What undergrad prog is best for premed? Business, engineering, health sciences?

[satyam]

Hey everyone:) ,

 

This September I will be entering in grade 12 and applying to various universities. As many other people I am interested in becoming a doctors. I have several questions and it would be great if you can answer them:

1) I have a strong interest in mathematics and physics as well as biology. I thought I would do undergraduate in a disipline that involves math, physics and biology and then apply to medical school. I was thinking about studying Engineering Science (Biomedical Engineering) at UofT after I graduate from highschool. Is this a good choice? I have heard that engineering science is hard and it is difficult to get high GPA and a high GPA is really important for admission into med school. Also, engineering science is considered a rigorous course, so does that make my application look any better or not.

2) Secondly I can also apply for Schlich school of business for undergrad in BBA. Again it will be hard to maintain a high GPA at schulich so is schulich a good choice. Schulich also has a good reputation so does that make my application look any better. So basically, I have two choices for undergrad -Engineering Science at UofT and BBA at Schulich- what do you guys recommend will be a better preparation for med school. Also, if I go to UofT for undergrad then I will get preference when applying to UofT med school, however, if I choose schulich then I will not get any preferance and my chances of getting accepted into medical school may decrease substancially- what do you guy think?

3) I have heard that there are some programs which offer a combine MD/MBA degree. What universities offer this kind of programs? By the way, the only reason for why I want to go to schulich is because it will be a good preparation for MD/MBA program.

4) The minimum requirement in most of the Canadian univerisites is to finish at least 3 years of undergrad studies. However, if you take special course/program that is 2 years long but has the credentials of a 3 year undergrad program then you can apply to med school after 2 years. It would be great if you guys can tell me at what universities I can find those kind of programs and what if those programs really help to get admission into med school.

5) I have heard that some special programs guarantee you a seat into med school provided that you are able to keep up with a certain GPA. Also there are some programs 6 year programs that combine pre-med with medical school and you are granted MD degree upon graduating. What Canadian university offers this kind of program? I am not sure if Canadian universities offer those kinds of programs but in US some universities do offer those kind fo programs.

 

I appreciate your help in answering those questions.

[scrubbed]

Hi,

 

1 and 2) Medical schools in Canada do not formally distinguish the rigor of different academic programs. As long as an applicant takes the prerequisites, a full courseload, and appropriate courses (not all first year courses in fourth year, for example), then their program is as good as anyone else's.

 

What is important, then, is doing a program that you are interested in, and hopefully, as a result, that you will do well in. There's no ideal program for medicine: our class reflects that diversity. We have people who went to business school as well as did engineering degrees. You also do not have to be an academic superstar either, as marks of at least 3.8 will be good enough at all schools in Canada. If you're below that, it does make things more difficult, but not impossible.

 

3) Special programs that might help you combine your interests include: McGill's MD/MBA program and UWO's Engineering and Medicine program.

 

4) Most schools in Canada, with the excpetion of the Alberta schools, require at least 3 years, which means that the earliest you could apply at Ontario schools would be in the fall of your third year. Perhaps if you took ten additional half year courses, perhaps by taking AP courses and a few summer courses, you might have enough credits by the end of second year. I'm not aware of anyone in our class that has done this. Also by doing so, you may neglect your non-academic abilities, which are just as, if not more, important than your academic abilities. Finally, some schools, such as UWO, are now requiring a 4 year honours degree, by the time of admission, for entry into the program.

 

5) This doesn't exist in Canada.

 

Best wishes in your final year in high school.

[swansunday]

1) Having several friends in Engineering Science, I can tell you right away that getting grades high enough to make the GPA cutoff for med school is tough. Adcoms have stated specifically that the rigor of a program does not make a difference to your application. High school level courses in math and science are very poor indicators of the difficulty of engineering science. If going to med school is your ultimate dream, I would reconsider this path unless you are extremely good at theoretical mathematics and the like and are able to manage crazy workloads. There are many other engineering disciplines that will allow you to combine math, physics, and biology, as you desire. Keep in mind, though, that there are people who have successfully entered medicine (at UofT and elsewhere) from engineering science. You could be one of them someday.

