Advice from a prior year unmatched student

[pbarry]

2013 second iteration match

 

CMG 80

IMG 127

 

Statistics can be manipulated to make almost any argument you want.

 

While what you posted makes it seem like IMGs "took away" more spots from CMGs, let's break down those #s a bit

 

Total CMGs participating in 2nd iteration = 160

Total # of 2013 CMG = 100 (meaning 60 CMGs were from prior years)

Total CMGs matched = 80, like you said

Total # of 2013 CMGs matched = 59 (meaning 21 from prior years)

 

Total # of IMGs participating in 2nd iteration = 1335

Total # of 2013 year IMGs = 133 (meaning 1202 are from prior years)

Total # of IMGs matched = 127, like you said

Total # of 2013 IMGs matched = 31

 

So, in reality, for 2013 graduates, 59 CMGs matched, while only 31 IMGs matched

 

And in % wise, 50% of all CMGs applying matched, while only 9.5% of IMGs matched

 

And for 2013 (new graduates), 59% of CMGs matched, while 23% of newly graduated IMGs matched.

 

Now, you can derive your own conclusions from a full analysis

 

But, it seems to me that CMGs still have very good odds of matching in the 2nd iteration, equal to or more than 50% and nearing 60% for new grads. IMGs are certainly not being given any preferential treatment given the less than 25% match rate even for new grads.

[sohaloh]

I was of the impression that canadians take out huge bank loans to complete medical school and then have to pay those off. Where does the subsidy come in?

[A-Stark]

But, it seems to me that CMGs still have very good odds of matching in the 2nd iteration, equal to or more than 50% and nearing 60% for new grads. IMGs are certainly not being given any preferential treatment given the less than 25% match rate even for new grads.

 

I don't want to stir this particular pot much more, but I'm not sure why you're characterizing a 60% match rate as a good thing. IMGs have it much worse, but the second iteration is something of a barbaric process either way.

[advair250]

I was of the impression that canadians take out huge bank loans to complete medical school and then have to pay those off. Where does the subsidy come in?

 

What on earth are you talking about? Canadian medical education is highly subsidized. The bank loans are nothing compared to what US medical students have to take out.

[keeponkeepinon]

 

(And in terms of IMGs, there has been a steady drop in IMGs enrolled in family medicine programs over the last several years, and it's debatable whether speciality positions should continue to exist in current numbers. I will also say that while some IMGs are very well prepared for residency, the majority I've worked with most certainly are not. Generally speaking those who trained in Ireland perform better than those from the Caribbean, and it's not always a subtle difference. But there are bad CMGs too - many of whom actually match in the first round.)

 

Where are you getting your statistics? There has been a steady rise in the number of IMG's enrolled in FM for several years, namely because its one of their biggest quotas - and the seats have increased every year. The same goes for us CMGs - the number matched and seats has increased.

 

Also your point "I will also say that while some IMGs are very well prepared for residency, the majority I've worked with most certainly are not" is contradictory. Either IMGs are very well prepared for residency or the majority you have worked with are not. You can't have it both ways. For example if your latter statement is true that the majority of IMGs are not well prepared - then then most IMGs are therefore ill prepped for residency. I think your statement showcases your bias. You are clearly in favor of Irish grads over the Caribbean variety. I can't say I have worked with very many of either to comment so I am uncertain how your exposure was so in depth.

 

As far as everyone elses comments about CaRMs being luck... yeah I can see that there is a bit of that. But if you are unmatched after 2nd iteration and then after the next year... luck has nothing to do with it. Just because someone graduates from medical school, does not make them entitled to a position - some CMGs just aren't meant for medicine - it's a tough pill to swallow but it's the truth. Career wise there are always other options.

[aaronjw]

Where are you getting your statistics? There has been a steady rise in the number of IMG's enrolled in FM for several years, namely because its one of their biggest quotas - and the seats have increased every year. The same goes for us CMGs - the number matched and seats has increased.

