IMGs first round

[extrachromasome]

Have you guys been following the developments for the IMG 'parallel' first round this year? Internal Medicine in the maritimes:

 

Memorial:

"There are no designated spots in the first iteration for IMGs in Internal Medicine at Memorial. IMG?s will be considered in the second iteration."

Dalhousie:

"International Medical Graduates (IMG)

Dalhousie Internal Medicine will be offering one position for an International Medical Graduate (IMG), for a four year residency position in General Internal Medicine with the further requirement that they sign a return-for-service contract"

 

So that amounts to one position between the 2 universities, and that being a position that limits the student to a career in general internal medicine.

 

Is this fair?

[Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

So that amounts to one position between the 2 universities, and that being a position that limits the student to a career in general internal medicine.

 

Is this fair?

 

Well, if you're an IMG, then you can view it as a start. Minimally, at least the Maritimes are offering IMGs some opportunities. Here in Alberta, there are no first-round spots for IMGs this year. Also, I'm sure there are some IMGs who having IM training who would love to take that spot.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[blinknoodle]

In Ontario, IMGs are limited to general internal medicine as well.. the other spots are in anesthesia, pathology, community medicine, radiology, general surgery, ob/gyn, orthopedic surgery, paediatrics (general), psychiatry and radiation oncology.. and family medicine. Subspecialty training is not allowed and they need a 5-year return to service in a underserviced area. Many of the competitive fields are not open at all. We have a few IMGs that have joined our clerkship class for an 8-month clerkship, although I heard that this will be its last year. I am not sure how many spots will be for IMGs though.

[Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

Seems that the competition for some of the IMG spots is quite intense this year. I've recently received news that there were over 100 applications received this year by a school for their one Radiology spot.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[CutieYellow]

Ya, I've heard that too. It's crazy. We thought we had it bad as CMG ...

 

CY

[Kirsteen]

We thought we had it bad as CMG ...

Hi there,

 

'Tis true, it could always be worse.

 

On a related note, I was chatting with a pal the other day re: the CaRMS match and the probability of matching into this specialty or that. (Difficult to determine in any solid way at this point, I might add.) They noted that, about three or four years ago, I would probably have been quite happy being an X- or Y-type of doctor, i.e., that type of doctor that corresponded to matching to my first, second or third choice of specialty might have been irrelevant, were a medical school admission simply to appear. How things seem to change.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[CutieYellow]

Hihi, that's an interesting thought though Kirsteen - and it's true. As long as we got to medical school, didn't matter what we ended up doing

[everyoneloveschem]

Cutie and Kirsteen, while I agree with you about the beggar's can't be choosers type of attitude I had a year or so ago, I would not have come to med school if pathology or sports medicine were my two choices upon graduation!!

 

As for IMGs, I really don't know how to feel about them. Part of me doesn't want the competition, especially when I think about how hard I worked to get here and the fact that I am a Canadian born and raised. On the other hand, I really feel for them, coming to Canada for a supposed better life and then performing menial work to make ends meet. As educated people in their home countries, some research would quickly have shown them the reality of their inability to work in Canada as physicians (just how I learned just how difficult it would be to come back to Canada if I attended a foreign med school, so decided against it). Also we don't want to make it too easy for foreign trained doctors to immigrate and work in Canada, because that just encourages brain drain from countries that need their own doctors.

 

I just don't know. It is also so very political, with doctors enjoying a sellers market, and having such clout as lobbyist, etc. This is the kind of thing I fear will come up at family dinners.

[Kirsteen]

Cutie and Kirsteen, while I agree with you about the beggar's can't be choosers type of attitude I had a year or so ago, I would not have come to med school if pathology or sports medicine were my two choices upon graduation!!

Hey there,

 

Perhaps, although (tongue in cheek) Pathology is a pretty neat specialty. Truthfully, I certainly didn't know as much about any of the specialties before medical school relative to the present time so i might have been quite satisfied with any number of career paths prior to CaRMS.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[wildcard]

As for IMGs, I really don't know how to feel about them. Part of me doesn't want the competition, especially when I think about how hard I worked to get here and the fact that I am a Canadian born and raised. On the other hand, I really feel for them, coming to Canada for a supposed better life and then performing menial work to make ends meet. As educated people in their home countries, some research would quickly have shown them the reality of their inability to work in Canada as physicians (just how I learned just how difficult it would be to come back to Canada if I attended a foreign med school, so decided against it). Also we don't want to make it too easy for foreign trained doctors to immigrate and work in Canada, because that just encourages brain drain from countries that need their own doctors.

