Options for High School Student as a Future Med Student

[Guest dmacdonald95]

{Hopefully this is in the right forum...I didn't see one for "Future-Premed" }

I am a high school student in Ontario and I am taking all Academic courses (aka University courses) except for Math. I didn't marginally well in Grade 9 Science and not-so-well in Grade 10 Science, although I have hunkered down and hope to do quite well on the exam.

 

My question is this: You need a BSc to get into medical school, but as I understand it you need to go to a University, and I will need to upgrade my Math (as well as repeat my Science, unless I can get 90's in the next 2 years)...what options do I have for this?

 

Do I go to a college and take courses to upgrade my math before going to University, or can I get my Bachelors from a College?

 

Second question: I really, really, really want to go to Johns Hopkins in the U.S. but I've been told it's unbelievably difficult to get into. Is this true? (As a backup plan I want to either go to McGill, or University of Western Ontario)

[Guest moo]

First off, you don't need a BSc to get into med school. Any bachelors degree will do... this includes, but is not limited to, BA, BCom, BASc, BSN, etc. You do not need a bio-science degree to get into med school. (I did math and physics before med school.) What you do need are the prerequisites: 1 year each of biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics. Some schools in the US require English and math as well.

 

"Colleges" by definition in Canada are two years and most, if not all, don't offer the traditional bachelor degrees. They may offer Associate degrees or other diplomas but these are generally not accepted by med schools. The word "college" in the US is used interchangeably with "university." Hence, going to a college in the US is the same as going to university. The "colleges" in Canada are referred to in the US as "junior colleges."

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "upgrading your math." You should take whatever math necessary to get admitted into a four year university.

 

Finally, have fun in high school. Don't worry too much about getting into med school yet.

[Guest PhansterZ]

Hey, since you're so young, you shouldn't worry too much about being a doctor. Just take it one step at a time.

 

Get good enough grades to make it into university first. It doesn't matter which degree you are aiming for in university, just make sure it's one that you will enjoy. Like moo said, take the prereqs in university such as the chemistry, organic chem, bio and english (this will also help you for your MCAT, which many med schools require).

 

For your second question, Johns Hopkins, along with Harvard, are regarded as the top research medical schools in the world. So yeah, it takes someone very special to get in (special as in writing a bestseller, winning an olympic gold medal, playing for a famous orchestra and building a hospital with their bare hands while volunteering in a third world country.. joking of course, but close!).

 

There's still plenty of time ahead of you for you to accomplish these things

[Guest dmacdonald95]

Thank you for your swift replies, and the help

 

What I mean by "upgrading my math" is that I took all Academic/University-prep core courses here in Grade 10 (English, Science, History), and I took an Applied (College-prep) course for Math.

 

Although I'm taking "U/C" (sort of the middle ground, harder than College-prep easier than Uni-prep...and the only option for people in my school who took College-prep courses in both 9 & 10) in Grade11 next year, I'm still pretty sure I'll need some sort of a course in College to prove that I have the requirements to satisfy University math requirements.

 

Oh, on the topic of "building a hospital with their bare hands while volunteering in a third world country", I'll be taking a Medical Co-Op to Ecuador for 12 weeks in "Grade 13" (aka Victory lap aka the semester after I graduate High school)

 

(Wow...I think ahead too much :| )

[Guest ploughboy]

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"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - military proverb

 

Hey there,

 

It's great that you're thinking so far ahead and have a sense of direction in your life, 'cuz a lot of people (of all ages) don't have that and they just sort of wander through life. Just be careful not to get too hung up on planning out your whole life in advance. Plans change, situations change, people change. Enjoy your time in highschool - date, hang out, bust curfew from time to time, get lots of sleep and...oh ya...try and keep those marks up. You might want to try and identify why grade 9/10 science and grade 10 math didn't go so well for you, and adjust your study habits accordingly. Developing good study habits now will serve you very well in the future (says the guy who's cramming a couple of weeks of renal physiology into one night of studying).

 

"A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?" - Robert Browning

 

Just out of curiousity, what's the attraction of Hopkins for you?

 

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[Guest PanjabiMD]

Hey, I am also a high school student, but next year I will be going to university.

