Guest Aidan Posted October 17, 2003 Report Share Posted October 17, 2003 I know that UofT only uses MCAT scores as a "flag", and that the MCAT does not count towards your academic score, but does it really truly not matter AT ALL as long as you meet the cut-offs? I suppose my question to the experts is: can a spectacular MCAT score help you get into UofT, or is it of no consequence once it meets the 9/9/9/N requirement? Would it add anything to the application, or would it be practically ignored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chiapet921 Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 Hi there!~ Well, I'm not an expert, but knowing that our GPAs, essay and MCAT scores are reviewed by 2nd yr. med students (probably not reviewed ONLY by them...), anything that is not baseline will stick out with a good impression...just think about a job interview...if candidate A comes in with a great looking resume and candidate B has an ok one...who will leave you a better impression? The application process is biased, as all things are in life.... But really, if our scores are all put into some type of mathematical formula to generate a rank, then I don't think it'd make a big difference unless you have a 45T or something...if you have that, they'd call YOU to come to their school... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jacksonchan85 Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Hi, I thought it was 3rd year students who screen apps? Also, what happens if the med students know some of the applicants - wouldn't that make for some biased judgement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chiapet921 Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Hi there!~ No, I've heard (and also its been mentioned on this board) that it is 2nd yr. meds who review the essays... It's to my understanding that before reviewing the files, they are probably given instructions that if they come across an applicant that they know, they should be given another application to review...I'm sure the moderators may have more reliable information re: this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UTMed07 Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 I know that UofT only uses MCAT scores as a "flag", and that the MCAT does not count towards your academic score, but does it really truly not matter AT ALL as long as you meet the cut-offs? I don't have the impression high scores are a bonus. There are a few people in my class that I know didn't make all the cut-offs. Also, fair or unfair, I've been on the board long enough to see a few people with excellent numbers get the reject (from U of T). As for interviews, as far as I know, the interviewers don't know what your numbers are (--they don't know your GPA and MCAT). Those things said, others school will surely like your scores and value 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peachy Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 I thought that U of T interviewers had access to our entire application, but I guess I'm not sure about it. Nevertheless, I also doubt that high numbers is much of a bonus if any. If I ever become a student interviewer in 2nd year, I personally wouldn't care at all if somebody had high MCATs - I don't think it's much of an indicator of anything. Also, if high MCAT scores were a bonus in any way, then why wouldn't this information be made available? After all, if U of T publishes that you need 9/9/9 to get in, and somebody really wants to go to U of T, then presumably they won't make getting 15's a goal, they'll make getting 9's a goal. It seems silly to penalize applicants, in a way, for trusting the information released by the school. I'm sure that student interviewers (and faculty interviewers, for that matter!) do not interview applicants that they know. I feel like there was an old thread about this somewhere at some point, but I can't find it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maury1274 Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 I must say...I love the point made by peachy...I too agree that the MCAT is not an indicator of anything. I love hearing about people who got in with low mcat scores and that did soooo much to help out in their community. That's the way it should be. I feel that involvement and great grades are way more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest studentz Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 I am not sure that I agree that the MCATs don't predict anything. In fact, it's been shown that it has at least some predictive value wrt how ppl. do in med school. Plus, I don't believe the official "an A is an A regardless of where it came from" approach of Canadian schools. The MCAT supposedly allows schools to see how well applicants can process new info (as opposed to regurgitate trivia, and we've all had those exams) in a standardized way. Putting too much emphasis on grades leads to the problem of different standards and practices. For instance, in my bioethics class the prof only gives letter grades & a 90 is the absolute max (A ) whereas a prof teaching the "same" class at another school who uses numbers could award a 100%. Yet in both instances the student has earned the maximum mark. In the end though, hundreds of those who are rejected would make good docs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peachy Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 I'm sure we could discuss the usefulness of the MCATs at great length, but let's not. I just want to point out that for the three Ontario schools that require the MCATs, your score (officially) basically (with a minor difference at UWO) doesn't matter as long as you meet the cutoffs. I think it's reasonable for Ontario students to write the MCATs, then, and