 

He said some were prepared while majority were not. Makes sense to me.

[keeponkeepinon]

He said some were prepared while majority were not. Makes sense to me.

 

you are right, i went back to read that he did in fact say "some". Although I still can't imagine how one CMG can have enough experience with IMGs to make sweeping generalizations and then some how even be able to discern quality of IMGs based on country. Anecdotal evidence should not substitute for sound evidence.

[NLengr]

What on earth are you talking about? Canadian medical education is highly subsidized. The bank loans are nothing compared to what US medical students have to take out.

 

The schools are highly funded by the provinces, but the costs for each student are still quite high (tuition probably averages around 15k per year, plus all the other associated expenses add up), so many med students end up owing large amounts in loans.

 

US students owe way way more.

[A-Stark]

Where are you getting your statistics? There has been a steady rise in the number of IMG's enrolled in FM for several years, namely because its one of their biggest quotas - and the seats have increased every year. The same goes for us CMGs - the number matched and seats has increased.

 

The 2012 CAPER National IMG Database Report: http://www.caper.ca/~assets/documents/2012_CAPER_National_IMG_Database_Report.pdf

 

Absolute numbers have certainly increased, but the proportion of IMGs in FM has gone down.

 

you are right, i went back to read that he did in fact say "some". Although I still can't imagine how one CMG can have enough experience with IMGs to make sweeping generalizations and then some how even be able to discern quality of IMGs based on country. Anecdotal evidence should not substitute for sound evidence.

 

You may not be able to "imagine" that, but I've worked with many, many other residents and it is obvious that many IMGs do not get adequate clinical experience coming into residency. Eventually most will be fine but as R1s I've seen some pretty questionable clinical skills and especially confidence in said skills even if they are present. The Caribbean grads tend to be most heterogeneous - some ace their USMLEs and luck out with quality clerkship rotations; others really don't and it shows.

 

The absolute worst clerk who's been on my service was an elective student from the Caribbean; her knowledge was poor but her work ethic and sense of sense of responsibility were worse. Another Caribbean clerk was okay, but faced a horrible situation inasmuch as her school was in the process of shutting down before she'd graduated!

 

Anyway, most CMGs have adequate knowledge and skills, but there are more than a few who are arrogant or lazy or lacking in sound judgement. Unfortunately CaRMS doesn't really provide much of a filter for these people, and while some end up getting unmatched because they're obnoxious, many end up being a pain to deal with as they rotate on my service.

[hotmail]

I do not know how much money be founded for CMG in medical school. But I do know lots of over see Medical school are profit driving. You can pay money then you can get in, And little clinic training.

 

CMGs have two years in clinic training, and must pass each of rotation. In the clinic training, CMGs did lots of job to take care people, and on call for 30 hours with almost nothing. But they are in hopes to get in Residency program.

 

I do know how much money founded by governments for residency. a lot money!

 

 

Now, I hope CMGs doing good for this year second round.

[NLengr]

I do not know how much money be founded for CMG in medical school. But I do know lots of over see Medical school are profit driving. You can pay money then you can get in, And little clinic training.

 

CMGs have two years in clinic training, and must pass each of rotation. In the clinic training, CMGs did lots of job to take care people, and on call for 30 hours with almost nothing. But they are in hopes to get in Residency program.

 

I do know how much money founded by governments for residency. a lot money!

 

 

Now, I hope CMGs doing good for this year second round.

 

Last I saw it costs the government on average $875k to train a specialist.

[BoyInTheBubble]

Last I saw it costs the government on average $875k to train a specialist.

 

Wow!

 

Return of service for everyone!

[aaronjw]

Last I saw it costs the government on average $875k to train a specialist.

 

 

it is with this reason why I scoff at physicians and some on this board who get their jimmies in a knot when they tout professional autonomy to comments about forcing location of practice on them as a means of trying or ensure equitable access for people in this country who afforded them a low-cost opportunity to become a doctor in the first place.