 

I'm going to McMaster for engineering next year, but I still have the thought of medicine in the back of my head. My reasoning for doing engineering; I like math and physics and I don't like memorization courses (ie biology). More importantly though, I like to apply what I have learned.

 

You can do whatever degree you want during undergrad, as there are people from every disipline in medical school.

 

So, you have taken all academic courses so far, with the exception of math. I take it that you are currently enrolled in Applied Math right now? Are you doing U/C Math next year? I don't know if students with Applied can do U/C. Might want to check that out.

 

I would advise you to take Grade 10 Academic Math in summer school (if the deadline hasn't past already). After taking Grade 10 Academic, do Grade 11 U/C. This course will lead you into Calculus and Data Management.

 

Calculus is essential if you want to do anything other than a BA (arts degree). Data Management is useful for both BSc (Science) and BComm (Commerce). I took Geometry and Discrete instead of DM, but without Grade 11 U, you cannot take that course.

 

I seriously suggest that you take U and U/C courses in Grade 11 and 12. Do not take C or Workplace. You can still go to college with a 60% average if you take U and U/C courses but on the flip side, with 100% average with College and Workplace courses, you cannot get into University.

 

I hope I helped and wasn't too confusing.

 

PMD

[Guest dmacdonald95]

Thanks for the insightful words, Plough...and as far as the Hopkins attraction, it's kind of strange, really. I want to be a Clinician, and I absolutely despise the idea of Research medicine (people who go for a PhD/MD just to research) versus Clinicial medicine, but the fact that Hopkins has such a good reputation, if I ever DO have a turnaround and decide to do any research, I want to have a reputable backing for doing it (their website says over 80% eventually do research) [and by the way: good luck with the Kidney physiology there].

 

And Panjabi, yes, I am enrolled in Applied math right now, and I can and have taken the U/C course next year, and (AFAIK) the deadline has passed for summer school applications for courses at my school, however I will see what I can do, as my initial plan was to either

 

a) Take an upgrade course in College to give me the equivalency in Academic Math

Take Grade 9 (or 10) Academic math in Grade 12 first semester, Grade 10 (or 11) Academic math in Grade 12 second semester, and then get the remaining one or two years in a GED program, or at College.

 

(I hope THAT wasn't too confusing )

[Guest scooter]

I think I am the only one that doesn:t get if you are an american or a canadian... I'm a little slow a lot of the time....

 

I know my uni (u of Ottawa offered a Math course for those who were not prepared for first year math at uni level. it doesn't count toward your gpa (as it is technically a pre-uni course). Check out what uni you want to go to and see if they offer something similar. Also, if you can't get into your preferred course out of highschool because of prerequisits you can always do some random courses and then transfer in during second year.

 

You could easily do an arts undergrad and get into a great school... none really focus on your undergrad (that i have heard of but i can't talk for the states) since you take the mcat any shortcomings in sciences can be extinguished with a good mark. (One school had told me that since i didn't have a stellar gpa they would like to either see a healthier mcat or go back and do a couple more science courses). That being said you will need physics, bio, chem, ect to get a good mark and they are reliant on basic university math. However, most universities work on the idea that it is your responsibility to have the prerequ... ie you can sign up in second year for a first year math class out of your degree program and no one would bother making sure you had grade 12 math (i know a few people who just busted their asses off in first year uni courses instead of going back and doing highschool courses. another friend just did them through correspondance... many options to consider).

 

I agree about having direction, but becareful about too much focus. A lot of people who were also applying to med were SOOO focused on med that it was cleared they never really considered anything else... and many were not necessarily suited for med either but that was all they thought about for so long that they were crushed when they didn't get in... Also, a few people on this board have succumb, and that is thinking that every course makes or breaks you for medicine and they are very over stressed and over burdened by ever single paper/class they do. You have to relax and realize that the purpose of undergrad is to grow as a person... not as a doctor...

 

So don:t be too focused, just keep the map and remember that a detour still leads to the same place... is just a lot more painful\fun\unforgettable.

 

Good Luck

[Guest PanjabiMD]

scooter, I think you skipped a sentence in his/her opening post:p :

I am a high school student in Ontario and I am taking all Academic courses (aka University courses) except for Math.

 

To dmacdonlad95, I must say that I am confused. Are you dead set on going to college before you go to university?

