Dartmouth Vs. U of T

[Guest BananKing]

Maybe I'm confused here, but I thought the University rankings such as the ones published by Maclean's are based on the entire University's medical/research performance. This includes (for the most part I assume) the research productivity, funding for the scientists, reputation of the scientific faculty, etc... I don't think the ranking reflects the quality of the undergraduate medical (MD) program itself. The faculty of medicine at UofT includes much more than just the medical school component. It includes all the graduate departments in the biomedical sciences. When we talk of the funding, productivity and reputation of the schools that make up these ranks, the criteria I would think would be mostly at the scientific research level and the cutting edge facilities the school has to offer. (If that makes any sense...) They don't really tell you anything about the quality of the ACTUAL medical school program. If this is all wrong, then I apologize, but that's how I've always interpreted it.

[Guest peachy]

This discussion started off by comparing Dartmouth to U of T as an institution, and the discussion reflected that, talking about Dartmouth as an Ivy vs U of T. If the OP was interested in a specific comparison of the medical program, then he'd have to look that up for Dartmouth, as I suspect that none of us knows anything about how Dartmouth runs their medical school...

[Guest tim23]

that doesn't seem to have anything to do with medical school specifically, but does look a lot better then Macleans rankings, I looked at their ranking scheme and its based upon research/awards from faculty. It would be a good indicator of overall graduate school level stuff, I don't see how you could correlate it to undergrad though.

 

I think the reason you are being 'attacked' for you comments about U of T is that you were so quick to say that Dartmouth was better, when you really didn't know that much about them other than they were Ivy league, thats kinda the same thing that some of us are doing about U of T when we don't know as much about it as you do. I couldn't tell you which school has a better undergraduate medical education or which one gives you a better chance of matching residencies in the US, but for graduate level medical work and specialties, you'd have to recognize that U of T is one of the top institutions in the world right now.

[Guest Kara]

All its doing is comparing undergradute universities against each other...

 

Not sure what you mean by undergraduate university since many of those universities have medical schools and medical research is taken into consideration in those rankings. Moreover U of T is known internationally for it's medical research as mentioned. U of T is recipient of many awards in medical research (including Nobel) and other important discoveries in medicine. I think this is legitimate criteria for one considering doing post-graduate work in medicine. I agree that this may not be the best criteria about which is the best medical school for a given individual, but it allows some comparisons to be made. Comparing U of T to Darmouth wrt objective measures like awards, publications, funding, discoveries in medical research, I think U of T easily comes ahead. I agree with you that it has squat to do with whether it will make you into a good doctor but then any such comparisons would be difficult if not impossible to make.

[Guest studentz]

endingsoon,

 

who exactly are all these people you are talking too? It's understandable that US pre-meds or med students wouldn't be that knowledgable of Toronto or any other Canadian med program but McGill since McGill accepts a lot more Americans than anywhere else and thus the other schools are of no concerns to most Americans. I bet most Canadian pre-meds don't know anything about US schools that don't accept Canadians. Who really cares what the hell the general public thinks. I guarantee you that if you ask 100 average people which medical school is better, Princeton or Washington U, the majority will say Princeton, despite the lack of a med school there. A similar survey was done in Canada, by the Globe and Mail, and York's fictional med school received votes. Now, ask residency directors, and that's a different story. In addition to the programs you mentioned, a quick google search will show that UofT grads also matched to Massachusetts General's radiology program, in consecutive years, plus neurosurg. at the New England Medical Centre, jointly affiliated with Harvard and Tufts. Considering how few people go to the US each year from the school, that's pretty impressive.

 

Furthermore, you're entire justification for Dartmouth being better than Toronto is that it's an Ivy. Well, Brown is an Ivy and nearly every med student there was accepted out of high school. That throws your whole york vs brock vs whatever, Canadian med school selectivity means nothing arguement out the window. Furthermore, regarding York, I know for a fact that there is someone at Stanford med (unquestionably an elite med program) that came from York.

 

Again, the best thing for the OP to do would be to sure up the spot at Dartmouth and then see what happens here. He/she should make the decision based on which school best meets his/her top priorities for a med education, e.g. class size, dual degrees, location, curriculum,extra time for research. At the very least, the OP should be very happy that he/she will be a doctor, and will receive a great education, regardless of the school that's ultimately chosen.

[Guest PLT]

This is honestly insane.

I can't believe how vigorously you UofTers are defending it. You'd almost think it WAS Harvard.

 

Rankings are useless and not med-specific, there is no way to be sure you're comparing apples and apples in regards to med school funding numbers, and there is no way you can know what the vast majority of residency program directors think. Is it impossible to believe that an established and prominent Ivy league like Dartmouth has the connections and prestige to recruit great teachers and to produce successful doctors that match and perform well? Maybe even better than the UofT?