 

To know that physicians threaten to leave (and some do) to the US or elsewhere on the basis of fee adjustments/corrections for their services (gainful employment is another matter) is putrid when factoring in what taxpayers in them to attain the privileged status of Doctor.

[coastalslacker]

Last I saw it costs the government on average $875k to train a specialist.

 

That's such a meaningless number.

 

When you look at the work residents do, what they are paid, and what it would cost to have a fully licensed physician do the same work, residents save money hand over fist. I more than paid back any government subsidies to medical school and residency during the course of my training.

 

I heartily recommend the book "How to Lie with Statistics" by Darrell Huff, cerca 1954.

[NLengr]

That's such a meaningless number.

 

When you look at the work residents do, what they are paid, and what it would cost to have a fully licensed physician do the same work, residents save money hand over fist. I more than paid back any government subsidies to medical school and residency during the course of my training.

 

I heartily recommend the book "How to Lie with Statistics" by Darrell Huff, cerca 1954.

 

Oh I agree. Medical trainees save the government money when you look at the overall picture.

 

Cost is probably the wrong word. I should have used something like expenditure. Either way it's a number they can use when budgeting. It doesn't reflect net value to the govt.

[aaronjw]

That's such a meaningless number.

 

When you look at the work residents do, what they are paid, and what it would cost to have a fully licensed physician do the same work, residents save money hand over fist. I more than paid back any government subsidies to medical school and residency during the course of my training.

 

I heartily recommend the book "How to Lie with Statistics" by Darrell Huff, cerca 1954.

 

Suggesting your training was more than paid back is to make a claim that your skills were comparable to that of fully paid staff during your training years. You were being paid for time -not skill because you didn't have any yet.

 

I recommend the book "You're Not As Good As You Think You Are" by Chris Gudgeon, 1997 lol

[NLengr]

Suggesting your training was more than paid back is to make a claim that your skills were comparable to that of fully paid staff during your training years. You were being paid for time -not skill because you didn't have any yet.

 

I recommend the book "You're Not As Good As You Think You Are" by Chris Gudgeon, 1997 lol

 

Is there a book "You're an idiot?" I can reference?

[aaronjw]

Is there a book "You're an idiot?" I can reference?

 

right here!

[A-Stark]

Suggesting your training was more than paid back is to make a claim that your skills were comparable to that of fully paid staff during your training years. You were being paid for time -not skill because you didn't have any yet.

 

I recommend the book "You're Not As Good As You Think You Are" by Chris Gudgeon, 1997 lol

 

I'm being paid a very generous $80 for an overnight in-house call, or a bit more than $4/hour.

 

So... may I ask what exactly you're doing on this forum at this point? Are you actually in med school yet? I'm growing weary of your smug snark. Anyway, if I don't have any skill I probably shouldn't be on cardiology call Monday but... I am. I'll make sure to thank my staff for allowing me to stay in hospital overnight and helping him bill $150 per consult.

[keeponkeepinon]

The 2012 CAPER National IMG Database Report: http://www.caper.ca/~assets/documents/2012_CAPER_National_IMG_Database_Report.pdf

 

Absolute numbers have certainly increased, but the proportion of IMGs in FM has gone down.

 

 

 

You may not be able to "imagine" that, but I've worked with many, many other residents and it is obvious that many IMGs do not get adequate clinical experience coming into residency. Eventually most will be fine but as R1s I've seen some pretty questionable clinical skills and especially confidence in said skills even if they are present. The Caribbean grads tend to be most heterogeneous - some ace their USMLEs and luck out with quality clerkship rotations; others really don't and it shows.

 

The absolute worst clerk who's been on my service was an elective student from the Caribbean; her knowledge was poor but her work ethic and sense of sense of responsibility were worse. Another Caribbean clerk was okay, but faced a horrible situation inasmuch as her school was in the process of shutting down before she'd graduated!