 

Maybe I should make something quite clear to you, because based on your last post, I don't think anyone has. You want to take Grade 9/10 Academic Math in Grade 11 and 12? Mistake. Especially since you already will be taking 11U/C next year. Why would you want to go backwards? Math builds on itself. If you can't do Grade 10 math, you will be hard pressed to do U/C.

 

Now, I am not sure what they teach in Grade 10 Applied, but I know that everything that was taught in Grade 10 Academic was expanded and built upon in Grade 11 U. It is important to note that 11U and 11U/C only differ by 1 unit.

 

I do not see why you couldn't follow this route:

First Semester Grade 11: Take Grade 10 Academic

Second Semester Grade 11: Take 11 U/C

 

First/Second Semester Grade 12: Calculus

 

Maybe I am missing something. Do you want to go to university after highschool? Or do you want to go to college first?

 

I am confused...haha

 

PMD

[Guest Jochi1543]

I think the obsession with Hopkins is unnecessary. First off, you haven't even started undergrad yet, and second, there are 130 more schools in the US alone, and trust me, not every medical researcher graduated from Hopkins. It's a good school, but I don't see any solid reason for a fixation on it.

 

I am also very confused as to what the OP is planning to do after graduating HS.

[Guest dmacdonald95]

To clarify, I am set on getting an MD. I do have a backup plan (Computer Science) should it not work out, but that isn't the isuse of my post I am not set-on going to College if I can avoid it, as all I'm going to Uni for is to get my B.Sc. (a pre-req for admission to Med school), and the reason I would go backwards as far as math isn't because I can't do the work in U/C but because I assumed I needed the U courses in HS as a prereq for Uni courses

[Guest aneliz]

If you want to do university science (ie get your BSc), you need to have done university prep-level high school math and science. Period. So, I would suggest you do the following:

 

1. Talk to your math teacher and see what they think you could do to improve. Do they think that you could handle U level math with a little extra work? Could you get some extra help or a tutor? Could you study more effectively?

 

2. If your math teacher thinks that you could handle the U level math, book an appointment with your guidance counsellor. They will be able to tell you the best way to 'switch streams' in your courses (ie swith to U level). This may involve taking a course in summer school... but if you really want to go to university, it will be worth it.

 

3. Repeat #1 and 2 with your science teacher

 

4. Start looking at undergrad university programs and schools that you might be interested in. All of the universities have websites. You can look at their programs and requirements online in your spare time. It is never too early to start planning and have some goals to work towards. "Getting a BSc" is not as defined as 'doing grade 11'... there are THOUSANDS of combinations of schools and programs that will get you a BSc in Ontario... not to mention the other provinces and the US. You need to decide what you are interested in and research what the requirements are for those programs.

 

And Johns Hopkins, while an excellent school with a worldwide reputation, is definitely not the only place to get a quality medical school education... in fact it, it is pretty much identical to any other medical school at the medical student level. It's the research that sets it apart... something that impacts relatively little on what kind of education you will receive as you pursue an MD. You can get an MD at many Canadian schools and get just as good an education...at a far, far cheaper price.

 

Also, you do not necessarily need to have done a BSc to get into med school... this is the 'traditional pre-med' route, however, plenty of people get into med from other programs (BA, BComm, BSc Eng even BMus...) But, be warned that many (if not most med schools - especially in the US) require you to do a certain number of pre-req university science courses regardless of your degree program... and for that, you will have to have done the pre-req high school courses for those university science courses.

[Guest treehuggingbiologist]

Okay, as everyone says there are tons of schools to pick from for med. Why do you want to go to Hopkins? Don't focus on that now. Enjoy the last bit of High School - prom, graduation, pictures, parties, all that fun stuff.

 

I've seen many people who were set on becoming doctors and spent their entire undergrad career wanting that one goal. I tell you, they were some of the most annoying, 2D people i'd ever met.

 

If you do want to do med, power to you. Good luck, its not an easy route. But enjoy yourself - you're still exceptionally young and most of the stuff you do now probably won't even make it to your application.

[Guest scooter]

YEah, i don't know how i missed that first line,,, i blame a weekend of partying.

Just so you are clear, a BSc is NOT a pre-req for med school. Tons of people get in with other degrees. IF computer Science is your second choice why are you not interested in simply getting your degree in computer science and then applying to med?

