Matching To Toronto Im?

[betacell_cumberbatch]

Hi all!

 

Congrats to everyone who has matched! Thought this would be an ideal time to pose these questions as everyone has a fresh perspective on it. Now I'm a first year med student. Yes it seems a bit high-strung of me to be thinking so much about CaRMS this early, but my school has actually been pushing for it. 

I ideally want to match to Toronto (born and raised a city boy with a strong interest in research/academic medicine) and I'm interested in matching to IM at the moment. Don't worry, I'm still going to apply broadly and play it safe. I have heard the pros and cons about their program a lot, but mixed responses about the challenges I'll face matching there. I don't go med school in Toronto (still in Ontario however).

So my questions are: what are some tips you have for me to achieve my dream match of IM at Toronto? I do quite a bit of med onc/rad onc research during the school year, so I think I will be ok on that part if it's important. However, would I also need to consider networking more in Toronto, particularly with the residency program coordinators? 

Thank you for your advice in advance!

[mononoke]

I think for now, doing the research is great, maybe consider doing some of it in Toronto over the summer. When you're starting to do electives, doing some electives here in Internal will be the most helpful when it comes to networking. 

[321izme]

From my experience, research is not that important as I know people with productive Masters and MD/PhDs who did not get an interview or did not get in after the interview. I did not have any research experience and was successful.

 

I think strong reference letters and a genuine sounding personal letter (e.g do not lie about loving research when you clearly don't!) play a bigger role than a CV. Try to get letters from well known and established UT faculty during your core IM clerkship rotation. You also don't need a trillion electives in Toronto outside your core IM rotation. McMaster and Ottawa have great programs too so you should do electives there. Don't do all CTU electives and burn yourself out either.

 

For a good letter: show up on time or slightly early, participate respectfully in rounds/pimping sessions, don't talk in order to look like the smartest clerk in the room as it rarely helps (I.e. if youre asked a question and you know the answer then say it. If the resident just messed up an answer you knew and then the staff asks you, tell the staff you would prefer if they asked someone higher in the chain), be nice to everyone all the time and volunteer (happily) to see that extra consult/do the extra task.

 

Try to take it easy on non IM rotations so you can relax!

[betacell_cumberbatch]

From my experience, research is not that important as I know people with productive Masters and MD/PhDs who did not get an interview or did not get in after the interview. I did not have any research experience and was successful.

 

I think strong reference letters and a genuine sounding personal letter (e.g do not lie about loving research when you clearly don't!) play a bigger role than a CV. Try to get letters from well known and established UT faculty during your core IM clerkship rotation. You also don't need a trillion electives in Toronto outside your core IM rotation. McMaster and Ottawa have great programs too so you should do electives there. Don't do all CTU electives and burn yourself out either.

 

For a good letter: show up on time or slightly early, participate respectfully in rounds/pimping sessions, don't talk in order to look like the smartest clerk in the room as it rarely helps (I.e. if youre asked a question and you know the answer then say it. If the resident just messed up an answer you knew and then the staff asks you, tell the staff you would prefer if they asked someone higher in the chain), be nice to everyone all the time and volunteer (happily) to see that extra consult/do the extra task.

 

Try to take it easy on non IM rotations so you can relax!

 

Wow thanks for the in-depth reply! Of course, thank you to you too mononoke! Just a (probably dumb) question: I can do my core IM clerkship rotation in Toronto? I was under the assumption that clerkship rotations could only be done at your med school. 

[321izme]

Wow thanks for the in-depth reply! Of course, thank you to you too mononoke! Just a (probably dumb) question: I can do my core IM clerkship rotation in Toronto? I was under the assumption that clerkship rotations could only be done at your med school.

Totally did not see that you were from a non UT Ontario med school. I did not attend UT for med school either. In that case doing ~3-4 weeks of electives is sufficient. I did 4 weeks so I was more likely to get at least one staff for 2 weeks who could then write me a letter. After getting one UT staff to write you a strong letter, you don't need to do more electives. Once you get your elective hospital site, ask around for who the good and important staff are at that site. Then email the UT coordinator asking to work with those specific staff to guarantee you a letter from a credible referee.

[betacell_cumberbatch]

Totally did not see that you were from a non UT Ontario med school. I did not attend UT for med school either. In that case doing ~3-4 weeks of electives is sufficient. I did 4 weeks so I was more likely to get at least one staff for 2 weeks who could then write me a letter. After getting one UT staff to write you a strong letter, you don't need to do more electives. Once you get your elective hospital site, ask around for who the good and important staff are at that site. Then email the UT coordinator asking to work with those specific staff to guarantee you a letter from a credible referee.

