Dartmouth Vs. U of T

[Guest nibhoshk]

Hey Everyone,

 

I am a Canadian Citizen (born and raised in Toronto where I attended undergrad) and have been accepted to Dartmouth Medical School.

 

As well, I had 5 interviews at the Canadian Schools (U of T, U of A, U of Ottawa, McMaster, Queen's) but I don't found out about these schools until May 31st.

 

If you were in my position, would you attend Dartmouth or attend the Canadian Schools. At present, if I were to be accepted, I prefer to Attend U of Toronto of all the Canadian Medical Schools. However, I don't know which one is better; U of Toronto or Dartmouth.

 

At this time, I am not sure where I want to pratise?

 

I thank anyone for any suppport or help they provide,

 

Cheers

[Guest docbil]

Dartmouth is a great school.

 

MD/PhD you get full tuition and stipend. Nice package.

 

But... I think most people would choose a Canadian School over all others. You can always go there for Residency if you really want to go south.

 

I would put the deposit and wait to hear back from UofT or any other Canadian school.

 

Out of curiousity can you PM Stats for Dartmouth.

Thanks

[Guest endingsoon]

Wow congratulations!!!

 

It sounds like you have two separate issues here, which school is better and which one should you attend?

 

In terms of which school is better, its obvious, Datrmouth! Probably the best medical school in Canada in terms of international repuation is McGill. If you use the gourmon report, then I think Toronto and McGill end up being ranked. But I thought Dartmouth was ivy??? Really schools like Harvard, Yale, etc. don't have a Canadian equivalent...they are heads and shoulders above Canadian schools in terms of funding and the like.

 

If you are asking which one you should attend, then it is more complicated. The biggest question you need to ask yourself is where do you see yourself practicing? Ideally, it makes the most sense to attend school in the country you want to practise in. You can switch during residency, but it is easier if you are a local candidate for sure.

 

The next (and biggest question for most) is the cost. UofT, despite our lobbying and stuff against the high cost, is really quite affordable next to a US education. You will be looking at under $20 for tutition (and since you live in TO) likely can save some cash and commute. However, if you attend the US (unless you do the PHD as someone earlier pointed out) you will be set back a lot more, and in American funds to boot!

 

I don't think you can ask flat out which is better, a Canadian school or a US Ivy, b.c there is no comparison. Also don't let other people who might post and say 'All medical schools are equal' and stuff sway this fact: The bottom line is that US Ivy schools are better schools. Period.

 

The real issue is whether it is worth the added 'betterness' of Dartmouth in terms of cost. For most people, the answer is no. It won't make much enough of a difference to acutally justify that sort of expediture. However, there are those of us who must have the best things, no matter what they cost. That decision is totally up to you.

[Guest caliente]

I personally would stay in Canada since it is cheaper. However, I have a feeling finances will not be a limiting factor for you...

 

This is what I know about Dartmouth: it has a very good reputation (come on, it's one of the sacred Ivy Leagues). I think it is considered one of the lesser Ivies, though. I don't know specifically about their med school, but I assume it is a top-tier school. The only advantages I can see are a) the reputation/prestige factor and it'll be easier to get a US residency. However, even if you do get an American residency, you still may have some problems practicing in the US (I might be wrong...haven't done much research myself), ESPECIALLY given the political situation in the US and the tightened rules on immigration. You might have to practice 2 years in Canada before applying for immigration, etc.

 

I think if you got into Dartmouth, which has fairly high standards, you should be able to get into at least one Canadian school, especially since you had 5 interviews here. Even if you are waitlisted initially in Canada, there is considerable waitlist movement at some schools. You can always send your deposit to Dartmouth (hope it's not too much!) and see what happens with Canada...

 

For me, prestige is not important so I would not choose Dartmouth over a Canadian school. However, if it is important to you (and I think it is a pretty valid and reasonable factor), then perhaps Dartmouth would be a good choice, especially if you are leaning towards practicing in the States. It's impossible to predict the future - many people with Canadian educations go to the States to practice.

