OOP Applicants (to all universities)

[Guest byjude]

This phenomenon of out-of-province status is really difficult to grasp and it seems like a lot of the knowledge about OOP applications is unwritten. For those of us looking to expand our horizons outside of our home provinces/regions, it's sometimes hard to know whether applying as an OOP is worth it, since the minimum GPA information on most websites really doesn't reveal how difficult it actually is to get an interview.

 

How do OOP admissions work at each university? Is the emphasis more on really high marks, or on superhuman extracurriculars? Obviously, a balance of both is good, but which is more important at each school?

 

In Ontario, provincial restrictions only really apply to Mac, where superhuman extracurriculars are already pretty commonplace in the pool in general, but out of marks or extracurriculars, it's the extras that probably matter more.

 

I know Ottawa gives preferential treatment to Ottawanians and maybe less preferential treatment to Ontarians and then OOP applicants, but I've heard they have pretty insanely high GPA requirements unless you're from an underserviced region, so an OOP applicant would be better with higher marks.

 

But what about the other schools in other provinces? If you could be close to the cutoff with phenomenon extracurrics, or a 4.0 GPA with average activities, which would give you a better chance of getting an interview to each school in the other provinces?

[Guest noncestvrai]

I am slowly realising that the best chances are indeed in your home province. Except for U of T, Western and Queen's it seems.

 

noncestvrai

[Guest mirrille]

You have to ask or look up the information at each individual university. Most places have stats on how many apply and how many get in. If they have restrictions, higher cutoffs for interviews, quotas, those should all be published somewhere, and if it isn't, you can ask them.

[Guest physiology]

Hey

 

This is true. For example, at UBC, even if you have a 4.0 GPA, that would only give you 25/50 for your pre-interview score. You need a score of 42/50 for OOP.

 

So you need to make up that deficit with a minimum score of 17/25 for your non-academics.

 

I agree with noncestvrai's statement. The school that was willing to interview me was the one located in my home province (UBC Med).

[Guest noncestvrai]

Hey Phys,

 

You see, I am not saying I am an outstanding student by any means, but I have only received news from one school in my home province, and it was an interview invite. The rest UofA, UofC, Western, MacMaster...all flat out rejections, still lingering on a small hope at UofO...I am still kicking myself for not applying to UofT.

 

I am waiting to hear yet from the other Quebec medschools.

 

Sad to say but my OOP applications may have been a waste of money... and will if UofO ends up rejecting me.

 

Not to mention the time "wasted" in writing the application.

 

I want to be clear, I do not discourage OOP applicants, because some schools don't care where you are from, but for the ones that explicitly have quotas, you really have to be outstanding to hope for an interview.

 

noncestvrai

[Guest byjude]

I just think the whole system is messed up. Yes, your chances are best in your home province, if you have residency anywhere other than Ontario.

 

If you live in Ontario, well, it's like not having residency anywhere and just trying to get in as an OOP to all schools. Most Ontario schools don't give preferential treatment to Ontario residents, so every resident of every other province is equally eligible for their home school(s) plus the Ontario schools. Meanwhile, the only schools that give preference to Ontarians are McMaster and Ottawa, and unless you're a francophone or a resident of the Ottawa region, the marks and/or marks + autobio submission needed to get an interview at either of these schools would more than qualify you for consideration as an OOP applicant elsewhere.

 

There just seems to be something inherently unfair about this system, that where you live determines how worthy you are deemed of being a doctor. In most provinces, a 3.5 GPA and 28 MCAT would be considered sufficient level of performance/intellect to be a doctor, but in Ontario those applicants are told they are not capable of being physicians. If they all end up in the same residency match system in the end, then it seems like an oddly inconsistent system.

 

On the other hand, is there any benefit to maintaining this current system? I think there should be some sort of preferential treatment to local applicants to allow them to live close to family support networks if they choose. But setting local quotas so high discourages other students from applying away from home (except to Ontario), and might give the feeling of being "stuck" in that same region for those who want the chance to explore. In that sense, I can see how Ontario schools open their doors with equal consideration to OOP applicants to allow choice, but I think most applicants are given preferential treatment at at least 2 schools (not sure about BC, Sask, Man??).

 

So maybe in that sense, because Ontario has more schools, it is argued an unfair monopoly that we should get preferential treatment at them all?? Not sure about that one, I imagine we have our proportionate share of applicants, and the "preferential treatment" we get at McMaster and Ottawa is laughable. Someone correct me if this is wrong, and I'm using old stats here, but I've heard that the number of applicants to seats for Canadian med schools in general is 4:1 (though in most provinces it's closer to the US average of 3:1) but in Ontario it's 8:1.

 

Comment?

[Guest cutieyellow]

I agree with noncestvrai,

 

When i applied a few yrs ago, i applied to a few schools out of my Province. Applied to all Ontario schools, and Alberta. And Alberta never followed up (no refusal, no reply, no nothing), and flat out refusal from all Ontario school. What i'm saying is that my grades were competitive *but not good enough* and i think that my province of residence made it really hard for me to even put my foot in the door. Finally, stayed in Quebec after all. Could have saved over 600 bucks...and loads of time.