Awesome! Thank you so much! 

[LittleDaisy]

Did you ask your friends from UofT to know who is or are the good and important stuff? For example, I have a 3 week elective set up at UofT in IM specialty. I could email Sheila Binns to work with those specific staff?

Totally did not see that you were from a non UT Ontario med school. I did not attend UT for med school either. In that case doing ~3-4 weeks of electives is sufficient. I did 4 weeks so I was more likely to get at least one staff for 2 weeks who could then write me a letter. After getting one UT staff to write you a strong letter, you don't need to do more electives. Once you get your elective hospital site, ask around for who the good and important staff are at that site. Then email the UT coordinator asking to work with those specific staff to guarantee you a letter from a credible referee.

[LittleDaisy]

Never make your residents look bad, make them look good, and you will be rewarded! 

From my experience, research is not that important as I know people with productive Masters and MD/PhDs who did not get an interview or did not get in after the interview. I did not have any research experience and was successful.

I think strong reference letters and a genuine sounding personal letter (e.g do not lie about loving research when you clearly don't!) play a bigger role than a CV. Try to get letters from well known and established UT faculty during your core IM clerkship rotation. You also don't need a trillion electives in Toronto outside your core IM rotation. McMaster and Ottawa have great programs too so you should do electives there. Don't do all CTU electives and burn yourself out either.

For a good letter: show up on time or slightly early, participate respectfully in rounds/pimping sessions, don't talk in order to look like the smartest clerk in the room as it rarely helps (I.e. if youre asked a question and you know the answer then say it. If the resident just messed up an answer you knew and then the staff asks you, tell the staff you would prefer if they asked someone higher in the chain), be nice to everyone all the time and volunteer (happily) to see that extra consult/do the extra task.

Try to take it easy on non IM rotations so you can relax!

[ellorie]

 

 

If the resident just messed up an answer you knew and then the staff asks you, tell the staff you would prefer if they asked someone higher in the chain)

 

Agree with the rest, but that part seems a little weird to me.  Never seen anybody do that.  I wouldn't jump in on a senior's question if nobody asked me, but if asked, I'd totally answer.  And if a clerk did that to me, I wouldn't be offended as long as they weren't shitty about it.  Maybe this is the culture of my specialty.  I'd probably just feel kind of silly and look it up for next time, but I'm ok with that.  It's part of learning.

 

When it comes to doing well on electives, residents are also a great resource.  If I know clerks are trying to look good, I will help them look good as much as I can, show them how particular staff like things to be done, help them get positive attention, tell them who to work with.

[ralk]

Agree with the rest, but that part seems a little weird to me.  Never seen anybody do that.  I wouldn't jump in on a senior's question if nobody asked me, but if asked, I'd totally answer.  And if a clerk did that to me, I wouldn't be offended as long as they weren't shitty about it.  Maybe this is the culture of my specialty.  I'd probably just feel kind of silly and look it up for next time, but I'm ok with that.  It's part of learning.

 

When it comes to doing well on electives, residents are also a great resource.  If I know clerks are trying to look good, I will help them look good as much as I can, show them how particular staff like things to be done, help them get positive attention, tell them who to work with.

 

Yeah, never had to back down from answering a question that was open to me just because a resident got it wrong. I might hedge my answer a bit, to make it clear that I'm uncertain in my answer (which has usually been the case, residents don't tend to miss questions a clerk can easily answer), but I'd never refuse to answer or intentionally throw a question.

 

I would never want to intentionally make a resident look bad - or anyone really - but there's plenty of room to stay on the residents' good sides without having to play dumb.

[A-Stark]

From my experience, research is not that important as I know people with productive Masters and MD/PhDs who did not get an interview or did not get in after the interview. I did not have any research experience and was successful.

 

I think strong reference letters and a genuine sounding personal letter (e.g do not lie about loving research when you clearly don't!) play a bigger role than a CV. Try to get letters from well known and established UT faculty during your core IM clerkship rotation. You also don't need a trillion electives in Toronto outside your core IM rotation. McMaster and Ottawa have great programs too so you should do electives there. Don't do all CTU electives and burn yourself out either.

 

For a good letter: show up on time or slightly early, participate respectfully in rounds/pimping sessions, don't talk in order to look like the smartest clerk in the room as it rarely helps (I.e. if youre asked a question and you know the answer then say it. If the resident just messed up an answer you knew and then the staff asks you, tell the staff you would prefer if they asked someone higher in the chain), be nice to everyone all the time and volunteer (happily) to see that extra consult/do the extra task.