not put much effort into raising their scores beyond the cutoffs. For which reason alone, I would hope that anybody in the position of looking at someone's application would ignore the MCAT score. It's not really fair to lie about published requirements and then give a "bonus" for doing better, imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest seedstrike Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Hey, My understanding is that for Ontario schools, MCATs are only used as a flag to send out interview invites. On the other hand, if you are applying to American schools, its a whole new ballgame there. MCATs could be do or die in the states (I say this based on experience). Great MCATS coupled with a mediocre interview will likely get you into one of the thousands of medschools in the states. So thats one incentive to do well. Afterall, American schools are also an option if canadian schools don't work out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest studentz Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 "I think it's reasonable for Ontario students to write the MCATs, then, and not put much effort into raising their scores beyond the cutoffs. " Who does this? I don't know a single person who wrote a mock exam, got a 9 or 10 avg and said, "I met the cut-off, that's enough studying for me." I would imagine that most people try to do as well as possible on it and if the score happens to be at or just above the cutoff they're happy, as opposed to setting their ceiling at 10. Why should someone on an adcom ignore test results simply because, as you say, Ontario students don't attempt to do their best on the exam? Is that not a reflection of the exam writer? Before I get flamed, I should clarify that I am talking about goals going into one's FIRST MCAT. If someone writes, gets a 30P and meets the cutoffs, there's no reason to rewrite if he/she is only applying in Ontario. Does anyone object to the argument that the MCAT is the only standardized way of comparing applicants (academically) from two different schools? For discussion: The difference between a 40S vs a 30P & does it mean or show anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peachy Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 Who does this? I don't know a single person who wrote a mock exam, got a 9 or 10 avg and said, "I met the cut-off, that's enough studying for me." ... Is that not a reflection of the exam writer?I did. I was confident that I'd meet the cutoffs for Ontario schools, which was all that I cared about, and decided that my time would be better spent working on my summer job than studying to raise my score. If that's a reflection of my work ethic, then I'm just fine with that. Why should someone on an adcom ignore test results simply because, as you say, Ontario students don't attempt to do their best on the exam? Is that not a reflection of the exam writer?I believe that if their official policy is "it doesn't matter what you get beyond the cutoffs" then that should be their real policy. It is dishonest and unfair to applicants to lie about policies, imho. Does anyone object to the argument that the MCAT is the only standardized way of comparing applicants (academically) from two different schools?I personally don't agree. I know too many clever and knowledgable people who had difficulties with the MCATs. I (personally, and you are more than welcome to disagree ) think it's primarily a test of one's ability to do well on standardized tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tweep0 Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 Hi, I initially agreed that the MCAT was a horrible way of judging a person's ability to study and practice medicine. I know many very smart people (3.97 OMSAS GPA) that do not do well on the MCAT (verbal). People who's first language is not English do relatively worse on the Verbal Reasoning, even if they write and speak fine (you cant do well in university without writing and reading effectively). However, writing and preparing for the MCAT was a great learning experience. By preparing for the verbal reasoning and writing sample sections, I really improved by critical reading skills and essay writing style. I discovered the many interesting topics of study by reading VR passages in music, art, politics, etc. Would I do it again? HELL NO!!! But like the writing of the Med application, I think the MCAT is more useful as a preparatory tool for medicine and life more than a measure of your ability and aptitude for medicine. My two cents Tweep PS. I may be so positive about the MCAT because I did fairly well. Forgive me if my opinions sound greatly biased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cptn med Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 Hey Guys, Your discussion was very interesting, and since you are all experienced with the MCAT I was hoping you could answer a couple of quick questions. I am quite new at all of this, but very interested. Once you write the MCAT (assuming you do well) is it good for a couple of years? If you don't make the cut, is there a length of time before you can write again? I also wanted to say that I believe that you can never completely assess someone's ability based on a standardized test or even a 3.5 vs 4.0 GPA. As far as GPA goes, some degrees are more subjective (e.g.: commerce) and some are more standard (e.g.: chem). Not that they aren't difficult, but rather that the grader has less control in one and more in the other. Obviously you must be academically successful in Medicine, but other factors should weigh very heavily as well. I see a good physician as an all-round "type" of person not a GPA or Test score. But thats just my $.