 

Cliche, but I'll say it anyways...what school(s) do you see yourself "fitting in" and enjoying yourself the most? In your post, you say you don't know which school is 'better'. 'Better' for what, or in what? If you can define more specifically what better means to you, you'll probably be able to choose the "best" school for you. If you want the best in terms of reputation, prestige, and resources regardless of the $$$, choose Dartmouth...

 

Sorry - I know this probably doesn't help you much, but that was just the proverbial 2-cents.

[Guest ttryit]

Cal, first off, congratulations!

 

Here's what I would do. Confirm at Dartmouth and wait on Canada. A bird in the hand is worth two (or perhaps up to five) in the bushes and you can always change your mind once you know the situation in Canada!

 

tt

[Guest tim23]

just thought I should clear some things up here....

 

U of T is the 3rd highest funded medical school in N. America, it goes Harvard, John Hopkins, U of T, atleast thats what I was told so it definetley has more money. It may not have as good a reputation as Dartmouth in the US but is probably just as good or better a school. Gourmen reported U of T as top 10 and school, I don't remember if Dartmouth was in there as well or not but its an old report anyway, a little out of date.

 

endinsoon I'm a little disapointed you don't have more pride in your school, maybe its not as good as they made it out to be in the orientation or something

 

Tim

 

 

for what its worty Dartmouth was ranked 35th in terms of research and 34th in terms of primary care in the US by US News, so I'm assuming Dartmouth is not one of the more well known US med schools.

[Guest endingsoon]

U of T is the 3rd highest funded medical school in N. America, it goes Harvard, John Hopkins, U of T, atleast thats what I was told so it definetley has more money. It may not have as good a reputation as Dartmouth in the US but is probably just as good or better a school. Gourmen reported U of T as top 10 and school, I don't remember if Dartmouth was in there as well or not but its an old report anyway, a little out of date.

 

endinsoon I'm a little disapointed you don't have more pride in your school, maybe its not as good as they made it out to be in the orientation or something but if I know these stats why didn't you?

 

Just because I attend a school doesn't meant that I need to blindly advocate for it and encourage people to come there. I am not a recruiter. As for knowing these stats...lol well to be honest I doubt anyone in my class does. I will openly tell people that I thought my undergrad was kinda @#%$, and that UofT medical school has its share of bad with its good. Just because I pay them money to attend school doesn't mean I have to be a mindless zombie and support them.

 

As for the 'orientation' lets not lose sight of the fact that they are indeed trying to recruit you, and they will say anything they want (within reason). Did they tell you that the Deans daughter attends Yale Medical School? hmm...doesn't make a lot of sense if UofT is top 3 now does it, when he will joke around that his daughter wanted to come to UofT, but she ended up in Yale?

 

I know a lot of people that attend medical school in the US (inc. Hopkins, etc.) as I used to live there, and TRUST me no one thinks UofT is no. 3 in North America. As for the stat you are quoting, it might have to do with some specific area of funding that UofT might be up there. You are kidding yourself to think that UofT even considers itself in that bracket overall, or in terms of money it gives its medical program.

 

I think someone said earlier what I was getting at, the issue of cost. You don't seem to care that much about cost (as you are asking whats the best schol) but I think for most of us, even if we got into Harvard, we would stick with the UofT's of this world b.c its hard to justify paying so much for the same MD tag.

[Guest tim23]

edinstoon:

you didn't like your undergrad? it would be a big investment for me to go there instead of U of M (if I get in to either) so any input against U of T would be helpful to me. You mentioned money, my situation is the opposite. Its about $100K difference so as you mentioned money do you think its worth it for U of T?

 

also, hate to call you out on this but I'm curious as I too am considering U of T...

 

This is from the U of T website:

 

Faculty appointees oversee more than $350M per annum in external research funding; and in the Fall of 2003, the Faculty of Medicine at UofT captured more than 25% of the national total of Canadian Institutes of Health Research (CIHR) operating grants.

 

This is from Dartmouth website:

 

Research awards to DMS totaled over $64 million in fiscal year 1999. The sum marked a 10% increase over FY98 and the second year of double-digit growth—a welcome turnaround from the decreases of a few years ago.