 

Try to take it easy on non IM rotations so you can relax!

 

I can't speak to UofT specifically, but references and a well written personal letter help you get in the door. The interview is the make-or-break portion, though, and it is helpful to "know" people already at that point. I'm not sure how easy that is in a massive program like Toronto IM. The residents don't even all know each other. 

 

As for your suggestion, I really hope that the OP isn't so far gone that they need to be told to be "respectful" while on a team. Show up on time, work hard, take initiative, ask lots of questions, and try to meet with site coordinators or even the program director if feasible. You can certainly volunteer to do that extra task, but don't overdo it. There's a fine line between a "keener" and a "gunner" and if your resident or staff tells you to go home, you will not impress by offering to do something else (unless, I suppose, you were just that enthusiastic/interested). The key is appearing (and being) dedicated but always very normal and easy to get along with. 

 

In other words, being a hard worker is important; being someone that's enjoyable (even "outstanding") to work with is utterly essential. Don't lose sight of that. 

 

Agree with the rest, but that part seems a little weird to me.  Never seen anybody do that.  I wouldn't jump in on a senior's question if nobody asked me, but if asked, I'd totally answer.  And if a clerk did that to me, I wouldn't be offended as long as they weren't shitty about it.  Maybe this is the culture of my specialty.  I'd probably just feel kind of silly and look it up for next time, but I'm ok with that.  It's part of learning.

 

When it comes to doing well on electives, residents are also a great resource.  If I know clerks are trying to look good, I will help them look good as much as I can, show them how particular staff like things to be done, help them get positive attention, tell them who to work with.

 

 

Agreed. If you're asked a question, answer it. Don't talk over anyone else to show off, but don't pretend you don't know, and certainly don't ask to "defer" the question. That just makes it seem like you either don't know or are something of an oddball. 

 

On the other hand, if you do go out of your way to show up the residents, you might find your application winds up in the "do not rank" pile. Above all, program directors will listen to their residents if they didn't like working with a med student. 

 

(Of course, I will allow that Toronto is something of a thing unto itself, such that "weirdness" might be more tolerated there than elsewhere. So maybe I'm wrong. But just don't be weird and don't be a jerk and don't be a gunner. We like our clerks to be friendly, helpful, open to learning, and maybe even a bit efficient.)

[Lactic Folly]

 I wouldn't jump in on a senior's question if nobody asked me, but if asked, I'd totally answer.  And if a clerk did that to me, I wouldn't be offended as long as they weren't shitty about it.  

 

I might hedge my answer a bit, to make it clear that I'm uncertain in my answer (which has usually been the case, residents don't tend to miss questions a clerk can easily answer), but I'd never refuse to answer or intentionally throw a question.

 

Agree - one way to do this is phrase your answer as a question (is it ---?), or say that you just read about, or were just taught something, if that happens to be the case. Avoid body language / tone of voice that might be construed as self-satisfaction or delight in knowing something that someone else didn't.

 

Back to original topic: I do remember someone whose goal was IM in Toronto who did summer research there, though I think the value was more the connection to the IM program rather than the research itself.

[mononoke]

Agree with the rest, but that part seems a little weird to me.  Never seen anybody do that.  I wouldn't jump in on a senior's question if nobody asked me, but if asked, I'd totally answer.  And if a clerk did that to me, I wouldn't be offended as long as they weren't shitty about it.  Maybe this is the culture of my specialty.  I'd probably just feel kind of silly and look it up for next time, but I'm ok with that.  It's part of learning.

 

When it comes to doing well on electives, residents are also a great resource.  If I know clerks are trying to look good, I will help them look good as much as I can, show them how particular staff like things to be done, help them get positive attention, tell them who to work with.

this right here is the kind of resident I would want to work with

[ACHQ]

Having matched to UofT IM from UofT, I would strongly suggest listening to 321izme, they are wise.

 

If anyone wants to know "important" people in the IM program at the various sites (especially GIM, harder for subspecialty), PM me.

[Huron]

On the other hand, if you do go out of your way to show up the residents, you might find your application winds up in the "do not rank" pile. Above all, program directors will listen to their residents if they didn't like working with a med student. 

 

The biggest truth about CaRMS you don't find out about until later in med school: never underestimate the power of the resident veto card. They don't always choose who gets into a program, but they can definitely choose which people don't get a chance.