupted because they are not good with business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 I completely agree with Malkynn. I also believe that the main difference between med and dent is the business side of dentistry. My relatives are dentists, working in Quebec. I have known a few of their friends, who process great clinical skill, obtained very high grade on the MCQ, best exam taker with awesome research exp on the CV, got bankrupted because they are not good with business. ouch.....anything in particular they did incorrectly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Molar Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 ouch.....anything in particular they did incorrectly? I think it's their altitude that is the biggest issue. I talked to a few of them while visiting my relatives, and they have the mindset that all they need to success is getting high grade on the exam, read lots of textbooks, and wait for the patient to walk in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrewmrew Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 I think it's their altitude that is the biggest issue. I talked to a few of them while visiting my relatives, and they have the mindset that all they need to success is getting high grade on the exam, read lots of textbooks, and wait for the patient to walk in Is it safe to say that getting into dental school and surviving through it is almost completely grades/exam-taking-skills dependent, but after you're out... these things have almost no bearing on your success as a dentist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Molar Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Is it safe to say that getting into dental school and surviving through it is almost completely grades/exam-taking-skills dependent, but after you're out... these things have almost no bearing on your success as a dentist? well, i think we all need to obtain a decent skillset, know what we are doing, and perform a good job. However, from my personal point of view, the degree will simply give me the right to practice Dentistry. How successful I am, this will be based on my own effort, which (beside practicing dentistry) also include running my clinic, hiring the right team, manage my own access, investing ... etc. The word "deserve" is not in my dictionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koft Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 malkynn, not sure if you know specifics but im curious if you'd know how many patients in a day these high end earners see? i have some idea but would be interesting to hear from you as well! thanks. It depends on what procedures you do and how many hygienist you are supervising that day. And whether your patient pool is mostly 3rd party insured or welfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Is it safe to say that getting into dental school and surviving through it is almost completely grades/exam-taking-skills dependent, but after you're out... these things have almost no bearing on your success as a dentist? that sounds like pretty much every single career out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanup Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Is it safe to say that getting into dental school and surviving through it is almost completely grades/exam-taking-skills dependent, but after you're out... these things have almost no bearing on your success as a dentist? Sounds about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dentopia11 Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 It depends on what procedures you do and how many hygienist you are supervising that day. And whether your patient pool is mostly 3rd party insured or welfare. i know that..it also depends ultimately on the patient inflow as well. i know that average is between 9-11 pts per day for ontario. im just curious to know despite the above factors (variability in procedures, insurance, hygiene exams) how many pts high earners see in a day to gauge how much difference is due to patient volume vs the factors you stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koft Posted April 6, 2014 Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 i know that..it also depends ultimately on the patient inflow as well. i know that average is between 9-11 pts per day for ontario. im just curious to know despite the above factors (variability in procedures, insurance, hygiene exams) how many pts high earners see in a day to gauge how much difference is due to patient volume vs the factors you stated. Well, you don't have to see a lot of patient to be a high earner, ie if you are able to do like a prosthodontist (teeth in a day, or full mouth rehab, you only need to see 1 to 2 pt per day), but take home in 5 figures per day, but also your client base is very niche. High earners usually due high end procedures, ie. like crown, dental implants, some goes into braces and sleep appliances. rather than typical drill and fill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dentopia11 Posted April 6, 2014 Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 i was referring to new grad gp high end earners, the ones malkynn was talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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