Aneliz is right. Get talking to your math and science teachers and figure out what you can do. Also, remember what i mentioned about doing correspondance. Go to Uni and do the courses that don't require math and do the last course in Math that way so you don't waste time going to college if it isn't what you want to be doing.

Good Luck

[Guest muchdutch]

That being said you will need physics, bio, chem, ect to get a good mark and they are reliant on basic university math

 

Yes, these are reliant on basic math, but not necessarily university math (high school math suffices) and not necessarily on calculus...

 

IF computer Science is your second choice why are you not interested in simply getting your degree in computer science and then applying to med?

 

I agree with scooter here - just go for the comp sci degree. If it doesn't integrate with all of the pre-reqs, then take it as a 5 year degree (ie - don't apply to convocate after your 4th year) and integrate the pre-reqs yourself somewhere along the way.

 

Also, it's a good idea to plan ahead and have the requirements for math in the event that you may need to take it down the road, but calculus isn't specifically integrated anywhere on the mcat, and you can survive just fine without math in a BSc - I have taken several advanced chem and bio courses without calculus.

 

Another thought - not every med school requires calculus as a pre-req (or any math for that matter) and so you may be home-free and not have to take it at all!

[Guest peachy]

I do have a backup plan (Computer Science) should it not work out

Computer science requires an awful lot more math than medicine or biology does. You should be more worried about not having the prereqs for CS than for math at this point, if you're thinking of doing CS in undergrad.

[Guest dmacdonald95]

Gah. I typed out a nice long post, and ezBoard sent it to the bitbucket -.-

 

Anyway, to sum up the post you didn't see ():

 

- Computer Science is a backup only if I don't get an MD. That's why I'm not really concentrating on it (plus Medicine + CS are the 2 programs I've designed my courseload around)... By the time I decide to quit trying for Medicine I'll have decide on going to college or something to get my Academic math (that's assuming I haven't gotten it already)

 

- Thank you for the help everyone, especially the guy who laid out that lovely itinerary for me (sorry...if I hit the back button I'll lose my post again )

 

(And hey...at least I'm not obsessed with Hopkins anymore )

[Guest GundamDX]

--------------I've seen many people who were set on becoming doctors and spent their entire undergrad career wanting that one goal. I tell you, they were some of the most annoying, 2D people i'd ever met. --------------------

 

You got that right tree

[Guest peachy]

I've seen many people who were set on becoming doctors and spent their entire undergrad career wanting that one goal. I tell you, they were some of the most annoying, 2D people i'd ever met.

LOL, seriously. Although, the subset of those folks who would walk around telling everybody who would listen that they were "going to Harvard/Hopkins/etc medical school" were possibly even more annoying. :lol

 

Computer Science is a backup only if I don't get an MD. That's why I'm not really concentrating on it (plus Medicine + CS are the 2 programs I've designed my courseload around)... By the time I decide to quit trying for Medicine I'll have decide on going to college or something to get my Academic math (that's assuming I haven't gotten it already)

This makes no sense to me at all. You won't know whether you can get an MD until you finish undergrad, and you need to decide on what you are going to do in undergrad regardless of whether you want to try for medicine. High school is not the time to decide definitively whether you will attend medical school. It's the time to choose what you absolutely want to study most at university for undergrad, and leave your options open for possibilities post-undergrad.

 

That is, if you like CS (or whatever else), then study it for undergrad. Then apply to medical school if that's still what you want, three or four years later.

[Guest dmacdonald95]

Ah...I see what you're saying. Go for a Bachelor in Computer Sciences, that way I have the degree in CS, in addition to being able to use it as the pre-req Bachelor for getting into Med school.

[Guest GundamDX]

I think what most of us are thinking is that you're bit too young to be seriously planing to become a doctor? Maybe you're one of those ppl who mature really early and have lots of life experience by the time you're in first year uni... but the bottomline is if you choose be a doctor it takes years of preparation... so you really have to think it over before committing!

[Guest daryn]

Actually you may not even need a whole degree for some schools.

 

 

You may not understand it now, but when people tell you to

 

a) do what you enjoy

enjoy what you do

 

(whether it applies to academics or ECs), we mean it. So go into whatever school that you think is a good fit for you for undergrad, and take whatever program that you think you would enjoy, and do those activities that you deem as worthwhile and interesting, as opposed to what's "premed" or what you think adcoms would like to see. Really.

