theblueprints Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Would any of you current UBC med students care to share your opinions and experiences with the UBC med curriculum? i.e. experience with case based vs. self directed learning, interaction with faculty, clinical experience in the first two years, anything that you think sets UBC apart from other schools. I've been looking through the med website and find that there is very little information there to "sell" the program to potential candidates....or if there is I'm having a hard time finding it. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuantum Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 I found that too. However, I have my own reason for why I want to go there so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physiology Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Positives: Early clinical exposure New facilities (gross anatomy lab, LSC, Diamond Centre) Living in Vancouver Good research facilities & ample research opportunities Vancouver is a tertiary care medical centre Distributed programs that cater to the specific needs of all applicants Expansion of residency spots Can be viewed as a plus or minus: PBL DPAS Negatives: -Rapidly expanding program -Clinical exposure - expanding CTU at Royal Columbian, hospitals that are not used to students/residents (PG & Victoria area hospitals), overcrowded clinical skills groups, non-ideal family practice preceptors (ie. going to a walk in clinic or going out to White Rock, etc), poor preparation in 2nd year for surgical specialties (ie. not enough suturing workshops) -Expensive tuition - $14000 + all other expenses -Vancouver rain - living on the "Wet" coast -For our class (class of 2008) - being guinea pigs. Everything was brand new for us (expansion program) and now they've changed our 4th year. We have a mandatory BC elective between Sept & Nov, that we have to choose on a lottery system basis. So we rank our top 3 choices but we don't get to choose the timing of the elective until our match results are back. This essentially throws a wrench into things because I can't book my other out of province or BC electives yet. Maximum of 8 weeks in any discipline for 4 year electives (ie. max 8 weeks of surgery - which for the time being, includes ALL specialties, ie. if you do 4 weeks of ENT and then 4 weeks of urology, you're out of luck, no more surgery for the rest of the year). Physio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanttobedoc Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 wow, Physiology, great list! One ignorant question on my part... what is DPAS? I am assuming PBL is (problem based learning). The rain negative is funny, it reminds me of David Ducovennay (sp?) comments he made about filming the X-files in Vancouver (I'm dating myself). I actually love the rain, but I'm from here. thanks for all your input, much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avenir001 Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 think I've heard DPAS before...doctor, patient, & society?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBCmed09 Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 think I've heard DPAS before...doctor, patient, & society?? Ahh, a common mistake young grasshopper: it is in fact "Doctor, DENTIST, Patient & Society" It is the bane of most UBC med students' existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanttobedoc Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 Ahh, a common mistake young grasshopper: it is in fact "Doctor, DENTIST, Patient & Society" It is the bane of most UBC med students' existence. Thanks, that makes sense. So, it is basically a multidiscipline course where focus is on the social/cultural aspects of health within an evidenced based context of providing care? It sounds so "jargony" on the website....is this where some of the problem based learning and case studies occur? Also, I remember reading something about, a "biological-behavioural-population paragdigm", can someone further expand on what this means? I am assuming it is the theory base or the "lens" that a clinician "looks through" that guides them in their assessment and clinical skills? Something to do with looking at the patient in terms of all aspects of their disease "holistically" as opposed to the traditional disease focussed approach of yester years... am I on the right track? The UBC website is very informative but further clarification would help me if anyone has more to add to this....thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubcredfox Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 UBC is a strange school, just because I think the admin thinks that because it's in Vancouver people will flock here like bees to honey. Not really. I understand your inability to find anything to sell the program. They really don't. Not at the interview, not at the info sessions (my opinion) and is completely opposite to all the other interviews I had. As far as the program goes: PRO -Clinical exposure early [caveat: can be crap depending on family preceptor demeanor/location in 1st/2nd yr. For instance, i was out in Langley 1st term, 1st yr. I have no car.] -Self-directed. Believe u me. U get out what u put in. If u really want to learn something u have to do it on your own i.e. minimal spoon feeding. I like that. -The class: compared to cut-throat UBC undergrad, the class is awesome. I've met some pretty incredible people and I'm really quite satisfied with everyone I've come in contact with. You can really relate/be