Question: Sorry to bother the aspiring med students!

[Guest doctorped]

This is quite embarrassing to me but I am posting here because I am interested in a career change. I am very interested in medicine but I'm extremely concerned whether it is even an option. Therefore, I will dive right in and present my situation in the hope that someone here will offer some insight. But, let me apologize for taking your time if you read this. I doubt it is a typical situation. However, I thought I could be classified as a mature student? However, I am wondering if I'm too old or/and because of my previous experience at university that I might be out of this option.

 

I went to university but received poor marks and probably have a poor cumulative GPA. I didn't receive my transcript yet as I owe money still. Long story. I have been out of university for approximately seven years. Anyway, I have tried to read through the posts to learn whether you can go back to school to raise your marks/GPA in order to realistically apply for med school in the future. I am still unsure but it doesn't sound good. I'm also in my early thirties so I'm concerned that I made too many mistakes and now I have no chance.

 

One of the major reasons for my poor record at school is that I have had a problem with depression and this greatly effected my grades. I didn't seek any assistance and the internet wasn't so widespread then. Now, it seems there are forums everywhere for anything and it is these generous posters who have good ideas which would have helped. I was in denial about my condition as I thought I could deal with it myself. I am dealing with the issue now.

 

Anyway...

Can anyone here confirm if med schools accept an improved GPA? I have a B.A. So, currently, I'm just working to pay off debts but I plan to go back to school in the future. I want to pursue a career change and I really want to become a family physician.

 

I have read that schools consider your "two best years" or your "last two years" but would this still apply even if your previous years were only satisfactory? I was wondering if I could go back to school in the future and attempt to receive good grades over two years.

 

Comments?

[Guest scrubbed]

Hey there doctorped,

 

Thanks for sharing. If you explore the various posts out there, you will see that many people have taken non-traditional routes for medicine, so yours is not an isolated case.

 

You can go back to school to improve your GPA, though in Canada the process varies from school to school. For example, some schools require all of your academic record, even for courses completed some time ago, whereas some schools consider your most recent years.

 

As for schools requiring only two years that meet a ceratin cutoff: I know that Queen's requires two years and a MCAT above a cutoff, which for this year was 3.66 and 32, respectively.

 

Western also has a similar situation, where the scores required are 3.7 and 30; however, they also require that you complete an honours degree.

 

Mac has a minimum GPA requirement of 3.00 and no MCAT requirement, though they do consider your entire record. This may be an option.

 

Finally, Calgary acceptes more mature students, but they favor in province students for acceptance, so it depends on your residency status.

 

In sum, though your course may be more difficult, it is definitely possible. You could check out the relevant schools' forums, check their websites, and contact admissions if you desire more information.

 

Good luck!

[Guest doctorped]

Thank you, scrubbed! Your response is very much appreciated! I'm in Ontario so I am probably limited to the "in province" requirements for studies but I would take any route that is possible. I have no preferences regarding which med schools because I would feel fortunate if given the opportunity to attend any of them. I'm fully confident they are all solid schools. The Mac choice sounds appealing although with their criteria, I am sure it is especially competitive. However, I would be concerned what their judgement would be on my entire record. Anyway, like I said, I am not picky about it and it would be a matter of matching which ones give me a realistic chance.

 

I am mostly glad to hear someone inform me that my course is even possible. I was anticipating otherwise so it's a great relief. Thanks!

[Guest scrubbed]

In addition,

 

After my original post, I thought of another option--Northern Ontario Medical School. They have a lower minimum GPA cutoff (3.0) as well as preference for students who have lived in rural or Northern Ontario. You can check out their board if you desire more info.

[Guest nby]

on top of the fact that yes, you can improve your GPA with upgrading and that is what is important as far as most med school admissions are concerned, you have the option on most applications to explain early poor marks. Who would be more understanding about poor marks 10 years ago due to a medical condition like depression than doctors? It would probably be best if you can prove it with a diagnosis, but even if not, if you show a marked improvement in a few years of school now, and show you are now emotionally stable, I would think they would be most understanding and would consider your new marks only.

 

I should state here, this is speculation, I have no insight into this beyond going through the applications motions twice.

[Guest uteng]

I agree with the other comments about looking for schools which look at more recent marks (queen's and western for example). I don't know about Mac though. By all means, there is no harm in trying, but the feedback I got from them was it's 50% academic : 50% non-academic considering you're entire record.

