a look in to the future...

[Guest CASTLECASCADE]

Hai,

 

I got admitted to U of T for life science. That is the first step in my ambition to be a doctor. But i do have a question. Since i am new to Canada(10 months), i don't have an idea of the relative importance of education in Canada, USA and the Caribbean.

 

My questions are:

 

1, Is the admission requirements for Caribbean med schools much less than that of Canadian ones. That is if i could join in a Caribbean medschool, will i be saving some of my undergraduate years ? Is there any other particular advantage or disadvantage if i go for Caribbean ?

 

2, Is it better to

a, do undergrad in Canada and medschool in the US.

b, do both in Canada and then residency in the US.

c, do all in Canada and work in US(as a physician) ?

I am asking which is the best careerwise and otherwise(financially etc).

 

[assuming i do get in to all these]

 

Thankyou guys.

[Guest Jochi1543]

Are you bent on practicing in the US? It seems like all your options concern with that. I'm personally in the US now, but I plan to practice in Canada (after finishing Canadian med school). My undergrad was in the US. The reason why I wanna practice in Canada is the lack of insurance garbage - I'd rather make less money, but have more free time and center my work around patients, not bills and insurance companies.

Don't go to Caribbean schools unless your grades don't allow you to get into a US/Canadian school. And the other issue you want to consider is costs - med school in Canada is cheaper than in the US (unless you're a US citizen and go to a public university in the state you officially reside in). It's a better idea to do meds and residency in the same country. As far as undergrad and meds are concerned, it doesn't really matter that much, you can do both in the same country or do them in different countries.

[Guest CASTLECASCADE]

Thankyou Jochi.

 

I think i am getting it. Since i live in Canada and am gonna do my undergrad in Canada, don't need to debate too much about that.

 

So you say, medschool and residency going together in one country is better. Don't think i could pay for doing them in US. So no debate again. Will try to do them in Canada.

 

Just like you, i won't want to go to US to practice to get extra money while sacrificing peace of mind etc. But do tell me, what do you mean by all the insurance @#%$. What is there in the US which is not in Canada. I am clueless.

 

And one more thing. Consider somebody who did medschool and residency in Canada and another who did the same in US. Are both of them considered equal in general(like reputation, ability etc) ?

 

That's all i wanna ask for now.

Thanks.

[Guest moo]

Re: the insurance issue.

 

Canada has its problems too... your hands are bound by the government. Getting tests take a long time, loooong waitlists for procedures, etc. After doing FP for three weeks in Canada, and doing my core training in the US, there are problems with both systems.

 

In the US, it's insurance... as I said in the other thread, ideologically there's a difference. Realistically, both systems will greatly influence the way one practices medicine. Medicine is limited not by technology, but by money. This is true in both countries.

 

Take your pick. Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages. The money isn't really an issue, because although in Canada you make less, cost of living is generally less than most major cities in the US. Also, although you pay more taxes, you get more out of it in Canada (better roads, free health care, etc.) Physicians are by no means poor in either country.

 

My gut feeling is that both countries' health care systems will migrate more toward a middle ground in which a private system exists in parallel with a public system. In Canada, there was the recent Supreme Court ruling. In the US, states are looking at ways of implementing a universal health care system (source)

 

If you are into academics, hard core research, and want to work in a major academic center, I invite you to come to the US. If you just want to practice medicine and be close to home, then stay in Canada.

[Guest marbledust]

If you are into academics, hard core research, and want to work in a major academic center, I invite you to come to the US. If you just want to practice medicine and be close to home, then stay in Canada

 

lol..we do actually have many very good academic and research programs up here at most of the schools with medical programs..along with running water too....

[Guest Ian Wong]

In moo's defense, the amount of funding that you can get for research in the US is retarded compared to what is usually available in Canada. In Canada, you really struggle to get funding; in the US, particularly at the high-powered academic institutions, there's money splattered all over the place.

 

More than anything else, it's a tribute to Canadian academics everywhere that they are able to accomplish and publish as much as they do with the limited resources that are available to them.

 

Ian

[Guest marbledust]

In moo's defense, the amount of funding that you can get for research in the US is retarded compared to what is usually available in Canada.

 

That's a given. But Ian, you and moo are making it sound hopeless and futile to have a "real" academic career in Canadian medicine. I just have a very superficial understanding of some of the amazing academic work going on at U of C and U of A--mainly from local media stories, hospital publications, work of mouth, etc. There is ground breaking work going on at both places, things we don't know or hear about.**

 

A few years ago Calgary did a major recruitment and scored several prominent academics from the US. Many were Canadian, but there were a few Americans in the bunch. I assume similar work goes on at U of T, McGill, UBC, etc. Its not as deary as you guys are making it out to be.