friends/work with your peers. It's awesome. By far the strongest PRO for me. -Facilities: Life Sciences Centre, Diamond Centre (new) - new facilities are like those found in the US (sortof). -Extra opportunities: great shadowing database (to shadow docs in different specialties!), lots of international opportunities etc. etc. This helps flush out the experience -the MSAC: Medical Alumni Centre JUST for med students, with a small gym (yay), meeting rooms, places to study. Kool. Where the wine and cheese is. CONS: -Very poor administration: UBC administration is heralded far as caring for its students as much as a dog does for the neat coiled stools it leaves on the grass. Admin is organization is very poor, usually unhelpful and unreliable - they're favorite answer to any of your problems "it's on the web" or to requests "NO!" Little student input into program (despite words to contrary) -Distributed site in infancy: as previous poster mentioned, this is really developing right now. They have problems with finding everyone rotation spots, adequate training etc. -Living in Vancouver: more traffic then u can shake a stick at. Horrible city planning. Massive construction everywhere. Expensive. Aside from the outdoors, Vancouver is a mediocre city [waiting for flame war]. -PBL: If I were to choose again, I WOULD NOT have come here because of the amount of Problem Based Learning. I would choose a school with less of it, and more lectures just because there is LOTS to know, and I'd rather have it all thrown at me now then being on the ward and finding out "Oh, that's the heart! That wasn't in PBL... :(" -Anatomy: We do NOT spend enough time in the anatomy lab. US schools spend a full year, with nearly double the hours in the lab. The lab isn't open 24hrs/7 days as it is at other schools (major downside to flex time). Usually open 9-5 weekdays and on saturday from 11-4(?- not sure if that's exactly right). Much of the time it's open you're in class, so not exactly useful. If I were u, I'd use DPAS lecture time to spend in the lab. Another 3 hours a week. I like anatomy and think it's a privelage to learn from bodies so I'd really like to see more of it. My 2 cents. Conclusion: I've been to many different universities (Canada, US, Europe) and I've seen my share of facilities met many other students etc etc. There are pluses and minuses to every program. I knew going into UBC that I wasn't going to be handed Grade A medical education on a plater. U get out what you put in, and I think this depends on anywhere u go. If you decide on UBC you can be a great physician, but you'll have to work at it, and put up with some admin crap from time to time. The people are fantastic, the outdoors are there (though a sometimes agonizing slow time away), and there is lots of clinical learning potential. You'll just have to find it. I guess that's all I've got right now. Don't know if that helps, but I hope it does. My top advice: GO WHERE U FEEL LIKE GOING. Wherever u go, and you feel that warm and fuzzy feeling is the school for you. And u know what warm and fuzzy feeling I'm talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuantum Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 Interesting post. Thanks for the candid assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssc427 Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 I echo what ubcredfox said. DPAS blows, PBL is in general a big waste of time, and not enough anatomy, histology and other stuff I figured I'd need to know to keep patients alive. The UBC curriculum is outstanding if you want to be a GP or do community medicine, less so if you are into surgery etc…. That being said AMPLE opportunities are provided for shadowing so you can pick up the things which are important to you then. It is very much a get out of it what you put in program. Also, clin skills resources, family practice and supportive staff are excellent at the distributed sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirsteen Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 CONS: -Distributed site in infancy: as previous poster mentioned, this is really developing right now. They have problems with finding everyone rotation spots, adequate training etc. -Anatomy: We do NOT spend enough time in the anatomy lab. US schools spend a full year, with nearly double the hours in the lab. The lab isn't open 24hrs/7 days as it is at other schools (major downside to flex time). Usually open 9-5 weekdays and on saturday from 11-4(?- not sure if that's exactly right). Much of the time it's open you're in class, so not exactly useful. Hi there, A few years back, I was faced with the choice of UBC or UofC. Two of the big cons for me re: UBC were some mentioned above. For one, it was the inaugural year of the UBC tri-campus expansion. At the interview information session they didn't have enough room to fit all of us in the lecture hall, and I'd heard that other facilities were similarly planned, so that didn't appeal. Secondly, I would have been much happier having been among the second cohort of students to have proceeded through their new program. Thirdly, I'd also heard that there were some issues re: adequate Anatomy facilities, which seems to have been echoed above. There are many more reasons than the above for ruling in/out a given medical program, but these are a few that weighed heavily on my own mind. Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sudoku Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 I disagree with the "inadequate anatomy time" comment. Anatomy will be taught again in greater details as you approach other blocks. Other schools may have it over 1 year (or even really intense over a few weeks). How much do you really remember by 3rd year? UBC tends to spread out things and repeat/review. I can see the desire to learn everything you can so you'll be a great doctor,but the sad reality is that you'll forget things- unless the material get repeated so many times that it becomes second nature. But then again, maybe i'm not smart enough and need reviews more than others. I'm pro-PBL. You get what you put into it. But the biggest learning thing about PBL is how to problem solve and how to work in a team and how to present your view/your material. I don't think the material/case itself is the thing to be learnt but rather it's the process of researching the info and presenting of your point of view/ supporting your answers. I've had my bedside teaching last month and trust me, all the PBL stuff came back in a flash when i was "grilled" by my supervising doctor. What is the patient's problem? How do you investigate this problem? what else may youask/ do? What is the pathophysiology for this problem? what's your ddx? what's the most likely explanation? All PBL's stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssc427 Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 Thirdly, I'd also heard that there were some issues re: adequate Anatomy facilities, which seems to have been echoed above. But you chose UofC over UBC no? I thought UofC doesn't even have ANY mandatory cadaver dissection component of the curriculum. UBC does at least make you go through things intensely in the first 4 months, then neuro, msk and other organs systems are dissected throughout the remaining two pre-clinical years. So while I think UBC is weak compared to many US schools, I do think they are better off than some other Canadian schools. But even still with UBCs curriculum there are whole swathes of muscles etc… which are never mentioned during the curriculum. Again though, if anatomy etc... is your thing, UBC provides ample time to learn the extra things you want to know. And while the hours are a bit unflexible the facilities themselves are fine. Again, one for the distributed sites, we have brand new ultra-expensive downdraft tables similar to what might be found at 'top' US schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lll Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 hey...ok unrelated but i couldn't find it anywhere...i am an undergrad at UWO with two yr (currently in 2nd yr)...but i havent understood how they claculate the GPA or academic average for oop ppl... ________ BMW Z4 history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirsteen Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 But you chose UofC over UBC no? I thought UofC doesn't even have ANY mandatory cadaver dissection component of the curriculum. UBC does at least make you go through things intensely in the first 4 months, then neuro, msk and other organs systems are dissected throughout the remaining two pre-clinical years. So while I think UBC is weak compared to many US schools, I do think they are better off than some other Canadian schools. Hi there, Yep, I did choose UofC over UBC. There were many factors that contributed to this decision. Regarding the Anatomy point, it wasn't the lack of mandatory cadaver dissections that got me, but the overcrowding at the various facilities including the Anatomy labs. (I'd heard this directly from some folks at UBC at the time.) Every school has pros and cons for every individual applicant. In short, you've got to determine what are the factors that are most important to you. A thread like this highlights some points of one program and perhaps provides a bit of fodder for folks who are in need of making up their own pro/con lists. Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 hey...ok unrelated but i couldn't find it anywhere...i am an undergrad at UWO with two yr (currently in 2nd yr)...but i havent understood how they claculate the GPA or academic average for oop ppl... I believe the same way as IP: percentage average of all courses taken (including summer), and percentage calculation of last 60 credits (10 full course equivalent). This determines interview. They also calculate percentage average of the pre-requisite courses (biology, chemistry, physics, english, biochemistry...I think that's all of them). This comes into factor after interview when splitting people between admission vs. rejection post-interview. Note that the OOP % averages are usually quite a bit higher than IP % averages, so OOP still have disadvantage (higher expecation...however you want to put it) compared to IP in UBC (just like in other schools). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuantum Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 Also, what is the opportunity like for research. Are you able to transfer to MD/PhD after first year? Also, how much free time do the med. students have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physiology Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Anatomy It's not bad I guess - the time we get in the anatomy lab is sufficient. Although, I've heard from clinical preceptors that UBC students' knowledge of anatomy is quite WEAK. That said - at least we get cadavers at UBC. Some schools like Calgary for instance, offer their students prosections only. other schools like U of T offer a 2 or 3 month anatomy course at the very beginning of first year and pack it all in there. I guess it really depends. In the