 

I don't even buy the argument that program directors know better than the general public regarding prestige and quality of instruction. You come from Ivy it looks impressive. Yes U of T is good too, but the reason I posted is because I'm dissapointed in the general lack of objectivity from what should be a scientific and intelligent group. This thread is so emotional and polarized, why can't you admit it's tough to compare these two schools and see both sides of the coin?

[Guest cheech10]

PLT, how are university professors recruited? For the most part, it has to do with research funding and facilities that the university can offer. Top medical research brings top medical faculty. UofT's medical faculty has a great reputation within the academic community. McGill's used to be better, but funding problems in Quebec led to most of their top faculty being poached by UofT. Dartmouth on the other hand has a poor medical faculty (from friends in the U.S.). Also, all programs are not created equal. Ivy league schools (for the most part) are reknown for their undergraduate programs, not their medical programs, as an earlier poster pointed out regarding Brown and Dartmouth. For a better idea of their reputation, check out studentdoctor.net , a site similar to this one but catering to U.S. schools. Brown and Dartmouth come up nowhere in the discussion of top schools.

[Guest neypongwah]

You guys are such tools for having this argument.

 

Why does any of this matter anyways?

 

If you are a U of T hopeful (and since you are posting on this site, I am assuming are), you obviously are motivated to attend U of T Medicine so who gives a $#! whether it is Canada's Harvard or Dartmouth or whatever. You obviously see the benefits to attending U of T and would probably take the opportunity if you received an offer.

 

To those of you who already attend U of T Medicine, why do you feel the need to defend your institution? If you are insecure about your decision to attend, then that is your issue to deal with. If you are engaging in this argument because you want to brag about how amazing U of T is... then please stop. That is exactly the kind of attitude that re-affirms certain stereotypes about U of T Med students. Besides, shouldn't you be studying right now?

 

:rollin

[Guest peachy]

so who gives a $#! whether it is Canada's Harvard or Dartmouth or whatever

The original poster asked specifically for people to share their thoughts about why they would choose Dartmouth vs U of T. People here were posting in an attempt to be helpful to that specific person. If trying to be helpful "re-affirms certain stereotypes", then so be it.

 

Please do not post messages insulting people personally ("you guys are such tools") - it's inappropriate here.

[Guest neypongwah]

[Guest wattyjl]

i'm not getting something here... the only evidence in support of dartmouth being a great school is that it is supposedly "ivy league". this was somehow used in support of arguing that it is infinitely better than anything canadian schools have to offer. individuals responded that this is hardly reasonable evidence and offered some information on why UofT is actually a good/leading-edge/better than @#%$ institution. so far this seems pretty reasonable, doesn't it? supporting an argument with real evidence as opposed to using an abstract opinion.

 

now we have people posting that the those arguing in favour of not simply bashing a canadian school because it's not an american "ivy" are UofT fanboys and shouldn't get so worked up over things.

 

nobody's getting worked up over anything, other than me getting worked up because it seems some people don't know what constitutes evidence that supports an argument.

 

for example, how can medical research funding be irrelevant to undergrad med. education? of course it's relevant: more funding = better research = recruitment of top faculty. it will be members of this faculty, at least in part, that give lectures and run tutorials for med students. others have pointed this out, hopefully it's now more obvious for those who can't read between the lines.

 

i agree this thread has become somewhat sidetracked, but PLT, don't feel people are attacking dartmouth more than they are just presenting reasons why UofT is not automatically an inferior school and is in fact worth your (and others') consideration. this is the question after all isn't it?

[Guest wattyjl]

sorry - one last point... i feel compelled to argue with this as well:

 

PLT:

 

"I don't even buy the argument that program directors know better than the general public regarding prestige and quality of instruction. You come from Ivy it looks impressive."

 

 

obviously program directors will know more about quality of instruction than the general public, since their job is to recruit students and thus they need to have a pretty good idea how good the institutions they are coming from are. i don't believe that you actually meant to suggest otherwise, because that would be ridiculous

 

as for prestige, sure, the public will have a perception of what school they think is better. i'm not sure why you care about this - does it matter if your patients know where you went to school? are you intending on wearing a sign that specifies? i know who will care - program directors for residency positions. and they will be paying a lot less attention to the 'reputation' your institution has. (i agree that if you want a US residency than it's possible "dartmouth" will be recognized more often that "UofT", though who really knows without going an polling a group of PDs, right?).