 

this is a bit old, but even if their generous 10% growth happened over each of the past 5 years and you factor in the difference of the dollar, U of T still has more than twice the funding as Dartmouth for medicine. I know sometimes things don't look as good when you see them first hand everything has its pros and cons but you can't argue with numbers.

 

Tim

 

edit: okay I found updated info from their site: Dartmouth's research funding last year was $126.8 million.

[Guest endingsoon]

you didn't like your undergrad? it would be a big investment for me to go there instead of U of M (if I get in to either) so any input against U of T would be helpful to me. You mentioned money, my situation is the opposite. Its about $100K difference so as you mentioned money do you think its worth it for U of T?

 

I did not actually go to UofT St. George (I went to Scarborough College). I was decent, but they were not too helpful and really all the information about medical school was self researched. There pre-medical socities were a complete joke compared to what you get downtown, and it just seemed like in general they were trying at every turn to tell you how hard it is to get into medical school, etc. Not the most encouraging enviornment, and the atompshere was much too like a highschool for my tastes.

 

UofT St. George is probably different I would imagine.

 

Would I spend $100k to do undergrad at Toronto (not md school, undergrad was what I thought you were talking about?). Probably not man...unless you really want the big city experience, where you do your undergrad wont matter too much interms of getting admission to md school. There are plenty of people in my class that went to windsor, brock, etc. (ie - smaller schools without md programs themselves). Manitoba even has its own MD program so thats probably a leg up in terms of its resources over the other areas.

[Guest studentz]

First, congrats on your acceptance!

 

I don't know how endingsoon can state that Dartmouth Med is better simply because it's an Ivy; the main Ivy medical powers are Harvard, Yale, Penn, Columbia and Cornell. Brown and Dartmouth are never lumped into that group and aren't considered one of the State's "elite" schools. It's admission standards, in terms of avg. GPA and MCAT, don't approach Toronto, McGill and most schools in this country for that matter. endingsoon's statement that Ivy's are simply better, period, is simply false. Here's the latest US News (research med school) ranking, take it with a grain of salt. On a personal note, there are maybe 10 schools on this list that I would consider taking above my top 2 Canadian choices, and only 4 that I definitely would:

 

1. Harvard University (MA)

2. Johns Hopkins University (MD)

3. Washington University in St. Louis

4. University of Pennsylvania

5. University of California–San Francisco

6. Duke University (NC)

7. University of Washington

8. Stanford University (CA)

9. University of Michigan–Ann Arbor

10. Columbia U. College of Physicians and Surgeons (NY)

11. University of California–Los Angeles (Geffen)

11. Yale University (CT)

13. Baylor College of Medicine (TX)

14. Cornell University (Weill) (NY)

14. University of California–San Diego

16. University of Pittsburgh

17. U. of Texas Southwestern Medical Center–Dallas

17. Vanderbilt University (TN)

19. University of Chicago (Pritzker)

20. Case Western Reserve University (OH)

20. Emory University (GA)

20. Northwestern University (Feinberg) (IL)

23. Mayo Medical School (MN)

23. University of Alabama–Birmingham

23. University of North Carolina–Chapel Hill

26. University of Virginia

26. University of Wisconsin–Madison

28. Boston University

28. University of Iowa (Roy J. & Lucille A. Carver)

30. University of Colorado–Denver and Health Sciences Center

30. University of Rochester (NY)

32. Mount Sinai School of Medicine (NY)

32. New York University

32. University of Southern California (Keck)

35. Dartmouth Medical School (NH)

 

**Dartmouth is #34 in the Primary Care rankings.

 

Ivy League simply refers to an athletic conference that the above seven schools and Princeton happen to be a part of. Having said that, Dartmouth's still a very good school. (Dartmouth's undergrad program is outstanding and the school is more of a liberal arts, primarlily undergrad school. Its business school is its best grad level program).

 

UofT is probably more known for medicine and has one of the continents largest medical "complexes" attached to any single medical school. It's clinical and biomedical research resources are far superior to Dartmouth's, but you have to think how much research matters to you.