 

I think that its important to realize that not ALL IMGs are foreigners trying to get into Canada. Most of these (I don't have any statistics at hand...but I know from having spoking to numerous IMGs) foreign trained doctors are in fact Canadian citizens who have completed all of their schooling including undergraduate training in Canada....like myself. Not to mention, my family still lives in Canada and they are Canadian citizens.

 

I agree that this is a very politically driven issue, but sympathizing with IMGs is not exactly helping the physician shortage in Canada. Regardless of whether Canada accepts IMGs (incl. those who are Cdn citizens, like myself) it doesn't change the fact that this country is faced with a serious shortage of qualified physicians and will eventually result in a massive medical debacle. Not to mention, Canada isn't producing doctors fast enough to have any solid, valid reason to reject trained IMGs esp. after interviewing and determining the validity of their degree.

 

Whew...ok I'm done ranting...

[papazow]

I think that its important to realize that not ALL IMGs are foreigners trying to get into Canada. Most of these (I don't have any statistics at hand...but I know from having spoking to numerous IMGs) foreign trained doctors are in fact Canadian citizens who have completed all of their schooling including undergraduate training in Canada....like myself. Not to mention, my family still lives in Canada and they are Canadian citizens.

 

I agree that this is a very politically driven issue, but sympathizing with IMGs is not exactly helping the physician shortage in Canada. Regardless of whether Canada accepts IMGs (incl. those who are Cdn citizens, like myself) it doesn't change the fact that this country is faced with a serious shortage of qualified physicians and will eventually result in a massive medical debacle. Not to mention, Canada isn't producing doctors fast enough to have any solid, valid reason to reject trained IMGs esp. after interviewing and determining the validity of their degree.

 

Whew...ok I'm done ranting...

 

 

as for canadians going abroad to get their medical training.. there are NUMEROUS times when you hear how hard it is to work in canada if you are an IMG..... so why do people ignore these warnings and do it anyways? esp with the blind hope that it will be OK when they are trying to come back..

 

it's not going to be OK... so for these people, why not work hard and get into a canadian med school?

 

and if a canadian med school does not accept you, perhaps you should look at other careers?

 

in canada, medical schools have certain values and standards... if you the med school doesn't feel you have them, perhaps u should not be a doctor in canada..

 

in a sense, it's almost unethical to bypass the standards of med schools by going elsewhere and trying to sneak back in....

[papazow]

So if a person works hard and gets into a canadian med school... how is it fair that someone goes to another country (where $$$ gets you accpetance as opposed to credentials) and yet they come back and work here?

 

ask the average canadian.... they would rather have a canadian-trained doctor than an IMG...

 

look, im not against IMGs... but there are issues here..

 

IMGs from other countries: basically, countries like iran, india, china, etc are producing doctors... their taxpayers are paying for doctors!... then, these doctors aren't staying there... that's not fair to those countries' taxpayers.. and it would be unethical of us to take them..

 

IMGs from canada.... how many people go overseas because they can't meet GPA/MCAT cutoffs in canada... yes, they are competitive.. but they are that way for a reason... we want the best of the best in canada.... anyone (and i mean anyone) can go to the caribbean and becme a doctor... is that right? i don't tihnk so

[The Law]

So if a person works hard and gets into a canadian med school... how is it fair that someone goes to another country (where $$$ gets you accpetance as opposed to credentials) and yet they come back and work here?

 

That is not necessarily the case, and if the government was more open to allowing IMGs to enter into residency then information could be shared between residency programs and the graduating schools to ensure that top notch doctors are being hired. By working together with medical schools of other countries, we are one step closer towards integrating IMGs into the Canadian system. Additionally, I read a report recently that approximately 2 canadian medical schools full of doctors leave to train south of the border every year for residency. We should be pleased that people want to come to Canada, we need to increase our competitiveness rather than continue to "bleed out" to the competition.

 

ask the average canadian.... they would rather have a canadian-trained doctor than an IMG...

 

Ask a Canadian though, if they could receive a drastically reduced wait time... would they go for that?