 

as for your last comment, i think most posters do recognize that it's pretty hard/impossible to objectively 'rate' either school against one-another. the only way to answer the question at all (since there isn't one person, nevermind a sufficiently large group, that has attended both dartmouth and UofT for medschool) was too look at ranking systems and other reasons (funding) that might help stratify the schools. now you've got that info - but i'm not sure what else you were expecting?

[Guest caliente]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. What constitutes "better" depends largely on what you want out of your education. And, it all has to do with stats.

 

For example, if you wanted to do research during medical school, perhaps UofT would be a good choice simply because they receive a lot of funding. However, this does not mean a student coming out of Queen's will not, or cannot, become an excellent and highly-respected medical researcher. Perhaps it is less likely, but I don't think research is as heavily emphasized at this school AND students self-select: research-oriented med students naturally gravitate towards UofT. UofT may have more students, resources, and funding... but it does not guarentee a prestigious research career, and it does not preclude anyone not from UofT from having immense success.

 

To the original poster: if you are aiming for prestige AND want to practice in the States, I'd recommend Dartmouth. Does this mean somebody from UofT (or Queen's, Mac, UWO, etc) can't get an excellent US residency? NO, of course not. But it makes more sense if you want to practice in the States. Although Dartmouth may not be part of the holy trinity of Harvard-Hopkins-WashU, and is outside the top 20, it certainly is not a shabby school. You will get respect (whether deserved or not) simply because of the Ivy League association.

 

If you are very good, it doesn't matter what school you go to. The top schools like Harvard will recruit the "best" (I know I'm using many quotation marks, but I cannot adequately define what this silly little word means). However, if you are average, a name like Dartmouth has more potential to help you out.

 

Harvard has many international students, and so should be familiar with the international academic scene. Schools that don't take many foreigners may be hesitant to offer a residency spot to a Canadian-educated med student. Also, medical schools in the states, for the most part, have an inherent bias towards US-educated students (makes logical sense). This is where I think Dartmouth will really give you an edge IF you want to do residency in the States.

 

Somebody argued that we should be using real evidence to look at this situation. However, PERCEPTION or SUBJECTIVE factors play a large part in determining what is BETTER.

 

Lots of medical research funding does not mean professors will be the kind of teachers whose classes I actually WANT to attend. I don't want to do research, so I am looking for schools that have friendly and personable profs. However, this is probably useless because ALL schools have good and no-so-good profs. It is virtually useless to poll students over an online forum since you have no way of judging whether they reflect you (i.e. have a similar personality, so their opinions might be more useful to you). Also, just poll people in your own classes right now: some people absolutely love my program and cannot imagine having done anything else, while others loathe the choice.

 

Basically, I feel the original poster's definition of "better" had more to do with subjective factors that do not always correlate with the amount of research funding, etc. Both schools are good and produce competent doctors. Common knowledge, but I'll state it anyways: Going to a prestigious institute like Dartmouth (or UofT) does not guarentee a top-notch residency. Through my work, I've met some people who went to top-top schools and yet have only slightly-above average jobs; some of these people expected a whole lot more from the prestige of their school/degree, and thus are rather bitter.

 

Bottom line: if you want to practice or do residency in the States, go to Dartmouth as it will open up more residency doors for you. If you want to save money and stay in Canada, go to UofT. Assuming you get in, of course. Does anybody find it kind of amusing that this whole entire discussion (or has it escalated to an argument yet?) may be moot if the OP doesn't get into UofT? I hope you do get in to the places you want, but I've never been a big fan of counting chickens before they hatch. I just cross the bridge when I get to it. Enough of the cliches, lol. GOOD LUCK!

[Guest peachy]

Bottom line: if you want to practice or do residency in the States, go to Dartmouth as it will open up more residency doors for you. If you want to save money and stay in Canada, go to UofT.

Lots of U of T students get good US residencies. For example, take a look at this list of U of T MD/PhD alumni. So, I don't know if I'd call this "the bottom line" as if all the other comments in this thread are irrelevant. Obviously, the original poster is going to decide based on a number of factors, and not going to blindly listen to what a bunch of anonymous internet posters tell him to do!

[Guest caliente]

Peachy...I don't see how my comments really are that different from your post. I've already said that polling over an online forum is perhaps not the best way to get info. And, I was actually thinking more along the lines of getting ANY decent residency in the States, not just good ones. I'm think more of myself...I will probably be just average, certainly not "tops". Therefore, it would PROBABLY be harder for me (as a hypothetical average student) to get a decent US residency spot if I had attended a Canadian school. I don't know the motives of others for wanting a US residency, but for me, I'd want to do a US residency only if I was planning to also practice in the States and/or become a US citizen.

