Interview as a Msc student, rejection as a Phd graduate ??

[Guest waitingINwonder]

Wow, after reading all these posts in this forum, I have to say it's really sad that people with such great stats are getting rejected - this process is just ridiculously competitive.

 

I just hope that everyone keeps trying like I will because what does it matter if your 23 or 30 when you get into medical school, if that's what you want to do, then keep going for it is what I say.

 

Best of luck!

[Guest hippocrates]

I dont agree. An Msc PhD going into medicine is huge. Im not saying grads are geniouses ( we are ) but seriously, who is going to get papers or even do research let alone a PhD or Msc AFTER 9 years in MED??

Point being, a PhD-MD, or Msc-MD, will be an individual who can contribute more to progressing medicine rather than maintaining it...

 

anyways...the more I read about other schools the more UofT seems like something that I didnt want anyways. Honours system? no thanks....

 

studying stuff i already know? no thanks

 

give me clinical rounds pronto...1rst year not 3rd. Other schools here i come!

[Guest MrNeuroscience]

It sounds like those other schools will be lucky to have you... or you will be lucky to have them... either or I guess.

[Guest Ollie]

Hi Hippocrates,

 

I'm sorry that you got bad news from UofT. I hope you have success elsewhere. I could go on about the 3rd yr vs BSc vs MSc vs PhD and UofT admissions in general, but since time doesn't allow me to, I'm just going to correct some inaccuracies in your post.

 

Honours system? no thanks....

Yes we have HPF and most of us are not fans. But to be fair, we are not the only school with an HPF system. UBC, Queen's and (I think) UofA all have it.

 

studying stuff i already know? no thanks

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. All med schools pretty much teach the same stuff in varying degrees of detail. Believe me you will be happy when you get to subjects that you are already familiar with as you can slack off without guilt!

 

give me clinical rounds pronto...1rst year not 3rd.

Again not sure what you mean here. At UofT, clinical skills works pretty much the same way as it does at other schools. We start with history taking right at the beginning of first year, followed by physical exams. We get standardized patients for the first few weeks, then real patients. I think I saw my first patient in the hospital in October of first year. Clinical skills continue through to the end of second year, and of course clerkship starts at the beginning of 3rd year, just like everywhere else.

[Guest hippocrates]

A relative of mine is at UofT among other people I know at meds, they hate it...

 

basically to clarify I know that you guys are stuck with no (or little) time to do electives (during school time) until 3rd year...

 

other schools start from the 1rst week.

 

UofT is playing catchup, and seems to be the last to change (HPF) and the last to add things.... PBL, e-curriculum, electives, just to name a FEW...

 

the politics at UofT and the competitiveness and the unfriendliness and immaturity of the students ( i know first hand) have made me rethink my "first" choice and realize that UofT was not the great place it really is...

 

obviously I would take it if it was my only choice, but when you have a choice, well thats different.

[Guest MrNeuroscience]

So if your relatives hate it... and you really don't like the program or the school, why start a thread seeking some sort of explanation as to why you were not granted an interview?

 

Some folks (myself included) are ecstatic to have received an interview, and I really do feel for those individuals that DID want to attend U of T but will not be able to, however, either ask for people's opinions on this forum because you actually WANT to hear their opinions, or simply don't ask at all.

 

I could argue that you being an individual of research background would appreciate the simple fact that in research publications, the University of Toronto is second in North America only to Harvard. If advancement of medical sciences were truly what you were after, you should rethink your approach to this school.

[Guest Ollie]

OK, I really have other things I should be doing now (like sleeping), but since I like going to school here and I think my class is great, I'm going to have to reply. It seems to me you are either misinformed or are choosing to overgeneralize.

 

I know that you guys are stuck with no (or little) time to do electives (during school time) until 3rd year...

This is true in first year only. First year is pretty busy and there isn't a lot of time to shadow. Second year is a whole other story. We have three (3) full afternoons off from Sept-Dec and two (2) from Jan-May. We don't have "official" for-credit pre-clerkship elective (aka shadowing/observing), but there is plenty of time to arrange any opportuties you may desire. I have never had a Dr turn me down for shadowing. The student affairs office is always happy to help us arrange something if you can't find something on your own.

 

UofT is playing catchup, and seems to be the last to change (HPF) and the last to add things.... PBL, e-curriculum, electives, just to name a FEW...

The only thing I am giving you here is e-curriculum. Yes I will admit we are sadly behind the times. The faculty is working in this. PBL was added to the curriculum about 12 years ago I think. Electives (I assume you're referring to pre-clekship) see above. HPF see previous post.

 

the politics at UofT and the competitiveness and the unfriendliness and immaturity of the students

OK this really bothers me and I take it personally. In my 1.5 years in med school, I have never encountered any competitiveness among my classmates. I think that sometimes people can get a bit overly-concerned with minute details of lectures and maybe get a little loopy around exam time, but I think you will find this everywhere. People want to do well, and there is probably some carry-over from undergrad keen-ness, but there is no way it approches anything nearing competitiveness. If anything it's the opposite with everyone sharing notes and resources. As far as unfriendliness, I think some of the interviewees from this weekend will disagree. Immature? I have no idea where this comes from. I think we are about as mature as any other group of twenty-somethings.