 

I think the safe thing would be to, as someone already suggested, confirm Dartmouth and then wait to see what happens here.

 

In the meantime, consider the curriculum, location (as you know, they're in very different municipalities), facilities, and any other area of difference between the two and decide which factors you find most important. Also consider the other Canadian schools you may get into and see how Dartmouth would stack up against them in terms of your priorities.

[Guest Platinum84]

Anyone know where I can access a current version of the Gourman report for med schools? (preferably online)

[Guest studentz]

Gourman died, the report probably hasn't been put out for a while and if it has, it obviously wasn't done by him.

 

He never revealed how he came up with his rankings (it's a bit suspect, as he also ranked hundreds of undergrad majors which seems impossible to do). I think in his last one (~'97) McGill was top 5 in the world and Toronto top 10.

[Guest caliente]

I would argue that many of these "rankings" reflect largely prestige and international reputation...within reason, of course. What exactly is a "better" medical school anyways? One that will make you a "better" doctor? (What is a "better" doctor....you get my point...)

[Guest tim23]

I thought you ment undergrad med, sorry for the confusion

[Guest wattyjl]

before i read this thread i'd never even heard of dartmouth...

 

anyway, endingsoon, i'd like to hear your thoughts on why this is true:

 

I don't think you can ask flat out which is better, a Canadian school or a US Ivy, b.c there is no comparison. Also don't let other people who might post and say 'All medical schools are equal' and stuff sway this fact: The bottom line is that US Ivy schools are better schools. Period.

 

as others have pointed out it's difficult to assess 'a better doctor', but in terms of admission criteria, harvard and UofT look pretty similar:

 

Harvard:

average GPA: 3.8

average MCAT scores were:

Verbal-10.4

Physical Science-11.5

Biological Science-11.3

 

- at least for gpa (UofT i believe is 3.8+ average?). sure the mcat scores may be higher at harvard but i would guess that if UofT actually factored those in in a formal way they could easily be just as high.

 

so i'd just be interested to know (given all the other data regarding research funding, etc.) what you base your claim on?

 

james

[Guest Ollie]

As for the stat you are quoting, it might have to do with some specific area of funding that UofT might be up there. You are kidding yourself to think that UofT even considers itself in that bracket overall, or in terms of money it gives its medical program.

 

Hey,

 

Just to clarify, the stat for which UofT is #3 behind Harvard and Hopkins is for research funding and research productivity. The faculty does like to throw this number around (I heard it several times during Oweek), but it really has nothing to do with the quality of undergrad medical education and only has to do with research.

[Guest endingsoon]

Wow looks like some of you have done some good research on this!!

 

The Gourmon report (that I alluded to earlier) is quite outdated and really not used with any degree of authority b.c a lof of people simply do not believe that is accurately refelects the med school standings. Quebec is a province hurting for money, and when I interviewed at McGill even the residents said the place is falling apart...hard to believe its a top 5 medical school.

 

Where I am coming from is a little bit different than you guys: I used to live in the US and as such I know many people at the schools in the US. In talking to them I was able to acertain most of my information, as some of them are intimately involved with admissons both to med school and beyond.

 

In general, the only school that major US schools have heard of in Canada is McGill and maybe McMaster. UofT simply does not register with most of the schools as being a recongized instituation above and beyond the run of the mill.

 

In terms of Dartmouth, I admit I don't know much about the school other than it is Ivy League. I perhaps mistakingly intrepreted that to mean that we were looking at something expectional. Granted, those US med rankings do show it ranked a bit below where I thought (I was thinking it was top 20-25), but still I don't think it is a worse school than UofT.

 

I think someone hit it on the head as to what makes a better medical school. If you are looking at comparing US/Canadian medical schools, then you have to base this upon which medical school will best train you for a US residency and how does the school rank in that regard. In the US,not everything is equal. (ie - Howard is not Harvard). So, when trying to land residenices and fellowships, rep. does matter. I know that UofT has an indifferent reputation (ie - run of the mill, not 'outstanding' not 'poor') in the US. Schools like McGill and perhaps Mac (depending on the instituation) are recognized as schools that they know. I would assume that Dartmouth would at least be a recongized school, but admittdely I am not 100% sure in this regard.