 

Anyway, most CMGs have adequate knowledge and skills, but there are more than a few who are arrogant or lazy or lacking in sound judgement. Unfortunately CaRMS doesn't really provide much of a filter for these people, and while some end up getting unmatched because they're obnoxious, many end up being a pain to deal with as they rotate on my service.

 

Which page should I be looking at?

 

It seems that you have worked with "many, many" and I myself have not. The few I have worked with were fairly comparable to the average CMG. These of course were the Caribbean residents. I haven't worked with many irish grads but I do recall a preceptor discussing that many Irish grads while having Canadian exposure spent much of their time acting as glorified observers when back in Ireland. Personally I am not gonna make such prejudicial comments, I think in the end it doesn't really matter where you went to school and should be judged on your merit.

[goleafsgochris]

it is with this reason why I scoff at physicians and some on this board who get their jimmies in a knot when they tout professional autonomy to comments about forcing location of practice on them as a means of trying or ensure equitable access for people in this country who afforded them a low-cost opportunity to become a doctor in the first place.

 

To know that physicians threaten to leave (and some do) to the US or elsewhere on the basis of fee adjustments/corrections for their services (gainful employment is another matter) is putrid when factoring in what taxpayers in them to attain the privileged status of Doctor.

 

I don't know your story, but you sound like a premed talking over his head. For now ill continue to enjoy the fact that Im a resident and Ill go wherever the **** I please. I guarantee no resident or staff will agree with you. Also residents save money by doing grunt work in the hospital.

[A-Stark]

Which page should I be looking at?

 

It seems that you have worked with "many, many" and I myself have not. The few I have worked with were fairly comparable to the average CMG. These of course were the Caribbean residents. I haven't worked with many irish grads but I do recall a preceptor discussing that many Irish grads while having Canadian exposure spent much of their time acting as glorified observers when back in Ireland. Personally I am not gonna make such prejudicial comments, I think in the end it doesn't really matter where you went to school and should be judged on your merit.

 

Table 5 "Canadian Faculties of Medicine" on page 10.

 

That's not entirely untrue of Irish grads either.

 

Anyway, I will say again that MUN clerks continually impress me. I'm sure my classmates would have studied more if we'd had to write NBMEs for everything, and we'd probably work more independently if we were expected to. (Of course it would help if my former centre had some semblance of efficiency on its wards.)

[aaronjw]

I don't know your story, but you sound like a premed talking over his head. For now ill continue to enjoy the fact that Im a resident and Ill go wherever the **** I please. I guarantee no resident or staff will agree with you. Also residents save money by doing grunt work in the hospital.

 

Of course they won't agree with me for they have an inherent bias just like my friends who loathed unions prior to becoming teachers and who now think they're the cat's meow

 

I don't require agreement from people who can't recognize or at least marginally acknowledge the faults that exist with investing exorbitant training costs without some measure of guarantee that those investments will be used to serve the needs of the country which provided them in the first place.

 

I'll stop with this line of thought here as further mention really doesn't serve much purpose.

[A-Stark]

Are you intimating that there's some large efflux of newly-certified specialists to the US or elsewhere? Because that might have been true in 1994, but absolutely isn't now. The only issue is that some of those new specialists can't get full-time or permanent positions because governments and health authorities and hospitals will only pay for so much OR time, nursing hours, and procedure time.

 

As for the notion that we won't be "serving the needs of the country", how many more uncompensated hours a week will I have to work to satisfy armchair critics like you?

[NLengr]

Are you intimating that there's some large efflux of newly-certified specialists to the US or elsewhere? Because that might have been true in 1994, but absolutely isn't now. The only issue is that some of those new specialists can't get full-time or permanent positions because governments and health authorities and hospitals will only pay for so much OR time, nursing hours, and procedure time.

 

As for the notion that we won't be "serving the needs of the country", how many more uncompensated hours a week will I have to work to satisfy armchair critics like you?

 

I'm pretty sure he'll only be satisfied when physicians are all required to be members of the military and therefore able to have their charter rights violated at the governments whim.