 

I'm not saying UofT is perfect and that everyone will love it here. There are always things that can be improved, and not every school is going to be a good fit for everyone. For example, I don't think that I would be happy at McMaster. That doesn't mean I think any less of the school, it's just not for me. If you're going to talk sh!t about something, at least be informed and don't make generalizations.

 

Anyways, that's all I have to say. Again I'm sorry that you didn't get an interview, but all you are really doing right now is coming across as bitter. Best of luck the rest of the way.

[Guest kahone]

Ollie, those are old, pervasive attitudes towards U of T med students and the "culture" there. ALMOST ALWAYS without basis in fact or direct experience. It's urban mythology now...just like the email about Microsoft paying out money to people who forward a chain letter: send to 10 friends in the next ten minutes and receive a cheque for $1 everytime your friends and their friends forward this letter on, this is for real, my friend got a cheque for $12,000!! etc etc. I have long ago lost count of how many times premed and current med students here at Queen's have mentioned this oddity. Every med student at U of T I personally know, or have spoken to, has said unequivocally that it's bollocks, especially about the competitiveness. There are exceptions to this but they're apparently just that.

K

[Guest no wai]

Isn't it true that a there was a vote on the HPF system and the majority of students wanted to keep it?

[Guest Ollie]

Isn't it true that a there was a vote on the HPF system and the majority of students wanted to keep it?

Hi,

When HPF was first adopted in 1998, it was voted on by the students and was approved by the majority. I'm not sure what the details of this were, like if it was a yes/no thing or if there were other options. There was a vote held this year and AFAIK, the P/F system was the overwhelming choice of students (although I didn't see exact numbers, this is what I heard). So we'll see what happens with this. I've heard that they might change pre-clerkship to PF and keep clerkship HPF.

 

Thanks Kahone, yes it does certainly seem to be an urban myth!

[Guest DancingDoc]

I know from this weekend that all of the U of T students I met were some of the nicest at any of the schools I interviewed. Definitely a group of people I would love to study along side.... (just to further add to someone mention that there is an unfriendly atmosphere there, I definitely disagree!)

[Guest linghy]

the University of Toronto is second in North America only to Harvard.

 

This is off topic, but I'd like to know how you know this. You have a source?

[Guest ssc427]

the University of Toronto is second in North America only to Harvard.

 

I agree with the above post... that's absurd. UofT ranked 19th in the North American rankings:

ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/...opAmer.htm

 

This isn't med schools but there's no way to 'rank' US and Canadian med schools together. UofT has the most research in Canada but compared to (based on research dollars) Hopkins, Duke, Penn, Stanford and many other schools in the US it's way behind.

 

I won't argue that if you want to do research during your MD then UofT has more options than other places. But that's where the superiority over other schools ends. EVERY SINGLE school in Canada will provide an MD of equivalent quality to UofT. I say this with some insight. I've interviewed at 8 Canadian schools this year including UofT. They are ALL awesome (including UofT). It's impossible to pick a school based on quality. The factors which should go into the decision are things like city, financial aid (where UofT does excel), the buildings you will be working in and perhaps subtle differences in curriculum which appeal to you.

[Guest peachy]

The original quote was cut in half. It was originally

in research publications, the University of Toronto is second in North America only to Harvard.

and, I presume, was referring to medical publications only. Nobody is talking about "general university rankings", because those things are generally useless because they measure a smattering of factors which put together are not useful to any particular group. Anyways, I don't know whether that particular quote is true, but a related fact is found in the Faculty of Medicine 2004-2010 Plan says

Together with the affiliated hospitals, and after adjustments for Canadian funding policies, [Toronto's] research enterprise measured by competitive research funding ranks among the top four, after Harvard, UCSF, and UCLA, and similar to Johns Hopkins.

so regardless of whether it's the "2nd to Harvard" or whatever, there's no question that U of T is a major powerhouse in medical research in North America.

[Guest ssc427]

All that might be true (though I'm not sure I believe it without seeing exact numbers but don't care enough to look them up) but it shouldn't influence your decision or opinion of a medical school since those dollars have little to do with the education side of things (unless you are doing a MD/PhD). I don't think people should equate the quality of UofT medical research to the quality of UofT medical education. I thought the UofT med school facilities looked a little under funded compared to other schools like UofM ranked way below UofT in terms of research.

 

But I know that a 70's lecture hall with horrible orange plastic chairs shouldn't affect my education or there's something wrong with me to begin with. UofT is a great place to do your MD for many reasons other than research.

 

p.s. Lots of Canadian schools have H/P/F. Don't knock UofT for keeping this. Also, IMO UofT has the most diverse class in Canada due to their non-strict cutoff/non-geographic weighting application system. They are NOT after 4.0 gpa nerds (mine is 3.6). I saw more 'mature' students at UofT than anywhere else.