 

Honestly, the truth is that we have a shortage in doctors. Things need to be done to address this immediate need for doctors. As smurfette pointed out in a related topic previously on the forums - opening medical school spaces is just one step, residency training spaces must also be increased. The government needs to seriously invest into our health care system (and perhaps put people in positions to ensure the money is being spent well - although I never see them really worried that they spend billions on private jets and fancy dinners ). Simply allowing IMGs to compete with Canadian graduates will not do anything to solve the problem of the doctor shortages. It is something that should be looked into though, because these are qualified doctors and it really isn't fair that they're wasting their training by working in completely unrelated careers.

 

Another thing is that we all know how competitive the medical school process is in Canada. I mean, in the US with a 3.8 GPA and a solid MCAT, you'd be considered gold! In Canada, a 3.8 GPA will find you around the average for applicants to Canadian medical schools. It really isn't surprising that people are forced to go elsewhere. Some people don't have the money (nor the patience) to simply wait for a Canadian medical school to accept them. Simply saying that doctors from other countries are "less" qualified than Canadian doctors is an exceedingly arrogant statement. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who doesn't believe that luck plays a big part in medical school admission in Canada.

[NLengr]

Something which most people seem to have been focusing on is the fact that many IMG's have decent entry criteria, but due to high competition in Canada, don't get accepted.

 

This is all well and good. But lets remember, entry criteria have no bearing on anything past the offer letter. The thing that counts is the quality of the educational program. You can be smart as hell, but if it's a weak program, then you simply won't come out with the skills needed. That, in my mind, is the major issue with IMG's. Our accreditation standards for our schools is so high, it exceeds most international schools.

 

As for the IMG issues, I've talked to several specialists who were Canadian trained about this, and some who were foreign trained. Pretty much the universal answer from all is that there are two levels of training programs world wide. The Canada-US block (which includes UK, Aus, and the rest of the West to a lesser extent) and then there is the other block (everyone else). They're opinion is that there is a massive difference in quality of graduates when you look at each group (exceptions are present for individuals of course).

 

IMG's are a MAJOR issue right now in NL. The past month has seen 2 IMG radiologists flagged and removed from practice in the province due to issues with the quality of their work. The public is angry and wants answers. IMG's are not in the best light in the public's mind presently. The mood is they would much rather see a Canadian trained doctor doing the job.

[papazow]

We don't necessarily get the best of the best. I know plenty of amazing people that weren't accepted this year (ie. excellent GPA, MCAT, extracurricular activities, etc.), while others who shouldn't gotten in have.. and it's absolute BS that the latter were accepted over the former.

 

.

 

I agree that the med schools do not always pick the best candidates. There are good candidates who don't get in, and there are poor candidates who do get in. For the most part, however, the med schools do a pretty good job at selecting candidates.

 

Now, as for the idea that people who don't get in should complete their training overseas and just come back in. You make it seem as if it's their right to be a physician! Being a physician in Canada is a privilege! You should not be able to simply bypass the Canadian med school admissinos process, go elsewhere, and walk back in when you feel. If the candidate is good, he/she will get in - maybe not this year, but next year or the year after. If they really want to be a doctor, they will wait an extra year or two.

 

Most people here agree that it is unethical to bypass our public health care system and use the private health care system (in the US, carribean or overseas elsewhere). Why, then, is it acceptable to bypass our public education system and access private education (in the US, carribean or overseas elsewhere)?

[wildcard]

wow...this is a really heavy debate..

 

I'd like to point out that those who leave Canada to train as MDs may have the intention to return to Canada for residency (or to practice), but that doesn't mean that they can do so by 'bypassing' the rules of the Cdn health care system. Cdn hospitals do their best in 'weeding' out applicants (incl. IMGs) just like Cdn medical schools do. There is nothing easy about returning to Canada as an IMG so there is really no need to fret over ethical issues surrounding this. The only way IMGs can practice in Canada or do their residency is by going thru CaRms.

 

Furthermore, the best medical graduates are not neccessarily from Canada or the US.

 

I'd also like to point out that there are many students who choose to go to medical schools abroad to broaden their horizons for residency positions (like myself). Getting into a Cdn medical school isn't the end all and be all like it is for papzow. After earning an MD from Europe I will be eligible to get liscenced (and subsequently apply for residency) in the UK, US, Canada, Ireland & Australia. Some students don't even bother applying to Cdn medical schools and opt for a larger....MUCH larger playing field than Canada can ever offer.

[Alastriss]

I agree that the med schools do not always pick the best candidates. There are good candidates who don't get in, and there are poor candidates who do get in. For the most part, however, the med schools do a pretty good job at selecting candidates.