end, in residency, you learn your anatomy anyway. However, when I was doing my orthopedics rotation, my anatomy was crap, because I'd forgotten it all and plus MSK isn't really my thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ffp Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 LOL... I'm not from UBC, and have no experience with their med school other than talking to some current IM residents who have trained there. I decided to respond to this post, though, because when reading about the pros and cons of UBC med, I was thinking "Hey, are you sure you aren't really talking about U of A???" because that's where I trained and it sounded like the pros and cons were really identical (or at least analogous). I think it just goes to show that each program is going to have its strengths and weaknesses, and the key is finding the program (and city) where you fit in. Just to illustrate similarities/differences, I'll compare the pros and cons already listed for UBC to my U of A experience (1999-2003) PRO -Clinical exposure early [caveat: can be crap depending on family preceptor demeanor/location in 1st/2nd yr. For instance, i was out in Langley 1st term, 1st yr. I have no car.] Ditto for U of A. Ambulatory clinics in 1st and 2nd year med... in my opinion, these could make or break your opinion of FP, depending on where you were assigned -Self-directed. Believe u me. U get out what u put in. If u really want to learn something u have to do it on your own i.e. minimal spoon feeding. I like that. Hmmm... somewhat applicable to med school everywhere I think. Moreso with some programs, but ALL programs in the country are moving toward self-directed learning. In fact, some programs have recently been knocked by accreditation for having too much didactic time and not enough "self-directed learning" (ie sleep) time. -The class: compared to cut-throat UBC undergrad, the class is awesome. I've met some pretty incredible people and I'm really quite satisfied with everyone I've come in contact with. You can really relate/be friends/work with your peers. It's awesome. By far the strongest PRO for me. Would be VERY dependent on the chemistry of the class you get into. For example... U of A 2002 - snobby, backstabbing, anal, hypercompetitive U of A 2003 - we all got along well, but were labelled as "lazy and stupid". -Facilities: Life Sciences Centre, Diamond Centre (new) - new facilities are like those found in the US (sortof). Each school will have some fancy drawing features. U of S has the synchotron... U of M has the Level 4 infectious disease lab... -Extra opportunities: great shadowing database (to shadow docs in different specialties!), lots of international opportunities etc. etc. This helps flush out the experience This was good at U of A as well, but you had to seek it out -the MSAC: Medical Alumni Centre JUST for med students, with a small gym (yay), meeting rooms, places to study. Kool. Where the wine and cheese is. Ok, this sounds very cool! CONS: -Very poor administration: UBC administration is heralded far as caring for its students as much as a dog does for the neat coiled stools it leaves on the grass. Admin is organization is very poor, usually unhelpful and unreliable - they're favorite answer to any of your problems "it's on the web" or to requests "NO!" Little student input into program (despite words to contrary) LOL are you sure you're not talking about U of A??? When I was there, the office staff ranged from nice but useless to evil and more useless. The administration did not respect the students or treat us like intelligent human beings... ie. For class of 2002, they had an "optional" OSCE at the end of 4th year - for students to get an idea of their clinical strengths and weaknesses. The majority chose not to attend. What did they do for my class? Made it mandatory, even though it was 1wk before MCCQE, and 2002 had 100% pass rate on MCCQE despite the majority not doing the OSCE. Seems we're not intelligent enough to decide for ourselves what is beneficial for our learning. this was typical... -Distributed site in infancy: as previous poster mentioned, this is really developing right now. They have problems with finding everyone rotation spots, adequate training etc. Distributed sites not an issue at U of A, but with the overlap of 3rd and 4th years on the wards, we were tripping over each other at times, and it got hard to set up electives. -Living in Vancouver: more traffic then u can shake a stick at. Horrible city planning. Massive construction everywhere. Expensive. Aside from the outdoors, Vancouver is a mediocre city [waiting for flame war]. LOL... I would love to live in Vancouver (if it was affordable), but my husband would develop Seasonal Affective Disorder. I HATED the city of Edmonton... although most people I have met in Saskatoon consider Edmonton to be paradise. -PBL: If I were to choose again, I WOULD NOT have come here because of the amount of Problem Based Learning. I would choose a school with less of it, and more lectures just because there is LOTS to know, and I'd rather have it all thrown at me now then being on the ward and finding out "Oh, that's the heart! That wasn't in PBL... " PBL can be a pro or a con. It depends on your facilitator and our group. For example, we had a DENTIST teach our resp PBL. She had NO CLUE, and we wandered waaaaay off topic. Totally useless sessions. We had an evil witch from hell facilitate our renal block. The shy ones in the group were afraid to speak up, then she threatened to fail them for "not contributing". Not an environment conducive to learning! Our cardio preceptor (although a rheumatologist) was golden. His simple explanations are what turned me onto cardio (my current field). PBL is valuable for learning to think clinically at an early stage, but you NEED some didactics or directed reading to go along with it. Junior med students don't know what's relevant (PGY-2s don't know what's relevant half the time, and I'm sure I still ramble on the phone to my consultant when describing weird arrhythmias!). Bottom line... PBL can be good or bad... and is not the be all and end all. -Anatomy: We do NOT spend enough time in the anatomy lab. US schools spend a full year, with nearly double the hours in the lab. The lab isn't open 24hrs/7 days as it is at other schools (major downside to flex time). Usually open 9-5 weekdays and on saturday from 11-4(?