 

2) The decision is yours but I offer a correction: doing your undergrad at UofT does not in any way give you preference over undergrads from other universities in terms of the application process.

 

3) As scrubbed says.

 

4) Again, as scrubbed says. Also, I wouldn't recommend racing against time to get into med school. Personally I think 3 years of undergrad is too short - the maturity and experience you gain from your undergrad years is something you'll miss out on in a big way if you accelerate.

 

5) Some US schools do offer these but I'm not sure which.

 

Good luck!

[peachy]

By the way, the only reason for why I want to go to schulich is because it will be a good preparation for MD/MBA program.

Why do you want to do an MD/MBA program, then? If you're interested in business in general, I would think you'd be interested in Schulich on its own merits.

 

If I were you, I'd worry a little less about focussing on getting in to medical school, and a little more about choosing to do for undergrad what you really want to do! You have lots of time, and as long as you enjoy what you study and do well, you won't have any problem getting into medical school.

[satyam]

Thanks for all your replies.

 

Why do you want to do an MD/MBA program, then? If you're interested in business in general, I would think you'd be interested in Schulich on its own merits.

 

If I were you, I'd worry a little less about focussing on getting in to medical school, and a little more about choosing to do for undergrad what you really want to do! You have lots of time, and as long as you enjoy what you study and do well, you won't have any problem getting into medical school.

Well, my ultimate dream is get into a medical school (business is not something that I am really interested in, however, I do like business a little). Doctors have good status and good income, but MD/MBA students will have a little bit better status and hopefully a better income- that's why I was thinking about MD/MBA. As a good advice, I must do what I am really interested in and what I am good at, so schulich is probably not a good choice for me.

 

That leave me with Engineering Science as my only option. Now the thing is that I am sure that I will be able to sustain high grades in Engineering Science to get into med school because I am really good at math and physics. By the way, what other subjects does one have to be good at to get a high GPA in Engineering Science? Also, how is GPA conversion done at UofT. Do you just divide the percentage you get by 25 or is there some other way. For instance, say if you get 90% in some class, then to calculate the GPA for that particular class do you just do 90/25=3.6.

 

If engineering science is that difficult that I might plan to consider other options such as health science at McMaster. From what I know, health science is more about health promotion than the biology aspect of health- is this true? I am not really interested in health promotion and my specialty is math, physics, bio, therefore, if in health science I am unable to take math and physics courses than I am afraid my GPA will not be high enough to get into med school.

 

So now what will be a better choice- engineering science or health science?

[swansunday]

That leave me with Engineering Science as my only option. Now the thing is that I am sure that I will be able to sustain high grades in Engineering Science to get into med school because I am really good at math and physics. By the way, what other subjects does one have to be good at to get a high GPA in Engineering Science?

 

I didn't mean to discourage you in any way, because if you truly want to go ahead with engineering science, you should. But keep in mind that being good at math and physics isn't a guarantee for success in that program. I think it's also fairly programming- and electrical-intensive. From what I've heard, your peers would be among the best and brightest in the country. It may well be a great experience but if your first priority is your GPA or you are looking to impress adcoms with a tough undergrad, it may not be the wisest route.

 

You asked which the better choice was - I'd say go with what really interests you and not what would be 'better' for med school. There's a reason why medicine is a postgraduate program...so that you have the time to explore your interests and experience some variety before you take the plunge. I'd advise not planning your undergrad to suit med school. Just do what you like most, and with some planning along the way, prepare to meet med school on the other end.

[peachy]

You asked which the better choice was - I'd say go with what really interests you and not what would be 'better' for med school.

Yeah, exactly. Do engineering science if you love math and physics, and you love the idea of having a rigorous engineering background, and you love the idea of building things and doing projects. Don't do it because you think i'll 'impress' adcoms, because being in engineering science might be a small plus if the person evaluating your application happens to know about the program, and otherwise it'll be pretty neutral.

 

if I go to UofT for undergrad then I will get preference when applying to UofT med school

I just wanted to doubly emphasize that this statement is patently false. No medical school in Ontario gives preference to students applying from its own undergraduate program.