 

Now, as for the idea that people who don't get in should complete their training overseas and just come back in. You make it seem as if it's their right to be a physician! Being a physician in Canada is a privilege! You should not be able to simply bypass the Canadian med school admissinos process, go elsewhere, and walk back in when you feel. If the candidate is good, he/she will get in - maybe not this year, but next year or the year after. If they really want to be a doctor, they will wait an extra year or two.

 

Most people here agree that it is unethical to bypass our public health care system and use the private health care system (in the US, carribean or overseas elsewhere). Why, then, is it acceptable to bypass our public education system and access private education (in the US, carribean or overseas elsewhere)?

 

IMO, even if IMGs were put on par with canadian graduates when it comes to first iteration, it won't be as easy for them as your making it out to be. program directors will still choose the best and the ones that they know have quality and substance, and those are likely to be canadian graduates because they have so much more exposure, and exposure to important people in the field of choice is very critical. (think of it as the 'home-field' advantage)

Look at US grad for example, they are not IMGs, but they have to go through more trouble to setting up electives just to get recognition as a canadian grad, and even then they may not get to know key players as well as a canadian grad.

Now if there is a quota put on the number of canadian grads that can be accepted into a certain program because there are designated spots for IMGs, then yeah I would be little pissed.

Bottom line: I dont think, and a lot more others, it will be as easy as you are making it out to be.

and it won't be "walking back in" as your putting it, IMGs and even US grads, but more so IMGs, are actually running through an obstacle course rather than walking in.

 

Secondly, YOU are making it seem that its a right for all canadian med students to get the residency of their choice let alone a residency. I can find you a bunch of people that will argue with you and say that even that can be seen as a priveledge not a right. Residency spots are reserved for the best, that's all. This is a discussion that has gone through on this forum before and has raged on for pages.As I outlined above, canadians have a headstart in the race.

 

About the admissions process. Med schools select the best candidates and i agree with you that FOR THE MOST PART, they do a damn good job. But just because your not the best candidate, doesn't mean that your not worthy of being able to practice medicine. Say i was a prof and i offered 1 lab position and 80 people apply. I will select the best 1 out of the 80, but i can assure you there could be 9-10 others that can do a damn good job but i just can't take more than 1. med schools here are the same, we can't just add seats because we lack the $$$, but we do take the best. however a lot of people that we reject may just as well be qualified to becoming great doctors, too bad theres no room.

So why then, should we cast them aside with the "completely unworthy" pile?

 

 

About the last paragraph:

ok, so the reason why its unethical to push healthcare into the private sector is that it turns healthcare into a business. Allocative efficiency would be much better, but the system could deny unfortunate people what we see as a basic human right: entitlement to healthcare.

 

bypassing a public educational system and going to a private system; how is that unethical? I don't want to make any ignorant assumptions so Ill wait till u explain this statement further

 

But I want to add that allowing IMGs into the first round is not going to help solve the shortage problem if they are not adding more seats. I haven't checked up on what's going on with CaRMs, but adding positions and making a pool for IMGs in the first iteration may seem like a good idea, since they need to increase residency spots to solve the shortage problem

[bay]

Interesting article from this weeks medical post: http://www.medicalpost.com/news/article.jsp?content=20070611_124436_4584

[kaymcee]

(Could you copy-and-paste it in here for those of us who don't want to sign up for yet another freaking sign-in news service?)

[bay]

No - It's the medical post. Everyone on this board should be reading it anyway.

[kaymcee]

Well, pardon me!

[Talon01]

(Could you copy-and-paste it in here for those of us who don't want to sign up for yet another freaking sign-in news service?)

 

Fears allayed as residency match declared win-win

June 12, 2007 |

 

 

Canadian students fare well sharing first round with IMGs

 

OTTAWA | Medical education decision-makers are perplexed.

 

For years, more than 85% of applicants to the annual running of the Canadian Residency Matching Service (CaRMS) have scored their first choice of postgraduate training—yet there is a pervasive view among Canadian medical students that there are woefully few residency spots in the country.

 

And the perception problem is likely the fault of those very same decision-makers, conceded Dr. Nick Busing, president and chief executive officer of the Association of Faculties of Medicine of Canada (AFMC).