 

That being said, we do have a couple of people this year in our class going to the US (ophtho at Cornell and Medicine at WashU), but we also have quite a few that did not get a lot of great interviews in the US either. A lot of that does depend on the USMLE, so its not all school dependant.

 

I guess in a rather long winded way I am just saying that based on people I have spoken to, UofT is not seen as anything but an average program (one that they don't know much about) whereas I would think Dartmouth would be better known.

[Guest endingsoon]

Harvard:

average GPA: 3.8

average MCAT scores were:

Verbal-10.4

Physical Science-11.5

Biological Science-11.3

 

Ah...I love talking about this simply because I spent a lot of time doing this 4yrs ago when i was applying. You my friend have made the mistake of equating a 3.8 in Canada with a 3.8 in the US.

 

In Canada (ie - UofT) people are admitted regardless of their ungraduate school of origin or program. So, 4.0 in advanced math at Brock is the same at a 4.0 in compsci at York is the same as 4.0 in waterloo comp. eng is the same as a 4.0 in women's studies at Ryerson. Looking at that example, I would dare anyone to say that achieving a 4.0 in compeng at Waterloo is easier than 4.0 at compsci in York. Not knocking York, but if you could pull of 4.0 at Waterloo you would be employed at NASA or Microsoft, depending on who snatched you first. So, someone with a 3.6 in CompEng at Waterloo would be overlooked in favour of a 3.9 at York CompSci in Canada. If you pulled off a 3.6 in Waterloo, you would probably be smarter and more hardworking than 99% of people in medical school, but you would have been rejected b.c of the lower GPA. Hence the average of 3.8.

 

In the US (ie - Harvard) schools look at what you did for undegrad and where you did it. So, a 4.0 from Howard Compsci is not a 4.0 from CalTech. They acutally 'rank' programs and schools against each other, so you are penalized from coming from a lesser school and a lesser program. If you know anyone at Harvard, ask them to tell you what their class did and where they did it...you will be pretty amazed to know that as Harvard is considerd the cream, it has its pick of the top students at the top schools in the top programs. So, while UofT and Harvard will admit students with 3.8 GPAs, the 3.8 to get into Harvard must be from a top-tier school and usually from a decent program (ie - premed, eng., etc.). UofT won't discriminate in the same way. Using my above example, a 3.6 from from CalTech might not get in (would likely need a 3.7-8!), but they would have a much better shot than your 4.0 from Univ. of Houston in compsci. It just goes to show you how high the standard of admission is at top level schools in the US.

 

You also have to see that getting into Harvard as an undergrad (no PhD/Masters) would pretty much require MCATS of 11-12+ across the board. But as we were talking about GPA, we can leave this for now.

[Guest caliente]

From what I gather from my cousins and friends in the States, EVERYTHING is ranked and scrutinized during the admissions process (including undergrad admissions!! ...compared to the States, applying to undergrad here is a joke for most programs).

 

Although many people hate standardized testing, the MCAT can be the fabled "great equalizer". I interviewed in the States and I go to Queen's University. Most of the interviewers had never heard of Queen's. I was told specifically by one person that MCAT scores are especially important for foreign applicants - i.e. good MCAT scores support a good gpa, while poor MCAT scores may make adcoms suspicious of a good gpa obtained at a questionable or unknown school.

 

Uhh...I can't remember the exact point I was trying to make with this post...lol. I'll just stop writing now :b

[Guest peachy]

In general, the only school that major US schools have heard of in Canada is McGill and maybe McMaster. UofT simply does not register with most of the schools as being a recongized instituation above and beyond the run of the mill.

I disagree with this. For the average layperson, definitely. For the average med student, probably. For the average medical researcher? Not a chance. There's no way that anybody who does research in biomedical sciences doesn't know that U of T is a centre with HUGE research productivity.

 

easier than 4.0 at compsci in York

Gee, thanks for choosing my exact degree to make fun of! Seriously, though, I know a number of people with 4.0 (or less) in compsci/math at York who were snapped up by MIT, Cornell, Stanford, and similar schools. I spent a summer doing CS research at an American ivy where virtually all the other students were from American ivies, and they considered my degree to be just as good as from anywhere else.

