Dental school debt in Canada

[mcz]

Hello, this is a topic I see talked about a lot on SDN due to the price of dental education in the States but I don't hear much discussion in regards to Canadian schools and was wondering about everybody's opinion on tuition at schools such as UBC (as an example) for students who are tackling the debt without help from family?

UBC's tuition for all 4 years is ~250k.. Add on living expenses for the 4 years and I'm thinking it'd come to around 350k (maybe too high?). I know most schools in Canada are much cheaper than this but a lot of students won't have the choice to pick between multiple schools due to the high standards in Canada.

From what I've read it seems like it would be manageable if you owned a practice. However, this isn't something everyone will be able to do or even want to do. Some people will work their lives as associate dentists or in other careers within the field. This is where the 350k becomes scary. There are different ways to tackle the debt but in any case I feel like you'll be sacrificing something major ie leisure time, being able to buy a house, kids etc. 

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As a personal aside, I got rejected from UBC post-interview this year and still really want to become a dentist. The cost wasn't something I thought about too much, I thought the money would be made back eventually. But after going through the application process and thinking more about my future from a financial standpoint I've kinda started to panic. I never looked to get into dentistry solely for the money but I did ofc hope to live comfortably. However, with that sort of tuition I feel like I wouldn't be able to take time to relax every once in a while or be able to afford having kids until I'm closing in on 40 (25 now).

What are your guys' thoughts?

[mcz]

btw the security question to make an account here was very difficult lol 

[etodil]

 The reason for fierce competition partly stems from the guarantee of employment and a comfortable lifestyle. If you feel that working like a slave to pay that debt back for few years is too much, then you would not be happy even if you got in and graduated @ UBC. Compared to U.S at least our loans don't accumulate as much interest so we are lucky in that regard. Also, even if you're well off (hypothetical) family were to pay off your tuition, would you not pay it back when you make $$ as an associate dentist or when you have your own practice?

I felt that the only advantage that rich people had entering dentistry was that they could purchase a million dollar practice upon graduation and go straight into making big $$$ --> making $$/time much more efficient --> allowing you to pay back the tuition, the original investment much faster=> but have your own practice remaining after couple years of self-employed work.

I read that it is a very difficult task to start up a new business, attracting customers and etc. I am unsure whether money can completely bypass this problem, so I hope those with more knowledge could answer you here.

[Compton]

I'll say that it isn't an easy road and there are many who have mentioned on this forum multiple times (recent grads, experienced dentists and to an extent dental students) that if you want to make money, there are better careers out there with less schooling and physical/mental stress. Recently, some students were given a survey at their dental school (by the student body, not the school) if they would have chosen dentistry with tuition + living costs reaching 500K. The question really becomes whether it is worth it at the end of the day for you. People enjoy this career and wouldn't do anything else but to say you'll be banking within a few years is pushing it. I would personally think only a handful of students have their parents fully financing tuition/living costs and buying a practice within 1-2 years of graduation. The vast majority would be taking out LOC, government loans and working as an associate for 5 years paying it back. Ownership isn't even on people's mind for years, especially with rising cost of living, mortgage, high tax brackets. In the end, I would just say choose to do what you enjoy and stick with it. I'm not making bank but I'm happy with my life style. Couple of my friends are physician assistants, PTs, NPs and make real good money with no debt after graduating and only really 2-3 years of schooling (on top of UG). Weigh your options and then move forward, you are still young so don't worry about your age.

[mcz]

3 hours ago, Compton said:

I'll say that it isn't an easy road and there are many who have mentioned on this forum multiple times (recent grads, experienced dentists and to an extent dental students) that if you want to make money, there are better careers out there with less schooling and physical/mental stress. Recently, some students were given a survey at their dental school (by the student body, not the school) if they would have chosen dentistry with tuition + living costs reaching 500K. The question really becomes whether it is worth it at the end of the day for you. People enjoy this career and wouldn't do anything else but to say you'll be banking within a few years is pushing it. I would personally think only a handful of students have their parents fully financing tuition/living costs and buying a practice within 1-2 years of graduation. The vast majority would be taking out LOC, government loans and working as an associate for 5 years paying it back. Ownership isn't even on people's mind for years, especially with rising cost of living, mortgage, high tax brackets. In the end, I would just say choose to do what you enjoy and stick with it. I'm not making bank but I'm happy with my life style. Couple of my friends are physician assistants, PTs, NPs and make real good money with no debt after graduating and only really 2-3 years of schooling (on top of UG). Weigh your options and then move forward, you are still young so don't worry about your age.

Thanks for the response. It's good to hear you're happy with your lifestyle, not making bank, but still happy. That's where I would like to be at if everything goes smoothly. And I like the idea to just do what you enjoy but I kinda scared myself by reading stories about people regretting their decision due to the debt and I'm finding it difficult to get a lot of opinions since the crazy cost of tuition is a relatively new thing.