 

I obviously didn't express myself clearly as I think your post actually supports my beliefs. The UofT alumni who got good US residencies probably did well in school, and would have done well regardless of whether they went to school in the US or Canada. Schools want good students, regardless of their nationality, med school attended, etc. From personal experience, I believe mediocre students benefit from being associated with a name.

 

Finally, I've lost sight of the whole entire point of a forum like this!! I don't know the other posters and our respective opinions don't matter much (and may not even be remotely relevant or true). If I can just use this idea to train myself not to come back...it's like watching an awful car wreck. At least I won't have internet come summer. Happy discussion, y'all

[Guest peachy]

Peachy...I don't see how my comments really are that different from your post.

Yeah, I agree with much of what you wrote, but I just personally hate it when people write stuff like "The bottom line is" or "I've said it before and I'll say it again", because it sounds to me as if you're trying to invalidate the discussion that went before, and I don't think that any of us can really confidently state what that "truth" is in this case, and these kinds of threads tend to get into a fight after a while, so it's good to be extra-polite, imho. But, I am probably just crabby because we have an exam coming up and I ought to be studying. :\

[Guest caliente]

Sorry...I'm not inherently "Canadian" yet (I'm not American, though :lol ), so I still have not adopted the reserved/polite manner that is so prevelant around here. I assume that everybody understands my posts would purely be my opinions since this is what I assume of others (perhaps I am just cynical...I automatically question if people actually have done the "research" they say they have in their posts).

 

I also should be studying. I've given myself a limit of 25 posts, and then it's cold turkey. Is there a way to unregister? I'll look in to that. 24 down, 1 more (irrelevant) posting to go

[Guest caliente]

Finally...perhaps a bit (a lot) off-topic, but it does relate kind of to the whole Dartmouth vs. UofT debate (i.e. US vs. Canada).

 

Do you, as Canadians, ever tire of being called "nice" or "polite"? It is a good reputation to have and perhaps is part of the culture here, but do you feel it is a fair reputation? I am Canadian now, but not of this "culture". In general, I find Canada more reserved (less boisterous...don't know if I am adequately expressing myself), but not necessarily more or less nice or polite than the Americans I've met in the midwest...just different. However, I would rather be in Canada for political reasons.

[Guest nibhoshk]

First of all, thank you for all the insight and support provided thus far.

 

The only reason I am asking now rather than the end of May, is becasue when Canadian medical schools tell you your final status (whether you are rejected, waitlisted or accepted), one only has 2 weeks to respond and put down a deposit. Therefore I would rather do my research now and make an informed decision then.

 

Once again thanks for all the help:)

[Guest Kara]

I was under the impression that many rich/powerful people (those that rule the rest of us-either economically or politically) tend to have their kids study at so-called "Ivy-league" schools to establish future connections with others with power (whether financial or political). So some big dude owner/share-holder of a major mutinational corporation or major political/government figure is going to send his kids to such a school often to get connected with other powerful families, etc. from around the globe and the US in particular since that is where many of their kids end up. Often this has little to do with choosing the better academically rated program (although the two are related).

 

These kids aren't going to be workers (sociologists, pharmacists, doctors, researchers, etc.) like most of us; they're going to be the owners and/or political figureheasds. For such individuals connections to other powerful families/groups is very important. So the fact that some big huncho from U of T/or other Canadian university/powerful Canadian politician sends his kids to an Ivy league school versus a Canadian one IMO doesn't necessary imply their belief in lack of academic rigour at the home university but more likely the type of students that tend go to Ivy schools (i.e. rich and powerful). They're going to such schools not to simply get a degree from a good university but to establish proper powerful connections. This is more likely to occur in private Ivy-league institution than say in a publicly-funded Canadian or American university.

[Guest wattyjl]

caliente - i would agree with you - any experience i've ever had with americans at an individual level has been positive, i don't think canadians as people are inherently nicer or more polite (etc. etc.) than americans as people.

 

obviously when considering the politics (domestic and foreign) of the two countries, it's easy to see why canada gets labelled as 'nice' and america as 'a selfish bully'. (or, for those capitalist warmongers among us, substitute in 'weak' and 'strong', respectively )

 

i have the sense that canadian culture, in general, is more accepting and more tolerant, but i'm not sure if this is actually the case, or again it's just a reflection of the current politics/political parties in power or what their media chooses to spew out.

 

finally, however, i can't resist thinking that if one were to ask americans (and canadians) some variation on the question 'should america (or canada, respectively), lead the world?" that more americans would say yes than would canadians. but that has nothing to do with politeness and i'm way off topic...