 

Dr. Busing, the head of the medical dean’s group that oversees the annual match (by setting CaRMS policies), said that misperception was revealed in a recent study conducted by the Canadian Medical Forum. The survey results were discussed by the forum that met at the end of May and whose members include representatives of the AFMC (Dr. Busing), as well as the Canadian Association of Internes and Residents, the Canadian Federation of Medical Students (CFMS) and the Canadian Medical Association.

 

The meeting was held in part to discuss the latest running of CaRMS.

 

All forum members, especially the medical students, were particularly concerned with this year’s running of the match after the AFMC—the group that basically runs CaRMS—decided last summer to change the rules governing how international medical graduates (IMGs) participate in the match.

 

The AFMC had decided foreign-educated doctors could vie for spots in the first round. Previously, they had been isolated to the second round. That worried domestic students because they assumed this change would mean more competition for the same amount of spots.

 

They hadn’t realized, however, that more residency spots were being opened.

 

As it turned out, according to the results of this spring’s match, the domestic students had little to worry about. The two iterations of the match were arguably the most successful in the organization’s history, being that the most domestic medical graduates and international medical graduates took part and were matched.

 

The ratio of residency applicant to residency spot in the crucial first round (the second round is run largely as a mechanism to fill the vacancies) was 1 to 1.14, according to results posted on CaRMS’s Web site in May.

 

That was the highest ratio since 2002, when the ratio was 1 to 1.13. Yet the data shows that since 2004, 84.4% or more of Canadian applicants won their first choice.

 

This year’s running was a banner year for medical graduates. The 1 to 1.14 ratio for 2007 breaks down like this:

 

• 2,000 Canadian graduates vied for 2,274 positions in the first round (another 175 positions were earmarked exclusively for IMG applicants).

 

• Of the 2,000 domestic applicants who took part, fully 95.5% won a residency spot at the first go.

 

• 86% landed their first-choice of profession.

 

“There were very good opportunities this year,” said Dr. Busing.

 

“A significant percentage of students in fact had the impression that there were insufficient positions for them in this match. Obviously there were some major failings in communications.”

Dr. Nick Busing

 

While Canadian medical graduates were concerned their opportunities would be in jeopardy after the call was made to allow IMGs into the first round, clearly the numbers show that fear was off-base.

 

Dr. Philip Brost, president of the CFMS, told the Medical Post that his group was happy with the results of this year’s match.

 

“It didn’t seem to cause much of an issue,” said Dr. Brost, a graduate of the University of Saskatchewan medical program who has relocated to Vancouver to pursue his residency training in psychiatry.

 

IMGs did well, too. Of 1,486 IMGs who vied for a residency spot via CaRMS in the first iteration, 191 were matched to their first choice and 38 were matched to another discipline.

 

“We don’t have all the results in,” said Dr. Busing, “but we anticipate close to 400 IMGs being matched into postgraduate training.”

 

He continued, “Approaching 400 will be more IMGs than we’ve (ever) had in the past” in Canadian residency.

 

“My interpretation is it has been a win-win situation for Canadian medical students and for IMGs, both in numbers and in opportunities,” Dr. Busing added.

 

In contrast to Dr. Busing’s view, Dr. Brost said he believed this year’s success was based in large part on a slackness in the medical school education-post-graduate residency continuum. Residency programs have in recent years been expanded to accommodate larger medical school classes even though those larger cohorts haven’t reached the residency stage yet, he said.

 

“That isn’t going to happen every year. I suspect one could infer that this is one of the reasons why the numbers were a little bit better this year—because there were a few more positions available,” he said.

 

Said Dr. Busing, “A significant percentage of students in fact had the impression that there were insufficient positions for them in this match. Obviously there were some major failings in communications.”

 

He added that forum members have given themselves the task of improving communication so students are disabused of that view.

[samsara]

I feel quite strongly about this issue, so I have to speak up. I know several individuals personally who decided to go to Caribbean schools and do their medical education there after being rejected by Canadian schools. Not sure if I'm getting the exact numbers right but they needed a deposit of something like 200,000 dollars in order to do this. A lot of money in my book-which I highly doubt a Canadian bank would have loaned them. these are good people - they're intelligent, genial, kind - and heck, maybe they have all of the characteristics required to become physicians, but they didn't get into a Canadian medical school. I, on the other hand, applied after my fifth year, needed a loan, and anxious as I was, couldn't even fathom applying to the Caribbean or Ireland or other such places (as much as i drooled over the prospect of easy entry with my gpa and mcat scores). Is it fair to someone who isn't financially well to do to be in my boat? I don't believe so. What happens to all the reasonably well qualified applicants who didn't get into Canadian schools and don't have the means to attend an international school due to financial difficulties or other constraints? Are their hopes and dreams supposed to wither away while those of the socially elite are realized?