Also that survey sounds interesting. Have the results been published? Obviously I'm not a dentist or even in dental school but personally, 500k would be pushing it unless I had some sort of connections for opening up a practice out the gate or was very very very business savvy which I'm not (although I can work at it). People who those 2 things apply to probably could probably manage the 500k but for me I think the burden of debt would outweigh my love for the profession tbh. But I'm not quite sure what the cut off number is because 350k is quite high as well. Not sure if the 5 years as an associate you mentioned would be enough time to clear it for most people.

[mcz]

13 hours ago, etodil said:

 The reason for fierce competition partly stems from the guarantee of employment and a comfortable lifestyle. If you feel that working like a slave to pay that debt back for few years is too much, then you would not be happy even if you got in and graduated @ UBC. Compared to U.S at least our loans don't accumulate as much interest so we are lucky in that regard. Also, even if you're well off (hypothetical) family were to pay off your tuition, would you not pay it back when you make $$ as an associate dentist or when you have your own practice?

I felt that the only advantage that rich people had entering dentistry was that they could purchase a million dollar practice upon graduation and go straight into making big $$$ --> making $$/time much more efficient --> allowing you to pay back the tuition, the original investment much faster=> but have your own practice remaining after couple years of self-employed work.

I read that it is a very difficult task to start up a new business, attracting customers and etc. I am unsure whether money can completely bypass this problem, so I hope those with more knowledge could answer you here.

Good points. I do think most of those students pay the money back to their parents so it does kind of turn out the same. Differences would be it not being as stressful to make the payments on time (or at least for me it probably wouldn't be) and not having to pay interest, but like you said we've got it alright in Canada in terms of that anyways.

And yeah I'd imagine it is very difficult from scratch so unless your great at business/marketing it'd be better to buy out a place that is established. Or if you're really lucky, inherit a place from a family member in the industry. It's hard to imagine myself getting myself into ownership because I'm not business savvy but I guess it's something that can be improved.

[cleanup]

Taking on 350k of debt simply for the 'privilege' of taking on another 1.5 million of debt to stare into people's mouths all day, have patients tell you "I don't like the dentist," and be at the mercy of the wellbeing of a dozen or more staff members objectively sounds like a dumb idea to a lot of people probably.

Just saying.

I do well because I don't own my own business, paid down my debt quickly, and try to work as smart as I can. But I didn't have nearly the debt load some people do. I simply do not envy the people shouldering full school debt, then buying a practice (on top of other life commitments) and a boatload of stress just for some bigger digits in their bank balance. 

Simply having the piece of paper giving you licensure to poke people in the face and having your name on the dotted line of a piece of paper that says you 'own' this building and the equipment in it is about 10% of the battle. There is a LOT of work, soul searching and freedom-sucking stress to be had to really 'reap' the rewards of being a dentist, I think. You really, really, really have to love it. Even some folks I know who are objectively massively successful in the field, have a ton of stress. Large financial commitments. Their lives are simply... complex and heavy. The responsibility burden is high. People really underestimate the amount you're taking on to do this.

I'm lucky in that all I have to worry about right now is getting to work and not hurting my body and making sure I treat my patients well. If I had the debt load of some of my classmates or owned a practice, I don't think I'd have found the effort worth it at all. I do enjoy being a dentist, but I simply don't see the objective reward in the level of effort some people have to go through to do what I do. And I certainly don't plan on doing this forever. There are a lot of other things to life than what you think your career should be. But people who tackle this endeavour are surrendering themselves to allowing 'dentisry' to define their existence for a large timespan to come. That is a heavy pill to swallow these days.

[Starburst]

Money should not be a factor honestly. If you're willing to practice up north, somewhere remote, or in the US then you'll pay your tuition back fairly quickly compared to classmates who choose to stay in the city (vancouver, toronto, or calgary). Plus, $350k tuition is the least of your worries compared to how much housing costs these days. So I wouldn't stress, or else you won't be able to sleep at night 20 years from now when you're trying to pay off your mortgage. 

[crackingup]

On 3/29/2019 at 2:11 AM, mcz said:

Hello, this is a topic I see talked about a lot on SDN due to the price of dental education in the States but I don't hear much discussion in regards to Canadian schools and was wondering about everybody's opinion on tuition at schools such as UBC (as an example) for students who are tackling the debt without help from family?

UBC's tuition for all 4 years is ~250k.. Add on living expenses for the 4 years and I'm thinking it'd come to around 350k (maybe too high?). I know most schools in Canada are much cheaper than this but a lot of students won't have the choice to pick between multiple schools due to the high standards in Canada.

From what I've read it seems like it would be manageable if you owned a practice. However, this isn't something everyone will be able to do or even want to do. Some people will work their lives as associate dentists or in other careers within the field. This is where the 350k becomes scary. There are different ways to tackle the debt but in any case I feel like you'll be sacrificing something major ie leisure time, being able to buy a house, kids etc. 