[Guest peachy]

it shouldn't influence your decision or opinion of a medical school since those dollars have little to do with the education side of things

You are the one who posted some statement about how U of T doesn't compare in research to big American universities; I was responding to that.

 

I thought the UofT med school facilities looked a little under funded compared to other schools like UofM ranked way below UofT in terms of research.

The lecture rooms are ugly, no doubt about it. But, imho, that doesn't reflect the "med school facilities" in general.

[Guest ssc427]

That's true. And I'm still not convinced that UofT research has the same 'pull' as a top 10 US school (though it makes absolutely no diff for my choice of med school). My main reason for adopting this view is that if we say we are already on par with the best then there is little ground for arguing that we need more. The entire CIHR budget of ~750 million is less than the NIH grants of 1.1 billion awarded to Harvard Medical School. So we can infer that one single institution is doing more health research than our entire country (UofT being the flagship of this country).

 

However the only fair comparison I can find to back up my claim is looking at the major health research contribution funds, so for the US this is the NIH and Canada CIHR.

 

Keep in mind this excludes all other sources of funding so isn't entirely valid. UofT received 468 million CAD in 2003/2004 but only 123 of that was from CIHR. But we can assume that the same applies for big US schools (so their NIH funding represents the same fraction of total research dollars).

 

This list is the faculty of medicine only and comes from:

www.usnews.com/usnews/edu..._brief.php

www.medresearch.utoronto....304_v3.pdf

 

 

School 04 NIH funding in millions

 

Harvard 1167.6

UWash 506.2

Penn 487.9

Hopkins 445.6

 

04 CIHR funding in millions

UofT 123.2

 

I'm very interested in seeing more figures if you think I'm wrong (which is entirely possible).

[Guest peachy]

I'm very interested in seeing more figures if you think I'm wrong (which is entirely possible).

Really, I don't have the time (or interest!) to do detailed research into how U of T medical funding compares in a North American basis. But whoever at U of T came up with that number of 4th came up with it somehow.

[Guest ssc427]

Well I'm writing my thesis and looking for ways to procrstinate and therfore have made the time to look it up. Hopkins (which is 4th) total 04 buget was 3 billion US.

[Guest MrNeuroscience]

I guess I should have footnoted!

 

The quotation simply came from the toronto meds admissions website, there were no references, and I have not seen any of the numbers myself, so I just took it at face value. It was not intended to mean anything about rankings, or funding, it was more so to make a point than anything else. It could be right or it could be wrong (not that it REALLY matters) I was simply trying to point out that Toronto IS a good school...

[Guest linghy]

Together with the affiliated hospitals, and after adjustments for Canadian funding policies, [Toronto's] research enterprise measured by competitive research funding ranks among the top four, after Harvard, UCSF, and UCLA, and similar to Johns Hopkins

 

Hmmm, I don't get it. What does "[Toronto's] research enterprise measured by competitive research funding" mean?

[Guest MedSchoolGirl2005]

hey everyone...

 

I am starting and MSc program to improve my chances and it looks to me by reading this thread that there are still a hell of a lot of grad students that are left behind. I have applied 2 years in a row and rejected pre-interview both times.

 

I know that u of t puts more weighting on research productivity...but what does that mean exactly? More papers, the better? Hmm...i worked as an RA for a year and my name has been listed as co-authors on some papers and posters...does that help even though its not first author?

 

My gpa for my last two years are excellent...3.7sh but the first 2 years stink...but with the weighting my u of t average is 3.65.

 

I do not intend on putting all my eggs in one basket....i hope to apply to a lot of canadian schools next year, as well as US schools...

 

Any advice would be appreciated!

[Guest UTMed07]

MedSchoolGirl2005

I know that u of t puts more weighting on research productivity...but what does that mean exactly? More papers, the better? Hmm...i worked as an RA for a year and my name has been listed as co-authors on some papers and posters...does that help even though its not first author?

Research productivity means first or second author IMHO. In some labs the principal investigator puts everyone on.

More papers = better? Usually true. Every paper helps.

My gpa for my last two years are excellent...3.7sh but the first 2 years stink...but with the weighting my u of t average is 3.65.

The GPA is likely what sunk you at U of T. That said, if you're a grad applicant the GPA probably isn't a liability.

 

Any case, with 3.7ish in the final two years you should have a shot at a few other schools-- UWO and Queen's I believe (if the MCAT is up to snuff). Best of luck!

[Guest MedSchoolGirl2005]

lol..well actually i didnt get any interviews due to that stupid 9 in verbal...i hate that section! But i would have qualified for an interview at western at the very least...queens recently raised their gpa this year so the requirements are in the 3.8 range i think.

 

Oh well...in my research job right now, i've been published on a few posters presented internationally and on one or two papers papers (third author) that are in review.

 

Hopefully with my MSc, i will have a better chance and qualify for an interview.

[Guest RedBull33]

Hey there

 

Try to get a first author pub, or at least have it submitted, by the grad student Jan deadline...it'll go a long way in terms of having your application considered.

 

IMHO, it's pretty much a prerequisite, if you are wanting to be considered for interview as a grad applicant.