In my first year of undergraduate education, there were hundreds of hopeful premeds. As time and classes wore on, many of them bit the dust. Some had family problems that affected their grades. Others had to quit or drop out. Others just weren't serious enough. I myself had two years where I was a part time student working full time and got straight B's. Several doors were closed off due to these grades. No Ontario school was going to go through the hassle of asking me my extenuating circumstances (as compelling as they might have been) - they simply saw my grades and assessed them as uncompetitive. GPA Numbers don't speak stories for individuals, they just open or close doors. This is the way that admissions works - and it's harsh and brutal, but it's life. I would go off on some tangent of a socially inscribed notion of "survival of the fittest" combined with a helping of luck to describe this, but that's for another post.

At the same time, I have infinite respect for a good friend of mine, who tried for four consecutive years IN CANADA before she finally got in, despite the fact that she came from enough money that she could have easily gone the Caribbean route. I've heard of (and met) people who've tried 7 times and finally gotten in. I don't believe it's hard to see how their perseverance is far more worthy of my respect.

And then there are other concerns. Papazow raises a very valid point when he mentions the brain drain from other countries. Should we, as a country which has much to complain about in terms of losing able physicians to the United States, be promoting such policies of our own, especially with doctors from third world countries where there are even fewer doctors per inhabitant? Keep in mind too, that the doctors who WILL be allowed to practice here will be good doctors by Canadian standards - which could very possibly mean they would be excellent doctors by third world country standards. Is it moral to hire such a physician, who obtains an excellent, heavily subsidized education in his home country only to come to where the gold is? All while we're having debates over the motivations for people choosing the career of a physician too.

I understand that there are many shades of grey in between. I have a friend from a third world country who competed with something like 100,000 students for a spot in a medical university. There was no interview - only the entrance examination, and something like 30% of the seats were reserved to boot. The difference of a single question could make or break her chances. And that question could have been messed up for a myriad reasons that ultimately wouldn't matter. She did get in, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that we have a good thing here - a much better thing than most people around the world do. It's not perfect by far, but it's still pretty great. If you can't compete in this milieu, then going to greener pastures because you have the dough to do so, is questionable at best, and reprehensible at worst.

 

PS. I'm open to argument but please refrain from silly ad hominem attacks like "you so ignorant" and words like "elitist". Thanks

[Alastriss]

I feel quite strongly about this issue, so I have to speak up. I know several individuals personally who decided to go to Caribbean schools and do their medical education there after being rejected by Canadian schools. Not sure if I'm getting the exact numbers right but they needed a deposit of something like 200,000 dollars in order to do this. A lot of money in my book-which I highly doubt a Canadian bank would have loaned them. these are good people - they're intelligent, genial, kind - and heck, maybe they have all of the characteristics required to become physicians, but they didn't get into a Canadian medical school. I, on the other hand, applied after my fifth year, needed a loan, and anxious as I was, couldn't even fathom applying to the Caribbean or Ireland or other such places (as much as i drooled over the prospect of easy entry with my gpa and mcat scores). Is it fair to someone who isn't financially well to do to be in my boat? I don't believe so. What happens to all the reasonably well qualified applicants who didn't get into Canadian schools and don't have the means to attend an international school due to financial difficulties or other constraints? Are their hopes and dreams supposed to wither away while those of the socially elite are realized?

In my first year of undergraduate education, there were hundreds of hopeful premeds. As time and classes wore on, many of them bit the dust. Some had family problems that affected their grades. Others had to quit or drop out. Others just weren't serious enough. I myself had two years where I was a part time student working full time and got straight B's. Several doors were closed off due to these grades. No Ontario school was going to go through the hassle of asking me my extenuating circumstances (as compelling as they might have been) - they simply saw my grades and assessed them as uncompetitive. GPA Numbers don't speak stories for individuals, they just open or close doors. This is the way that admissions works - and it's harsh and brutal, but it's life. I would go off on some tangent of a socially inscribed notion of "survival of the fittest" combined with a helping of luck to describe this, but that's for another post.