- not sure if that's exactly right). Much of the time it's open you're in class, so not exactly useful. If I were u, I'd use DPAS lecture time to spend in the lab. Another 3 hours a week. I like anatomy and think it's a privelage to learn from bodies so I'd really like to see more of it. My 2 cents. You see to me this is a pro!!! Anatomy lab at U of A was flexible... we had scheduled lab time, but not strictly mandatory. Lab door was coded and open to students 24/7. Problem was, I felt compelled to go all the time, or my group mates thought I was lazy. I couldn't learn anything in the lab. there were too many distractions, and I couldn't relate what I was seeing in the cadaver to what we studied in class, or what was described in the dissector. The formaldehyde exacerbated my asthma and made my eyes run. My first 3 anatomy exams saw grades in the 60s (unheard of for me). It was partway through 2nd year when I realized that I could raise those grades to 90s by skipping the lab and studying from Rohan's atlas at home! So LESS anatomy would have been a bonus for me! I guess the pro for U of A is that you had the freedom to choose as much or as little as you wanted/needed. Oh yeah... DPAS.... we had POM/D ie. "Practice of Medicine and Dentistry" ie. mandatory lectures and several hours of my life that I will NEVER HAVE BACK! They sound pretty equivalent. My top advice: GO WHERE U FEEL LIKE GOING. Wherever u go, and you feel that warm and fuzzy feeling is the school for you. And u know what warm and fuzzy feeling I'm talking about I agree wholeheartedly. I think every program in Canada will provide you with a fairly equivalent education in the end. The key is finding the program you fit into best... because it can be a great 3-4 years or a miserable 3-4 years! Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubcredfox Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Good post! I like the comparison. I never interviewed at U of A, but it's nice to know that somethings are pretty equivelant across the country! haha... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcgirl33 Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 UBC is a strange school, just because I think the admin thinks that because it's in Vancouver people will flock here like bees to honey. Not really. I understand your inability to find anything to sell the program. They really don't. Not at the interview, not at the info sessions (my opinion) and is completely opposite to all the other interviews I had. I agree. Was anyone else totally dissapointed with the UBC interview experience? CONS: - Very poor administration: UBC administration is heralded far as caring for its students as much as a dog does for the neat coiled stools it leaves on the grass. Admin is organization is very poor, usually unhelpful and unreliable - they're favorite answer to any of your problems "it's on the web" or to requests "NO!" Little student input into program (despite words to contrary) - Distributed site in infancy: as previous poster mentioned, this is really developing right now. They have problems with finding everyone rotation spots, adequate training etc. Can anyone in the 2011 class shed any light on this? Has the situation improved (was it ever that bad)? After visiting other schools and seeing how well they support the students (in planning observorships, electives, etc) I'm getting a bit concerned. I don't know if anyone has felt this, but being from Vancouver I always just took it for granted that UBC would be my first choice -- and as the interview process goes on I find myself stacking up PROS for all other schools and not UBC. Of course I'll go wherever I'm lucky enough to get in, but if anyone has positive insight into the UBC system I'd appreciate it since I can see this being a real deal-breaker. Thanks a ton:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr nomis Posted April 6, 2008 Report Share Posted April 6, 2008 Ahh, a common mistake young grasshopper: it is in fact "Doctor, DENTIST, Patient & Society" It is the bane of most UBC med students' existence. You are correct about it being the bane of most UBC meds' existence. The only silver lining is that while there is mandatory tutorial attendance weekly, and the odd assignment to hand in, there is NO final exam for this course. Pretty much the only course we take that I can say that about. However, DPAS (not DDPAS) is ONLY for medical students. As of this year, dental students have their own new course called PACS - "Professionalism and Community Service." But as bad as DPAS is, every dent I've talked to has said that they would much rather have been in DPAS than in PACS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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