 

CY

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

There are a couple of issues here. First, in terms of in-province versus out-of-province requirements, many are set by the medical schools to complement the objectives of their mission statements. Many of those misson statements include the objective to train doctors who are willing to serve in that respective geographic area. I suppose medical schools feel, and there may be evidence to show, that incorporating a larger number of students from the medical school's immediate area will result in graduates who may be more willing to remain in that area for training, or at least, return to it for practice.

 

As to the increasingly high standards required to be a successful medical school applicant, it's less a matter of the fact that the schools are trying to be unfair or unjust, and more of an issue of supply and demand. There is a teeny supply of medical school seats relative to the demand of folks willing to sit in them.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest byjude]

But there's no free trade, just unbalanced protectionism in some provinces but not in others.

 

Who is to say that allowing more OOP applicants to study at a particular university couldn't encourage doctors from other provinces to come to that province? I would think that if a student wanted to practice in the area of their residency, that decision would not be hugely altered by studying there or studying away. They say absence makes the heart grow fonder, and I always find that I have a greater affinity for the places where I was raised AFTER I've left there, and compared them to everything else. As a teenager, I never would have wanted to stay in my city of youth, but the more I move around and the more time I spend away, the more I see how attractive it could be to live and work there.

 

I think, Kirsteen, you raise a valid point in retention of local students who may stay to practice there (the same argument for NOMS, which probably applies more to regions with a local personality very different from any Canadian "average" - although this still doesn't fully justify why McGill will let in more American applicants than OOP Canadians). However, how does this relate to residency programs? Are CARMS competitions as stringently focused on your regional status? I know CARMS lists the success rate for OOP applicants, but it doesn't seem as important as provincial status is when applying to medical school. Wouldn't the city where you do your residency play a much more important role in dictating where you end up practising? So unless I've been misled about the transnational focus of the competition for residency, then I still can't see how provincial quotas should be so important.

 

In a sense, it seems to me like the universities are negating the value of their provincial allure. Ontario schools seem to say that they won't bother to protect seats for Ontario residents because EVERYONE wants to move to Ontario anyway (at least, southern Ontario). Conversely, all the other Canadian universities (including UOttawa) seem to say that their locations and schools are so unattractive that no one would want to come there unless they were given preferential treatment and encouraged to stay there throughout their academic careers. I completely do not agree with this, but that's honestly the impression it gives. It's just so backwards, because I'd live in Vancouver or Montreal or Halifax in a heartbeat over living in Toronto, and though I know less about the other locations that host medical schools, they all seem to be great places that try their hardest to keep out outsiders.

[Guest coastal79]

I have to disagree with the "unfairness" of being an OOP applicant. The reality is that there are way more qualified applicants to medical school than there are positions. UBC is difficult to get into OOP, however, I read on their website last night that BC is, currently, only training enough doctors to fulfill 25% of what we need. It is much more likely that someone from BC will stay in BC, that someone from Manitoba will stay in Manitoba etc. Since provincial governments pay for both education and health care (or at least most of it), they clearly have the right to restict entry of OOP candidates if they see fit to do so.

 

On another note, I don't consider myself to be a an "outstanding" candidate by any stretch of the imagination, but, not counting Ontario schools, I'm interviewing at two schools as an OOP. Bottomline, if you're a decent candidate, decent not stupendous, then give it a try.

 

Cheers and luck to all

[Guest daryn]

From what I could understand, since US acceptance ratio is 3:1 (?!) and Ontario's is 8:1, it is almost three times as hard to get accepted in Ontario?

 

So by judging from the numbers at least, it seems to be that we have a bigger shot in the US. How do they look at OOC applicants? Any examples?

[Guest moo]

From what I could understand, since US acceptance ratio is 3:1 (?!) and Ontario's is 8:1, it is almost three times as hard to get accepted in Ontario?

 

Well I can speak for Canadians at US schools. I think in general it is easier to get into A US school if you apply to a decent number and range, i.e., not just to the top schools like Harvard, Hopkins, etc. A lot of lower tier private schools will take a decent number of out of state applicants. However, keep in mind that for each INDIVIDUAL school, the odds are just as bad. For instance, at a school like NYMC, in 1998-99, they got 10,047 applicants, and interviewed 1,480, and probably accepted about 700 or so to fill their class of 188. Thus the odds of just getting an interview at NYMC is about 15%! So the key in applying to US schools is apply to a broad range, and pray that the odds will be in your favor that at least one school will offer you an interview.

 

Keep in mind that there are some states where, if you are a resident, you will have a very easy time getting into med school, much like it is in Canada. However there are some states like California where it's equally difficult for in-staters to get into their own state schools, much like it is in Ontario. I applied to a few California schools (Stanford, UCLA, UCSF) and got rejected from all of them pre-interview (UCSF and Stanford didn't even think I was good enough for a secondary application). My friend in med school who's from LA, applied to all the California schools and got rejected by all of them pre-interview even though his GPA was a solid 3.8 from Berkeley (and an MCAT good enough to get into Northwestern, which ranks above many of the California state schools).