[Guest endingsoon]

Gee, thanks for choosing my exact degree to make fun of! Seriously, though, I know a number of people with 4.0 (or less) in compsci/math at York who were snapped up by MIT, Cornell, Stanford, and similar schools. I spent a summer doing CS research at an American ivy where virtually all the other students were from American ivies, and they considered my degree to be just as good as from anywhere else.

 

Would you feel better if I said UofT Scar. Compsci

 

I agree there are good students everywhere, and acutally some of the smartest people choose schools for reasons other than just the reputation. I know people at UofT Scar (a program that is by no means exceptional) working at IBM and stuff.

 

I was just pointing out that on the average, its hard to compare these programs with a top level program at a school like Waterloo, where Microsoft actively recruits.

[Guest Jochi1543]

Rankings should be taken with a grain of salt, oftentimes the difference between #5 and #15 in academic terms is hardly worth mentioning. My undergrad college in the States, ranked #25 on the US News rankings of liberal arts colleges, is the same selectivity level and has employed some of the same professors as college #11 (to which I had also applied and gotten in). The main reason why there's such a gap? College #11 has a MUCH greater endowment, which is one of the factors in the rankings. There are many other factors in US News that upon close inspection are rather irrelevant in terms of your individual student experience. So what if college #11 has over $1 billion in endowments? They have it in mutual funds and nobody can access it. Or seriously, how important is it to you that at college A, 98% of people who enrolled graduate, and at college B, it's 95%? However, all of these issues are looked at when US News ranks colleges, universities, and professional schools. I'm not familiar with the ranking system you're discussing, but this is just my general approach to ranking systems. In the end, stats on who gets in their 1st choice residency and word of mouth from physicians who interact with colleagues from other medical schools seem to be most noteworthy to me among all the other hoopla.

[Guest Kara]

This international ranking looked at publication, awards, nobel prizes, funding, etc. I tend to think U of T's academic productivity is far greater than Darmouth's. It's too bad Canadians don't see how good their universities are even though, others around the world do.

 

World-wide, Dartmouth isn't even ranked in top 100, U of T is top 25:

 

ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/...sities.htm

 

In NA and SA U of T is top 20, Darmouth isn't in top 50:

 

ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/...sities.htm

[Guest Kara]

ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500.xls

[Guest endingsoon]

This international ranking looked at publication, awards, nobel prizes, funding, etc. I tend to think U of T's academic productivity is far greater than Darmouth's. It's too bad Canadians don't see how good their universities are even though, others around the world do.

World-wide, Dartmouth isn't even ranked in top 100, U of T is top 25:

 

ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/...sities.htm

 

In NA and SA U of T is top 20, Darmouth isn't in top 50:

 

ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/...sities.htm

 

You know what...I am trying really hard right now not to let my blood pressure boil over, but

 

WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH MEDICAL SCHOOL?

 

There, got it out of my system...

 

You are simply posting a list of universities around the world ranked according to the stuff you said. This includes universities without medical schools, this acutally has jack all to do with medical school since there is no mention of medical schools anywhere!

 

How is this any different than the McCleans rankings, which everyone @#%$ out because they are talking about undergrad and not about medical school? Seriously, how are they even 0.00000000000000000000000001 % different?All its doing is comparing undergradute universities against each other...

 

Sorry if this comes off as being mean (which I am sure it looks like) but your line about 'Its too bad Canadians (ie -me) don't see...." kinda gets to you when you see that the evidence you are using to prove this has nothing at all to do with postgraduate, let alone medical, programs at all.

 

Look I don't know if you are even in medical school, but trying to judge me b.c I don't see how 'great' my university is sounds totally moronic when you consdier that you don't even go there. I go to that medical school, doesn't that give me the right to say what really goes on there? How is that chart relating undergrad programs more valid than the opinoions of someone who acutally attends the MEDICAL school? On top of that, I have acutally defended UofT around here quite a bit, sometimes even getting some peopel a bit angry!