 

oh yea, out of interest, can i ask what 'you are, inherently'?

[Guest studentz]

I'm with wattyjl on this; the thread would have been 5 posts long, not three pages, if Dartmouth wasn't Ivy. If you go to a Canadian school, especially one of the more prominent ones, dismantle your USMLEs and get good evals, you have a good shot at a US residency. In fact, your biggest obstacle would probably be matching in the first iteration of CARMS, which would bump you from the US match (neurosurg, ophtho and some others in the States may match earlier than in Canada, since it's a separate match designed to allow people to see where they are going before ranking separate PGY1 programs)

 

People from friggin St. George's in Grenada match very well, to all specialties, and at some very elite programs. Again, you can always do electives in the US (though UofT apparently won't automatically cover you for malpractice). All things considered equal (i.e. USMLE, good evals), I don't think Dartmouth would give you a big advantage unless you want a residency specifically at Dartmouth itself. If we were talking about Penn, Yale, Stanford, UCSF etc. it would be a different story.

 

Look, here are some things to consider. Dartmouth will let you extend your schooling by a year or two to do research. UofT may not, but has more areas of strength in basic & clinical medical research. Dartmouth has several dual-degree programs; if you're interested in MD-MBA for instance, Tuck is one of the best business schools in the world. Dartmouth's hospital is about 10 years old or so. It's in a small town. Toronto has a much larger catchment population and you may be exposed to more procedures; I don't think Dartmouth even has an Emerg residency. Again, check the curriculum, see where you're most comfortable, then decide. But don't give up the spot yet.

 

By the way, to the person who called us tools (why you bothered to read so many of these posts I don't know), I'm not at UofT med and it's not a clear first choice for me at the moment. I just don't think the "Dartmouth is an Ivy" reasoning is sufficient and the OP would probably benefit from everyone's opinions since they may raise points he/she didn't consider.

 

And yes, US News is prone to fluctuations. Boston U shot up to 28 simply because it got $100 mil in NIH funding for a biodefense lab.

[Guest peachy]

Sorry...I'm not inherently "Canadian" yet (I'm not American, though :lol ), so I still have not adopted the reserved/polite manner that is so prevelant around here. I assume that everybody understands my posts would purely be my opinions since this is what I assume of others

I don't think it's really a "Canadian" thing. This board happens to be (strongly) moderated, and we have chosen to have a polite tone in order to sustain high-quality written discussion. I would compare the tone of these forums to those at televisionwithoutpity , where the posters are primarily American. They also have moderators who apply rules that posters need to be polite and respectful of other opinions. I think that's similar to what we do here.

 

The other aspect is that unlike SDN, the community of students posting here is relatively small. Our chances of running into eachother in real life are pretty high, especially for the many of us who have posted identifying information about ourselves, so it makes sense to act professional here!

[Guest caliente]

wattyjl - I'm neither this or that, here or there. I'm not going to get into the specifics, but my username is a spanish word (lol, there are many spanish-speaking people in this world, and it's just a silly relic since I don't really speak spanish anymore). I haven't been in Canada long enough nor been away from Canada long enough to be anything other than jumbled up (or messed up, however you prefer to see it).

[Guest drews97]

Let's be honest here...where you do your undergrad education really doesn't matter. There is a standard exam that all med students must write called the LMCC. Any school you go to in Canada will adequately prepare you for this exam. One of the sources that most students in the country use for review for this exam is called the Toronto Notes. It is a review package put out by U of t students each year. I attend Queen's and we were taught (not that I remember it all!!) most everything in that book. I would argue that the only time the actual school matters is when you're looking into residency. Here certain schools will prepare you better in certain programs than others. Undergrad is undergrad, every school will prepare you for being a doctor. Each has a slightly different take on how they get you there. Don't worry so much about the quality of the med school...if you have a choice just go where you think you'll get the most out of the program (ie://will do you do better in Queen's where we have exams only once a semester? or in U of A where they have exams much more frequently) and where you want to hang out for the next 4 years!!

 

Also, don't make the mistake of equating research dollars with quality of your undergrad education. It's fair to assume that schools with the most research $ will attract the best researchers, but even if these people teach you there is no guarantee they will be good teachers! For the first 2 years of med school (if you go to a traditional school ie://not Mac or U of C) you'll be stuck in a classroom, and for the last 2 years you'll be in clerkship. Unless you're doing an MD/PhD the amount of research that your school does won't impact your undergrad education. Occasionally we would have a lecture from a research leader in his/her field and I often found these to be the worst lectures because they present you with a bunch of esoteric data that is unimportant to know unless you're doing a fellowship in that area!!