 

Do you just divide the percentage you get by 25 or is there some other way. For instance, say if you get 90% in some class, then to calculate the GPA for that particular class do you just do 90/25=3.6.

No, it doesn't work that way. For Ontario medical schools, you use the OMSAS conversion table: http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105

[Madz25]

Percentage is converted to GPA by using the conversion scale.

 

90+ = A+ = 4.0

85-89 = A = 4.0

80-84 = A- = 3.7

77-79 = B+ = 3.3

74-76 = B = 3.0

70-73 = B- = 2.7

67-69 = C+ = 2.3

64-66 = C = 2.0

you get the idea....this is UofT's scale, other schools may use different scales. im assuming the engineering program uses the same scale...

[Melisende]

To do well in engineering is more than just being good at math physics. I have an engineering background though not from UofT. Engineering is a lot more work because we have to take a lot more courses than science students. There are many aspects of physics that you will touch on. It is a lot more than just the high school physics that you have learned. Make sure you will like all the fluid mechanics, mass transfer and thermodynamics that you will learn. My advice is do not go into engineering, unless you really like it. It is a lot of work and will be very painful if you don't like it. Whether or not you have an engineering background or a science background, it makes no difference in the application process. I have experienced that first hand.

[student101]

Satyam, I was in the same boat as you, and I chose to go for the BBA from Schulich Business School. Now I am entering year #2. Although it is kinda difficult, and it isn't science-based, its still great (IMHO) for med school. Yes, you may not get the whole science background, but its the non-technical skills that will definitly be trained - your case analysis, critical thinking, commincation, and organizational skills will become rather refined. I must admit, though, I do sometimes have regrets, especially since there will be extra work such as fulfilling science prereqs, or preparing for the MCAT. Overall though, I have come to believe that the Schulich BBA has thus far been beneficial, BUT, if you'd like to pursue med school, you'll have to be prepared to do a lot of extra work (expecially taking extra courses to fulfill your prereqs and prepare for the MCAT).

 

Hope this helps!

Good luck

[blinknoodle]

If engineering science is that difficult that I might plan to consider other options such as health science at McMaster. From what I know, health science is more about health promotion than the biology aspect of health- is this true? I am not really interested in health promotion and my specialty is math, physics, bio, therefore, if in health science I am unable to take math and physics courses than I am afraid my GPA will not be high enough to get into med school.

 

So now what will be a better choice- engineering science or health science?

 

Mac's program has a stronger biological focus than other health science programs (ie. then at UWO, Ottawa, etc). You are right that it doesn't focus on math (save stats) and physics but you are welcome to take them as your electives. A few people have chosen to do math minors and you could do a physics minor, although I don't know anyone who has pursued that. It is really important to like the core health science program and not only be drawn to its electives though. Have a look at the courses you will need to take throughout the degree (this is in the course calendar). You may be more interested in something like the medical & health physics program at McMaster if you like math, physics with a slant on health (there may be similar programs at other universities). My roommate graduated from that program and really enjoyed herself (it is a rigorous program, but if you like physics and being challenged, it may be a good fit).

 

Remember that the program or school you go to for undergrad will not give you an advantage for medical admissions, so don't go into a program to simply impress someone or have heard rumours about being a good prep for medicine. Go where your interests lie instead.

[satyam]

I have a question about Engineer Science- what exactly makes engineering science so difficult (is it that profs don't know how to teach, that exams are extra hard or that there is too much course load)?

 

I 'think' that a first year student in engineering science will take about 8 course. How many courses are compulsory and more importantly how many electives are students allowed to take? Are there enough electives to boost up your GPA by a little amount?

[swansunday]

You'll probably be better off checking the website for detailed requirements since they've had a recent curriculum change. The program is tough in terms of content and definitely in terms of workload. You will likely have two or three times the workload of an average science student (based on what others have told me). However the program also attracts some of the best professors in the university.

 

I wouldn't count on electives to boost your mark. Engineering students are allowed a very limited list of elective courses (1 per year, if that) at U of T, and all of them must fall under humanities or social sciences, no sciences allowed.