 

**I would quote some examples, but I my brain is fogged from lack of sleep.

[Guest moo]

I'm not saying research is non-existent in Canada. A lot of good studies come out of Canada. My attendings quote Canadian studies all the time. And Canadian academic centers are generally well-regarded in the US. But the research dollars in Canada doesn't approach some of the higher end schools in the US.

[Guest marbledust]

But the research dollars in Canada doesn't approach some of the higher end schools in the US.

 

Yes, but:

 

a) the US has 8-9 times the population of Canada

We don't have any big name private schools a la Harvard

 

So of course things like research are going to be done on a much smaller scale. Your first post pretty much made it sound like doing academic medicine in Canada wasn't worth doing (getting as close to what you said without putting words in your mouth). I think a person can have just a rewarding and productive academic and research career here as in the US. Not to slam the US, but not everybody wants to live and/or work there.

[Guest moo]

Not to slam the US, but not everybody wants to live and/or work there.

 

No, but it was implied in the OP's first post that he/she might want to live in the US.

 

Anyway, Canada produces good research but as you acknowledged yourself, it neither has the population nor the resources to support big name institutions for research.

 

And no, not everyone wants to live in the US forever. Including myself. But you gotta give credit where its due, and I think the US has way more money than Canada in this area.

[Guest Dentosaurus]

I am actually not a medical student, but have enjoyed the discussion about research money. To be honest, I know a friend who came from the states, struggling with money (which everyone is since all the money goes to the military), and got a ton of support for research here in Canada. He is not in medicine, but general science, and came after a year or so of a fellowship of postdoc. He has now several students which is not conceivable as a starting academic in the states.

 

So, yeah, the money pool there is high there, but as a poster pointed out, the numbers in need is also high and the pool is drying for a wide range of reasons. So unless you are talking about profs at MIT, Caltech (which is not automatic these days), it is not easy.

[Guest wattyjl]

working as a gradstudent in canada for the last 5yrs, my impression, from what i've seen and heard, is in keeping with moo's/ian's sentiment that it's easier to get funding for research in the states.

 

of course there's lots of great research, and researchers, in canada, but for new investigators recently finished their postdoc'ing, it can be pretty touch to get the grants and set up shop. there is a lot of competetion for less resources, compared to down south. additionally there is generally more public and private research funding in the states (per capita). finally, postdocs typically get paid more and this attracts a lot of our phds - we don't have, or don't choose to have, the money to keep them here.

At international conferences i've attended, the US investigators were always plugging their labs and institutions, trying to snap up phds from wherever - at similar canadian-based/populated conferences, the 'recruitment' aspect was non-existent.

 

i'm not trying to say research in canada is futile, because it's not at all, but from what i've seen there is definitely more money floating around in the US.

[Guest Dentosaurus]

Wattyl,

 

Despite my earlier optimistic post, I actually agree with most of what you said, particularly with regard to posdocs. It seems that the Canadian system is not geared toward training postdocs for their future faculty positions. As strange as it sounds, the way postdocs are paid (or not paid) here almost forces them to go abroad for further training.

 

For sciences (less than medical or business), postdocs in the states are typically paid above $33000 US, regardless of the school. Postdoc fellowships (the more fancy, competitive, and independent ones) often offer ~$45000 US or more per year. In Canada, I was shocked to learn that some postdocs are being paid $30000 CAN, which really isn't much more than a graduate student, worse yet considering the conversion rate. Now, granted that many Canadian PhDs eventually come back to Canada for faculty positions after a postdoc stint in the states, we are simply not that attractive to the star PhDs from the states with our non-faculty offers here. The low postdoc salary is, in large part, a result of relatively little funding allocated to post-PhD training. That is, if one applies for Canadian national funding to support 2 postdocs, it is likely that the eventual funding is only good for 3/4 of one proposed postdoc, leading to a decreased wage for only 1 position.

 

The funding difference between the states and here, research wise, is that the state's system is "feast or famine" and our system is "equal but modest". Ultimately to get good funding anywhere one has to have new bright ideas that outshine the rest. But it is harder in the states since 1. the researcher has to be proven already to have a shot, and 2. almost any "bright" idea has been proposed by 10 others. So for a big-time researcher in a top university, chances are good for millions. I know a prof at a great school who sustained 5 consecutive proposals over 25 years, each is near 3-5 million. But for the same prof's funding, I have heard grumbling from 5 others (faculties and research scientists) who complained about their smaller but better proposals being killed in favor of that big one. That is the issue of the money not being spread out.

 

On the other hand, the Canadian system supports basic research for most faculty researchers (no famine), but it is extremely hard to get any grant over 1 M for any 3-5 year plans, regardless of the merit of the proposals. It simply doesn't operate that way. It may be a $30K or $100K fund here and there but no lumpsums of millions. Still, this does not mean it is hard to get funded in Canada, in fact, just the opposite! But one has to be creative and try different agencies (there are many). And considering fewer schools here, chances of getting SOME funding is, in my view, a little easier in general.