 

I don't know if you're interested in research, or doing a professional (course-based) Master's, but that's another option. It was definitely a second chance for me - I was declined an interview by 8 of 9 schools I applied to mostly because of my low undergrad marks, but got one at UofT. If you can show solid marks in grad school, or good research productivity, you might be considered by UofT.

 

If you're playing odds though, I think the two years might be better spent doing undergrad courses - as that's what most schools seem to base their interview decision on.

 

Good luck!

[Guest CoconutSmasher]

Hey,

 

This is my first post on the sight. I thought it appropriate that I respond to someone in your position. Why? Well...

 

I'm turning 35 in a couple of weeks. I have a degree in Biochemistry/Kinesiology. I've been working in a variety of jobs for the past 15 years. My GPA is not competitive for a number of reasons. I've always wanted to go into medicine. So what do I do?

 

Well, during the course of some recent travels with my girlfriend, I was in the middle of the Thar desert in India, cleaning out a festering puncture wound on the bottom of our camel driver's foot. He didn't speak any english but we communicated just fine. I did the best I could with my limited supplies and then gave him some things to change the dressing and clean it over the next week as I would not ever see him again.

 

I'm not going to suggest some glorious revelation from this incident, but merely that it was another example to myself of what I REALLY love to do. So I am now back at home in Vancouver, and my life is busy.

 

I am training for the Ironman Triathlon, planning my wedding for October this year, studying for some entrance exams, and working to pay for it all. I am going to be going back to school from scratch. As my prerequisites are more than 10 years old I have to repeat them. My life looks like this: 2-4 years of undergrad, med school, residency, marriage, kids, some sort of life (all mixed together some how). I will be 47ish when I'm finally done (depending on specialty). So is that too much, too old, any chance? Let no one tell you the answers to these questions. Get all your information, do a severe gut check, put all your cards on the table...then YOU make the call. If it's too much or you have different priorities, then no shame in taking a different path. If it all falls into place for you then go ahead and just SMASH THE COCONUT!!!

 

Hope it gives you something. Best of luck.

Peace,

Stuart

[Guest doctorped]

Hey, you guys are just awesome! Thanks!

 

uteng, those are excellent points and advice to keep in mind. I studied Psych but I also took business courses. I would have to consider all possible options. Since all the schools have slightly different criteria (some require MCATs; some just your GPA and non-academic qualifications), I would have to look at what might give me the most realistic opportunity. I plan on volunteering before I go back to school so I hope that helps.

 

I'm not sure whether to take different undergrad courses towards a BSc or pursue a Masters.

 

Stuart, you are the man! That is just incredible. You put things in perspective so that it is so relieving for me. I am now concerned though about the repeating part, though. I graduated in '97. Well, I don't have the Science pre-requisites.

 

Thanks again for the ideas!

 

P.S. Congratulations, Stuart, on your marriage for Oct.!

[Guest Denny20]

doctorped I see you've already received some good info, but the university of saskatchewan may also be a possibility for you.

 

other than the MCAT, U of S only requires you to submit 2 years of undergraduate study, and they don't have to be consecutive, and are of your choosing. Also, the total prerequisite average only has to be 70% in order for them to consider you. once you meet the 70%, the prereqs no longer matter in your acceptance if you do not include them in your 2 years of full study.

 

If you need to raise the prereq average, you can do so by taking higher level classes in the same subject area.

 

goodluck to you.

[Guest CoconutSmasher]

Hey doctorped,

 

I'm glad I can help. As for the repeating part; I was only demonstrating "another" option if others do not pan out. I was in a position where I knocked on each "option door" successively and they closed (or appeared to be very unlikely to succeed) and ended up with this last route. It forced me to evaluate just how much I want this.

 

All the others posts are giving great information regarding your options. Remember there are a few bottom-line things for med school. They have a process to try and sift through a myriad of applications to determine who will have the brains, perseverence, compassion, etc..to be a productive physician. Consequently there is no formula. But first and foremost you must demonstrate the ability to handle academic information in a certain way. In other words, you may be in a position to raise your GPA by some post-bac type stuff. If you can take enough courses to do so then this might work. If you are taking prerequisites then a couple of solid years of undergrad science might give them what they are looking for. Ability to handle full course loads is IMPORTANT. And consistent grades (not necessarily stellar) over an extended period of time (i.e. not just one semester or two). After that, they can get to all the other stuff that you might have, or that they'll politely tell you to go and improve over the next year.