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mydream88 Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 Hi cptn med, we may want a moderator to confirm this statement but here is what I think: the MCAT is 'good' for five years for schools in Ontario. For schools outside Ontario, it depends. Some schools (including within Ontario which I am sure you are already aware ) do not require the MCAT at all while others do and the MCAT has an expiry date. In the states, the MCAT can be written maximum two years prior to submitting your application and I think this is as well the case at McGill. I am not sure about the other schools, all the statistics are swimming together in one corner of my brain!! hope this helps, mydream88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cptn med Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 Thanks mydream88 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest studentz Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 3 yrs for many schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest studentz Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does anyone object to the argument that the MCAT is the only standardized way of comparing applicants (academically) from two different schools? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I personally don't agree. I know too many clever and knowledgable people who had difficulties with the MCATs. I (personally, and you are more than welcome to disagree ) think it's primarily a test of one's ability to do well on standardized tests. _____________________________ I don't know about that. I don't think there's a "standardized test personality" or anything like that. Each test attempts to measure different things. For instance, I know several ppl. who did very well on their SATs and not as well on the MCAT and the opposite is true as well. Anyone who's seen a LSAT knows the type of thinking required is completely different than that of the MCAT. That's precisely why people with 3.9 GPAs sometimes do poorly on the MCAT; the exam claims to test a certain mode of reasoning that some people a)aren't good at, b)aren't familiar with, or both. It doesn't mean the individual isn't "smart," but it does indicate that they may not be as good as others at what the exam tests. It's up to the schools to decide how much they value the qualities the MCAT measures, which for the most part involve quickly analyzing new information and applying related factual information to solve novel problems. It is not a test of content; if the schools were looking for that they would probably have us write GRE subject tests. Once they do decide how they deal with the scores, I agree they should stick to it. That doesn't mean I agree with how they currently handle the scores though. As for aiming for the cut-offs based on mock exams, that's a very risky strategy considering one's score is determined by how well he/she scores in relation to the other people writing the same version/series of the exam. You may get more correct than in the mock exams yet get a lower score if enough people who wrote it with you did better. Imagine the difficulties adcoms have in coming up with their criteria:eek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kirsteen Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Hi there, Regarding the last comment above, it's gotten me thinking: for those of you familiar with propensity score analysis, it could be an interesting approach to medical school admissions that could be an option for schools to adopt in the selection process. That is, do an analysis of the propensity of students to succeed in medical school based on a number of possible factors, all of which could be fitted in a logistic regression model and then use the results to weight selection factors in the selection process. Does anyone know if any schools have attempted this? I wouldn't be shocked if McMaster have given this a go. Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cheech10 Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Hi Kirsteen, The study you talked about has been done, in a number of settings. In partcular, here is an article from the McMaster experience: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entr...t=Abstract The results: "Undergraduate GPAs were found to have the most utility in predicting both academic and clinical performance. Scores derived from the simulated tutorial did not predict future performance. The MCAT Verbal Reasoning score and the personal interview were found to be useful in predicting communication skills on the LMCC Part II." (emphasis added is mine). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kirsteen Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Hi there cheech10, Thanks for the link. I took a look at it, but it seems that they've used a straight regression model, and evaluated the predictors in the model, as opposed to propensity scoring, which is a little different (it incorporates regression, but takes the regression a little further, generally adding an additional step that separates the group being studied into quintiles). At present, propensity scoring is used quite commonly in the private sector, and is a hot and emerging approach in the medical realm (among observational studies, it's also known as a pseudo-randomized approach, and you probably have already garnered from lectures that randomization is often heralded as the grand poohbah of study approaches). In any case, I think it may have some potential in the use of evaluating medical school applicants, and potentially help to reduce some bias in the selection process. I'd hedge some bets and say that Mac would be one of the first to incorporate it, and I'd love to see how. Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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