[satyam]

On the UofT's website (http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/English/page-13-15496-1.html) it says that:

"Prospective applicants are encouraged to pursue challenging and rigourous courses of study, as this will not jeopardize their chance of successful application."

 

Does this mean that if the program you are enrolled in is rigourous then that is looked upon as a 'positive' thing? This is quite weird because UofT encourages you to take challenging programs and on the other hand everybody says that rigorousness of your program does not matter. I am really confused; what is the truth- does being enrolled in a rigourous program (like engineering science, or health science) increase your chances of getting accepted into med school? I know this question has been answered but then why does UofT's website encourages students to take challenging courses.

[peachy]

I am really confused; what is the truth- does being enrolled in a rigourous program (like engineering science, or health science) increase your chances of getting accepted into med school? I know this question has been answered but then why does UofT's website encourages students to take challenging courses.

This is really not that complicated, and you're reading too much into their instructions. No matter what you do, you need to get good grades. Nothing else you do, in terms of extracurriculars, or MCATs, or particular university programs will matter if your grades don't make the cutoffs. Once you have good grades, if you can write a decent essay and do a decent amount of extracurriculars you'll get into med school somewhere. Yes, it's competitive and challenging. No, it's not impossible. In particular, for someone applying in their last year of undergrad with consistently good grades it's not as hard as people make it out to be.

 

Study whatever you want, as long as you can get good grades doing it. Be reasonably involved in your school and your community. You'll get into med school (if that's still what you want in four years). Going to engineering science (or to health sciences, or business, or english literature, or ancient history) is not going to make or break your application as long as you get good grades. Relax and study what you want. This decision will not make the difference about whether or not you get into med school, except insofar as it affects how involved you get in your school and what kind of grades you get.

[swansunday]

I think you might be approaching this backwards. You are not doing an undergraduate degree for the sole purpose of making it into med school. It really doesn't matter to them whether you pursue an undergraduate degree in health sciences or engineering science or philosophy - like peachy said, you just have to be good at whatever you do. There is not a specific program that will 'increase your chances' of getting into med school. Do not fall into the trap of doing something difficult just to impress them, because you'll probably end up hating it.

 

They are not encouraging you to take challenging courses, or hinting that challenging courses are a 'positive' thing. It's a pretty level playing field when it comes to applications.

[SuperImmuneHero]

Regarding number 5) Université de Montréal offers the program you described: 1 yr pre-med + the med program. The program is in the french language only.

[satyam]

If the rigorousness of your program doesn't matter than I will be better off of taking something like Bac. of Math because I am really good at math. And also, I will probably get more electives in BMath than in engineering science. Plus, because the curriculum of BMath will not be that stressful, I will have more time do other stuff like volunteering and extracurriculars. So I think BMath is a better choice for me, what do you guys think?

 

Originally Posted by peachy

Once you have good grades, if you can write a decent essay and do a decent amount of extracurriculars you'll get into med school somewhere. Yes, it's competitive and challenging. No, it's not impossible. In particular, for someone applying in their last year of undergrad with consistently good grades it's not as hard as people make it out to be.

 

What exactly are considered to be good grades?

[daryn]

I think math is a good choice for you if you think it's a good choice for you.

 

I really do mean it.

 

 

BTW, don't get so set on math just yet. See how things turn out in first year. Speaking as a math major, some people turn out to really hate math in university.

[peachy]

So I think BMath is a better choice for me, what do you guys think?

I think it's weird that you don't seem to think that what you want to learn or what you enjoy should be even a tiny factor in your decision. Don't you have anything that you want to learn? Undergrad is an opportunity to study anything, and you'll never get that opportunity again. Take advantage of that. Why not try talking to the guidance counselors at your school about it, for example.

 

What exactly are considered to be good grades?

There's no exact cutoff. Probably anybody with a 3.8+ and a decent application wouldn't have a problem being accepted somewhere?

[satyam]

Originally posted by peachy

I think it's weird that you don't seem to think that what you want to learn or what you enjoy should be even a tiny factor in your decision. Don't you have anything that you want to learn? Undergrad is an opportunity to study anything, and you'll never get that opportunity again. Take advantage of that. Why not try talking to the guidance counselors at your school about it, for example.