 

BTW, good for you for having UWO and McGill as backups. Now honestly, I wouldn't go around and tell people that though. People tend not to like that. And frankly it's not hard to understand why.

[Guest ssc427]

Second question: I really, really, really want to go to Johns Hopkins in the U.S. but I've been told it's unbelievably difficult to get into. Is this true? (As a backup plan I want to either go to McGill, or University of Western Ontario)

 

I think that this has been asked before but why on earth do you want Hopkins? What do you think that their program can offer that a Canadian school cannot? I have friends there and it seems to me the only advantage at Hopkins is that they’re in one of the worst parts of Baltimore which averages 1 murder/week so you’ll become very proficient at removing bullets.

 

While I have never been to Hopkins, but I did interview at Harvard which is thought to be in the same ‘league’ and I personally preferred the curriculum and training at your backup Western (but in the end neither are options for me as I’m waitlisted at both ). As for McGill, unless you are from Quebec you have a better chance at Hopkins. They only take ~5 out of province folks /year and get ~400 applications for those spots. So it might not be the best ‘backup’.

 

The only things I prefer about American schools are the cities (I’m taking about places like Boston and New York – NOT Baltimore) and research opportunities. It sounds like you don’t want to do research. So unless you really want to live in a US city why consider the US at all?

[Guest Steve MD09]

I have friends there and it seems to me the only advantage at Hopkins is that they’re in one of the worst parts of Baltimore which averages 1 murder/week so you’ll become very proficient at removing bullets.

Yeah, I've heard Hopkins is one of the best places to do a trauma fellowship.

[Guest tigerlily]

I would say >85% of my undergrad classmates (bio) in first year wanted to go into medicine. By the end of four years, there were very few of us even left applying. While it sounds idealistic in high school, you will grow and change so much in undergrad that you may not even recognize yourself at the end! I'm not saying you won't be a doctor - I knew when I was 6 years old and will be starting med school in August (though I took my time - 4 year degree plus travelling etc. = 6 years post high-school. In high school my goal was to do 3 years of university and go right to med school! I am *SO* glad now that that didn't happen, as I know I am in a MUCH better frame of mind to be going to med school now and had AMAZING experiences that I wouldn't trade for anything.)

My advice would be much the same as everyone else's, LOL

 

1) Do your undergrad in something that really interests you, because (gasp!) you may change your mind, and you'd probably rather be set up to continue what you're doing than have a degree in something you hate, and have to go back for another 4 years for something you love.

 

2) Complete your med prereqs while you're doing the first two years of your undergrad (just use them as electives for whatever degree you do).

 

3) Get as much hands-on patient care experience as you can. This will, probably more than anything else, let you know if this is how you want to spend the rest of your life. Literally - the REST OF YOUR LIFE! lol. Med school takes years of sacrifice and hella work - it has to be worth it for you. Plus most doctors don't end up changing careers after a few years, so you want to be sure. Instead of watching ER and Grey's Anatomy and thinking it's glamourous, try job-shadowing some physicians in areas you think you might like and see if you enjoy the actual work (and see how much paperwork there is! LOL).

 

4) Don't even think about what med schools you want to go to right now. Really. You have lots of time. Don't rush anything. Now is the time when you're free! Make sure you relish it and spend lots of time being young. You will never again have the lack of responsibilities (even if it doesn't feel that way, as you gain responsibility when you go to uni!) that you have now. Think about it - no family to feed, no mortgage to pay, etc. Enjoy yourself. Be responsible, but don't stress about the future (trust me, it'll cause enough stress of it's own when the time comes!). For now just cover your bases. Take one year of bio, inorganic (intro) chem, organic chem, physics, English, maybe a math or stats class (some med schools require one or both). For now the best thing you can do to set yourself up is:

 

a) study well and get good grades (don't underestimate this)

get out volunteering. Not just good for your med school application, but good for your soul too Seriously, get as much patient-care experience as possible.

c) look into other careers. there's nothing like having already looked at other careers and knowing there's nothing else you'd rather do to keep you motivated. If you don't look, you might start questioning yourself after you've put in SO MUCH hard work to get into med school.

 

That's all I have to say about that. (ala Forrest Gump)

 

And other than that... good luck and have fun!