 

One note: I've talked with alot of people who did the Master's thing to improve on the GPA. Remember that many schools will look at ALL of your schooling and average, and some will not consider Grad work towards the application GPA but will consider the fact that you did the Masters degree. Basically, if you consider this route, be very sure that you WANT to do a master's and that you're interested in it genuinely. Otherwise you will not do as well as you need to. Also, I'm not sure what your GPA is, and I know that others have suggested certain schools based on lower "prereq" GPAs, but consider that those are minimum requirements. Most of the spots are given to candidates with higher values. Just check the stats on any med schools site for their most recent year. But again, consider all your options.

 

So, perhaps you may be able to drill a small hole in the coconut and gently suck out the milk. I, however, was forced to smash the damn thing!! Maybe one day we will end up having a beer after med school finals and I'll tell you why I smash coconuts!!

 

Peace,

Stuart

[Guest doctorped]

OH NO. I basically transferred some debt so I will be able to receive my transcript shortly. I checked my grades online and oh, they're so horrible! :eek

 

I either just forgot over the normal course of time or purposely erased it from my consciousness. It's bad. So now what? Perhaps, I really didn't have a chance as originally perceived? I don't even want to go into detail but I am left wondering what the option is. Apply to a university as a mature student? Is there any possibility that a university accepts you based on having university experience? I hope being out of school is actually an advantage in this case because it might be somewhat indicative that I can do better. I have medical documents that I sought treatment and assistance, too (note: a few years after graduation, though). But, most of all, I think my maturity would help me avoid the mistakes made before.

 

Does anyone have some advice? I had a plan to work for a bit and then apply even as early as next year. I don't even know what to shoot for now. I don't know if I'd get into a masters programme or whether I could take 2 years of further courses so I could raise my GPA and possibly pursue another program in case med school doesn't pan out.

[Guest uteng]

Hi doctorped,

 

Some schools like UofT will consider letters of special circumstances like medical conditions, and the like, to explain some low course marks but not overall low marks. From an admissions committee point of view, you can probably appreciate that they need to see some proof that you can handle the academic rigours of medical education, and high marks are a good way to judge how well you do in that environment.

 

I'm sure you can apply to universities as a mature student. You will definitely have more life experience that can help you while you're in school, though I'm not sure I follow you by how it could be an advantage in applying.

 

I haven't looked into it, but I don't think all Master's program require high marks to get into. Professional master's programs (course-based programs) may have lower entrance requirements. Research-based Master's on the other hand can be quite competitive. You'll probably need 75% to apply to those. The reason is that graduate scholarships like OGS and NSERC are purely academic based (marks and publications). If you can bring your own funding (or potentially bring your own funding) when you approach a program, you are much more attractive to graduate programs.

I myself had a 70s average and was accepted to my graduate program, I think, because I brought experience from my professional life to the program. When it came time for funding though, I got zero while most of my classmates got full funding. OGS and NSERC do not use professional experience in their selection criteria. Even though my last undergrad course was five years ago, it's the last academic mark on record (prior to my Master's) and it keeps coming back to haunt me. Med applications are no exception.

 

Bottom line, you have options, you can complete two years of undergrad courses (probably the easiest path), or try to find an appropriate Master's program.

 

I would also seriously consider if medicine is for you. It's a huge amount of sacrifices, the training is long, and it really isn't for everyone. However, if you are convinced medicine is for you despite all the hurdles, I say go for it.

[Guest doctorped]

uteng, I absolutely understand the p.o.v. of the Admissions committees wanting the high averages to illustrate their standards and reasonably predict your academic potential. Not to mention, like you said, its design in predicting how you may fare in the academic environment.

 

But, I want to make clear, my own point of view. I just want another opportunity and I think it is fair to say that I might have changed since my time at school. Yes, I had a lot of problems during my scholastic years and I am 100% certain this had a major impact on my decisions and my academic performance. I'm not saying, I'm a genuis now and I'll ace all my classes but I would like to have another chance to prove I can succeed (I consider my past university years a failure).

 

I described the possibility of going back to university as a mature student being an advantage only because it may be my only option. The advantage being I can start fresh. I don't think my current record will fly under standard qualifications so the mature student status may be my only recourse? I'm not sure how it works, though.

 

Two years of undergrad sounds like the best idea, I agree.

 

I am concerned about the hurdles and obstacles regarding any scenario of med school. If it was possible, in a hypothetical scenario, I would accumulate more debt and must be sure that is the route I want to take.