-------

As a personal aside, I got rejected from UBC post-interview this year and still really want to become a dentist. The cost wasn't something I thought about too much, I thought the money would be made back eventually. But after going through the application process and thinking more about my future from a financial standpoint I've kinda started to panic. I never looked to get into dentistry solely for the money but I did ofc hope to live comfortably. However, with that sort of tuition I feel like I wouldn't be able to take time to relax every once in a while or be able to afford having kids until I'm closing in on 40 (25 now).

What are your guys' thoughts?

I know quite a few people who didn't make it into ubc after the first year of interviews etc, but tried again and made it in on their second or third try - so don't lose hope if ubc is where you want to be (or the only choice given oop hurdles elsewhere). Of recent grads I know shouldering the heavy initial debt load, the vast majority do not have parents jumping in - and the usual plan as mentioned above seems to be a reasonable 5-7 year timeframe to work off the debt as an associate. That period of associateship allows you to not only pay off debt but also to  "get comfortable" with dentistry and broaden the experience base, before shouldering the immense headaches and responsibilities of owning a practice. While the "going up north"option is not necessarily the huge money-maker that some make it out to be, the trick appears to be to move around and be flexible in location to find a practice where you can be kept busy enough as an associate to work off that debt. But this objective is totally doable so I wouldn't stress over that right now if dentistry is what interests you. 

[mcz]

On 3/30/2019 at 5:06 PM, cleanup said:

Taking on 350k of debt simply for the 'privilege' of taking on another 1.5 million of debt to stare into people's mouths all day, have patients tell you "I don't like the dentist," and be at the mercy of the wellbeing of a dozen or more staff members objectively sounds like a dumb idea to a lot of people probably.

 Just saying.

I do well because I don't own my own business, paid down my debt quickly, and try to work as smart as I can. But I didn't have nearly the debt load some people do. I simply do not envy the people shouldering full school debt, then buying a practice (on top of other life commitments) and a boatload of stress just for some bigger digits in their bank balance. 

 Simply having the piece of paper giving you licensure to poke people in the face and having your name on the dotted line of a piece of paper that says you 'own' this building and the equipment in it is about 10% of the battle. There is a LOT of work, soul searching and freedom-sucking stress to be had to really 'reap' the rewards of being a dentist, I think. You really, really, really have to love it. Even some folks I know who are objectively massively successful in the field, have a ton of stress. Large financial commitments. Their lives are simply... complex and heavy. The responsibility burden is high. People really underestimate the amount you're taking on to do this.

 I'm lucky in that all I have to worry about right now is getting to work and not hurting my body and making sure I treat my patients well. If I had the debt load of some of my classmates or owned a practice, I don't think I'd have found the effort worth it at all. I do enjoy being a dentist, but I simply don't see the objective reward in the level of effort some people have to go through to do what I do. And I certainly don't plan on doing this forever. There are a lot of other things to life than what you think your career should be. But people who tackle this endeavour are surrendering themselves to allowing 'dentisry' to define their existence for a large timespan to come. That is a heavy pill to swallow these days.

Yeah that's pretty much what I figured in terms of owning a practice. I'm still a long way from seriously thinking about those things but I feel like I'd be more comfortable working as an associate largely because of the things you already said ie stress, going into more debt etc. The want of being able to pay off the high initial school debt asap is the only thing that made me mention it. I do think that the pros vs the cons makes it worth it for certain people though.

[mcz]

On 4/1/2019 at 8:31 AM, crackingup said:

I know quite a few people who didn't make it into ubc after the first year of interviews etc, but tried again and made it in on their second or third try - so don't lose hope if ubc is where you want to be (or the only choice given oop hurdles elsewhere). Of recent grads I know shouldering the heavy initial debt load, the vast majority do not have parents jumping in - and the usual plan as mentioned above seems to be a reasonable 5-7 year timeframe to work off the debt as an associate. That period of associateship allows you to not only pay off debt but also to  "get comfortable" with dentistry and broaden the experience base, before shouldering the immense headaches and responsibilities of owning a practice. While the "going up north"option is not necessarily the huge money-maker that some make it out to be, the trick appears to be to move around and be flexible in location to find a practice where you can be kept busy enough as an associate to work off that debt. But this objective is totally doable so I wouldn't stress over that right now if dentistry is what interests you. 

Yeah UBC is pretty much the only school I have a chance at in Canada lol so I'll def be applying again. And thanks 5-7 years sounds reasonable and that's a good point about remaining flexible about locations and moving around. I'm sure the employability that comes with the degree is what makes it doable and that's one of the reasons for the high tuition like someone else mentioned. Def not going to worry too much about this stuff right now, it was good to get some real opinions.