 

What I want to learn in university is math, physics and biology and there are tons of programs out there that offer courses in those three subject like biomedical engineering (engineering science) or I can get BMath with major in math and minor in biology and so on. From those programs I am trying to chose the one that best suits my interests and meets my needs (such as maintaining a high GPA and not having too much workload so that I can do volunteering and stuff).

[Smurfette]

I would agree with the other posters that you have to do what interests you. Unfortunately, I sympatheize with you - it's hard to know exactly what interests you when you're in high school still. I'm not from an Ontario school, but I know that many people who were interested in physical sciences (math/physics), but were also interested in biology (and ultimately med school) chose to go into a biophysics program at UBC. I don't know whether the Ontario schools offer a similar program. It's tough to combine so many different fields though. It's possible to take a particular program (eg. math) and then just take electives in the other areas you're interested in. Keep in mind that math at the high school level is very much different from math at the university level. University math is much more theoretical - often involving more letters than numbers =)

 

As for Toronto and it's challenging and rigorous coursework. Sure it doesn't discriminate between programs, but it will let you cancel your worst courses if you take more than the minimum full-time courseload. Therefore, if your program is intense in the number of credits, you will gain some advantage by being able to drop your worst courses.

[swansunday]

To help you make your choice, think about it this way: suppose you do not make it into medicine (not putting you down, but just imagine) - will you still be happy with your choice? Of course, not everyone is entirely happy with their undergrad choices when they look back – but those examples aside, will you be happy with your choice without regretting that you took something to make your path into med school easier? Have you thought about alternate careers (not because you won’t make it – but because it’s always good to have plans that aren’t entirely med-centric)?

 

Biomed engineering, math/bio, health sciences are all ‘good’ fields, but I doubt any of us here can give you advice on which one you should pick, because there is no right answer.

 

ETA: Have you read university brochures on these programs and looked at the types of courses they have? That may help you decide whether or not they're right for you. For example, many students who do well in high school math are disillusioned and overwhelmed by the theoretical and abstract nature of some university-level math courses (as a previous poster mentioned). Biomedical engineering generally has a big diagnostic technology aspect to it; do you like that sort of stuff?

[rubberoduck]

I must re-emphasize that highschool courses are poor indicators of their university counterparts. For your sake I hope your not choosing math/physics/bio just because you got good grades in them in highschool. I met several people in first year who did really well in their AP courses and ended up getting poor marks in university. In choosing the "right" program, the best thing to do is A)find your interests, and browse through university calendar for the one that BEST matches those interests; ask yourself, notwithstanding your goal to get into medicine, what can you do with that degree; C) if you don't get in medicine, will you enjoy what you get out of that degree?

 

Like many others before you, including me, I find that it's important to have a goal (like getting into medschool) and work hard toward it. However, as I work toward that goal, I realized how naive I was during highschool to make medicine the whole world around me. Many people loose a perspective on life when they focus too much on that one particular goal. I think the growth and maturity you get from exploring during undergrad and becoming involve in your school and maturity is what ultimately gets you into medicine.

[ChicoMaki]

I too was in your position last year. I had applied to engineering, business, and science programs. I really enjoyed math and physics, but I loved bio and chem. There s a program at Waterloo that you should consider if you love the above mentioned subjects. They have a Science and Busiess Department that combines the two subjects and they currently offer 3 programs with the approx. cutoff in brackets: Biotechnology/Chartered Accountancy (mid to high 90s) ~ 10-15 students, Biotechnology/Economics (high 80s to low 90s) ~ 15-30 students, and Science & Business (>80). Additionally, the programs are offered in Co-op. I accepted the Biotech/Accounting offer from UW, but then turned it down for Health Sciences @ McMaster.

 

It comes down to enjoying the courses more than getting good grades in them. Accounting was the easiest course I had ever taken, but I just found it soooo boring. Now the courses which required the most work IMO were Biology and Chemistry 12, but it was the most interesting. Don't go into a program because you'll think it'll be easy to get good marks; rather, find a program that you wold enjoy. Look at the course calendars of the universities you are considering and find upper year courses that interest you. because, most of the time, you will do better in courses you enjoy.