 

I am trying to keep my options open. I have a diverse range of interests so I am open to other careers and goals but each time I look at other options, I realize I am not losing any interest in medicine. I am currently trying to maintain the attitude of pursuing my goals and if it doesn't pan out, turning to plan B whatever that is.

[Guest Elaine I]

Hi doctorped,

 

I am in my late 20's, six years into working in another health profession (paramedicine), and am just finishing my two years of undergrad studies since returning to university. Ten years ago, I started university and did horribly. I believed that I had closed all med school doors; however, fortunately, there are schools where these past two years of undergrad will be the deciding factor for med school, rather than my overall GPA.

 

Western, Queen's, Dalhousie and Calgary only consider two years of courses when evaluating applicants (maybe Saskatchewan as well, but I'm not sure, since I have no desire to take all of their required courses, when I'd still be an OOP applicant). With the first two of these (and the third, if you are from the Maritimes), if you meet the cuts for GPA and MCAT, you are essentially guaranteed an interview. The MCAT cuts are slightly higher; however, ZERO weighting is put on your earlier course work. Approximately half the applicants interviewed get into med school each year. I'm hopeful that my life experience will help push me into the top half of interviewees.

 

Three years ago, when I decided to go back to university, I knew it wouldn't be realistic to try for schools where everything was counted. I actually figured out that I would need 10 years of a 3.9 average to bring my overall GPA to the required 3.0 for Mac! So, I decided to do the two years of undergrad (while still working full time), and apply where my chances were best. I also applied to U of T, asking for "special consideration", and believe that I at least made it to file review (based on my refusal letter not arriving until the end of March). (My overall GPA was so low when I applied to university, that I actually had to do one year of part-time studies on probation to "prove myself". Once I received good marks that year, I was able to register full time for the following year, so I could start my two full time years of undergrad.)

 

I also looked into doing a Master's program; however, realized that more undergrad courses (5.0 per year for two years) with high marks would take me further than a Master's degree.

 

If you are truly dedicated to medicine, you CAN do it. It is a lot of work, especially if you are going to continue working. There are sacrifices. Many of my friends are done school, and have more time for social activities. I won't be done until my mid-30s, which may delay or at least change things regarding marriage, kids, etc. However, I don't regret my decision. I figure that when I'm 60 and looking back on my life, I won't care whether I've been a physician for 25 or 35 years. In fact, I may even feel privledged that I had the opportunity to do more than one thing career-wise in my life.

 

I wish you all the success. It IS possible, if you are committed. Best wishes!!

 

Elaine

[Guest EngineeringStud]

Great thread.

Thanks for posting Elaine. I am in the same situation. Late 20's, horrible undergrad marks (Engineering, 'nuff said :x ). I am going to start fresh with a new undergrad starting this September, after having worked for 4 years. I guess you are where I hope to be at in 2 years.

 

Good luck all!

[Guest doctorped]

My residency status would be Ontario.

 

It appears my most realistic, or should I say, feasible (?) choices are Queen's and Western. However:

*Western also has a similar situation, where the scores required are 3.7 and 30; however, they also require that you complete an honours degree. *

I suppose my option is restricted to Queen's after 2 years of undergrad study and failing that, a second attempt and another two years so that I can apply at Western? :-/ However, I would have to be in an honours program or be able to transfer to Honours at some point?

 

I believe Elaine's calculation applies to myself as well. I probably should find the exact numbers but I am quite certain it would be several years before I could raise it to a suitable cGPA. (probably 3.0 as well) :-/ So, Mac is out? Therefore, am I looking at two years and praying I get into Queen's while trying to steer the education towards an Honours Degree so I could apply at Western? Queen's sounds like the shortest route but that is putting all my eggs in one basket.

 

I think my residency status would rule out the U of S and Calgary, right?

 

Am I missing something or did I analyze my options accurately? It's good to obtain this info so I can assess my chances realistically.

 

Anyway, again, thanks for the comments and advice! Elaine, thanks for the additional info! It's appreciated.

[Guest EngineeringStud]

Doctorped,

You mentioned that you have a previous degree (albeit with low marks). Regardless of your marks, and as long as you passed, wouldn't that satisfy the degree requirement, allowing you get by with only two more years of GPA-boosting studies? That is, if your previous degree was an honours degree.

 

If it was a general degree, there are some universities that will allow you to upgrade it to an honours degree with a couple more years of study. This might be an alternative for you.

If you want to do a different major, you can do what I am doing and transfer some credits over. For example the University of Guelph will grant up to 10 credits as transfer. That means you could do a new honours degree in 2 years!

:smokin