At the same time, I have infinite respect for a good friend of mine, who tried for four consecutive years IN CANADA before she finally got in, despite the fact that she came from enough money that she could have easily gone the Caribbean route. I've heard of (and met) people who've tried 7 times and finally gotten in. I don't believe it's hard to see how their perseverance is far more worthy of my respect.

And then there are other concerns. Papazow raises a very valid point when he mentions the brain drain from other countries. Should we, as a country which has much to complain about in terms of losing able physicians to the United States, be promoting such policies of our own, especially with doctors from third world countries where there are even fewer doctors per inhabitant? Keep in mind too, that the doctors who WILL be allowed to practice here will be good doctors by Canadian standards - which could very possibly mean they would be excellent doctors by third world country standards. Is it moral to hire such a physician, who obtains an excellent, heavily subsidized education in his home country only to come to where the gold is? All while we're having debates over the motivations for people choosing the career of a physician too.

I understand that there are many shades of grey in between. I have a friend from a third world country who competed with something like 100,000 students for a spot in a medical university. There was no interview - only the entrance examination, and something like 30% of the seats were reserved to boot. The difference of a single question could make or break her chances. And that question could have been messed up for a myriad reasons that ultimately wouldn't matter. She did get in, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that we have a good thing here - a much better thing than most people around the world do. It's not perfect by far, but it's still pretty great. If you can't compete in this milieu, then going to greener pastures because you have the dough to do so, is questionable at best, and reprehensible at worst.

 

PS. I'm open to argument but please refrain from silly ad hominem attacks like "you so ignorant" and words like "elitist". Thanks

 

 

hey Samsara, nice post. your last phrase "reprehensible at worst" made me want to write this all out.

A few things, when you mentioned that it can't be completely ethical to go study in another country and then return to yours because you cost them money, then you have a point, however I can't say that you can also make the argument that people who can make the socioeconomic cutoff are reprehensible because high tuition fees = LESS government subsidization.

furthermore, those schools who accept internationals are probably aware of the fact that maybe the students they accept will leave. If it is a problem to them, then the shouldn't accept internationals.

 

Its not fair, and I absolutely agree with you. I am a guy whose parents have willingly offered to pay for everything, including pocket money, but i still work because I want to rely on my abilities and talents, and not say i got spoon fed.

As I said, its not fair, but as much as I would love to believe in this, who says that the world is SUPPOSED to be fair? palestinian kids who have lost their parents can attest to this, let alone starving children in Africa.

I would like you to elaborate more on what your point is, as i don't want to make any ignorant assumptions. I take it that your view is to look down on those who have lower than average marks that can pay their way through meds. In an economicalyl driven world, if you can afford it, then there's no reason why it should be at all unethical.

 

I won't go further until you respond, but i do want to close with this. I believe for people who are rich enough to get opportunities that other can't, they have an obligation to make something out of it. If i didn't get into a canadian med school. I would be able to go to a US school, and if i did, I would feel very uneasy knowing that some of my friends wouldn't have that option because they lack the doe. I would most certainly not deny myself the opportunity, but i would most certainly raise my personal standards and expect more out of myself because i was lucky enough to be in the position that I am. I would, as you would say...take on a personal 'debt'.

 

Thanks for reading, and hope to hear a response!

[The Law]

samsara, not everyone who goes elsewhere is rich. A lot of these people decided it was worth whatever massive debt that they would incur as a reult of their decision. I'd also like to say that if residency programs worked with international medical schools, or perhaps worked together to create a test to ensure that they did indeed come from a school that provided them with solid training, then the problems with training differences would not be so great. Canadians would benefit from the A) Boost in the number of doctors and I think also, The fact that Canada recognizes professionals from different countries, thus improving their immigration laws.

 

I understand your concern regarding having the money to pay, but this is a concern that always exists for anything. Some kids can't afford to even do undergraduate studies, is that fair? And as I mentioned earlier, a lot of these people did not have the money to pay - but took out big loans to accomplish their dreams. Is it fair that so many qualified people get rejected every yer from Canadian medical schools? In a country that is so developed, our students shouldn't be forced to going to other countries to get training!

 

Some people may feel that since the schools charge a lot then having money means you're guaranteed admission regardless of your academic capabilities. I don't think that this is really the case and if there was some standardized test (maybe like licencing exams), then the IMGs can take it to prove their capabilities. I don't know if something like this exists currently, but it's just something for people to think about rather than totally dismissing the idea of giving IMGs residency opportunities in the country.