MD/PhD programs vs MD

[Alastriss]

Are MD/PhD more competitive or less competitive than regular MD programs generally speaking..and is it easier to apply to MD/PhD after you get into med school or is it about the same difficulty whether u apply in 1st year meds or in undergrad? Thanks in advance

[tooty]

At the University of Calgary, the MD/PhD and MD/MSc combined programs are are each handled separately. That is, your MD application is assessed independ of your application into a PhD program. Likewise for the MD/MSc combined program. You can also apply to the PhD program while in the MD program without any interference, and vice versa. I don't believe there's a maximum on the number of students in the combined programs.

[Guest gleevec]

The one thing that might be a little easier after you are already in medical school is to find a supervisor. At some schools MD/PhD applicants bring extra funding in, so supervisors might be more willing to take them on. Plus, if you are already attending the medical school, they know that you are already attached to the location. Of course, if you want to have a particular supervisor or really want to do research in one area, it won't hurt to apply earlier.

[abcabc]

Going into MD/PhD is absurd. You're either a sane person in which case you'll become a doctor, or the opposite, in which case you'll do a PhD.

 

Most of my buddies in MD/PhD are thinking about dropping out of the PhD. A few are serious about doing it, but even they don't know what they'll end up doing with the PhD.

[Kuantum]

To do the MD/PhD, it something you have to be absolutely sure about because not only does it separately require the effort and commitment to complete a PhD and an MD. But, imagine doing both...that's a lot of intense training. On top of all of that, you still have to do a residency, usually a clinical fellowship and maybe a research fellowship to operate a basic science research lab. It is a huge commitment, and it's not a decision that should be made without a lot reflection.

[Alastriss]

To do the MD/PhD, it something you have to be absolutely sure about because not only does it separately require the effort and commitment to complete a PhD and an MD. But, imagine doing both...that's a lot of intense training. On top of all of that, you still have to do a residency, usually a clinical fellowship and maybe a research fellowship to operate a basic science research lab. It is a huge commitment, and it's not a decision that should be made without a lot reflection.

 

What makes you think i haven't considered the implications, let alone gathered an informed idea of what these implications are?

I do agree with what the previous two posters have said..and thanks for all for responding to my post!

[Kirsteen]

To do the MD/PhD, it something you have to be absolutely sure about because not only does it separately require the effort and commitment to complete a PhD and an MD. But, imagine doing both...that's a lot of intense training. On top of all of that, you still have to do a residency, usually a clinical fellowship and maybe a research fellowship to operate a basic science research lab. It is a huge commitment, and it's not a decision that should be made without a lot reflection.

Hi there,

 

If you really love the research then a good alternative is to complete the PhD (or a MSc.) when in residency. In that regard, you receive a resident's salary for each year you're within the graduate program and you can tailor your research to your clinical interests, which are often more well-formed in residency than in medical school. To boot, there's all sorts of research you can complete: basic science, epidemiology or education. Lastly, it's also a lot easier to take time out to complete research during residency than during your years of practice when it can be a lot tougher to convince a department or your partners to let you take time out to do things other than clinical work. Overall, this is an option that I find very alluring and am considering this now.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Kuantum]

What makes you think i haven't considered the implications, let alone gathered an informed idea of what these implications are?

I do agree with what the previous two posters have said..and thanks for all for responding to my post!

 

I don't know if you have an informed idea...but I'm just saying if it's something you think you may not like, then it's probably not the thing for you. A little trepidation is totally understandable when making big decisions like these and should be expected. Just make sure you know what you are getting into seems like the message these programs are sending out.

 

Like Kirsteen mentioned...there is also always the opportunity to do graduate studies when you have a solid idea of the field you are in so that you can tailor your research to that.

[Alastriss]

I don't know if you have an informed idea...but I'm just saying if it's something you think you may not like, then it's probably not the thing for you. A little trepidation is totally understandable when making big decisions like these and should be expected. Just make sure you know what you are getting into seems like the message these programs are sending out.

 

Like Kirsteen mentioned...there is also always the opportunity to do graduate studies when you have a solid idea of the field you are in so that you can tailor your research to that.

 

Hey, thanks for the post. I realize the crazy amount of work and dedication to be in an MD/PhD program, and from all those that I have talked to who are in the MD/PhD program, they live eat and breath research/work. And like you said, it is not a decision that is to be made with haste, so exploring the option thoroughly is pivotal.

My supervisor says that the PhD you obtain in the MD/PhD program is not nearly as of the same quality as you would if you did a PhD on its own, mainly because its just rushed in the 3(or4) years as opposed to the average 5 years that it would take. My supervisor is one of those who is "pro-scientific research, not-so-much-pro-medicine" and so I think that she has a bias.It doesn't make sense to say that the PhD given is of "lesser" quality than other PhD, but is there any validity behind her claim?

 

As for what Kirsteen suggested, are the residency years additive? for example, if one were to want to do cardiology with a PhD in the dept. of physiology how would that work? 3 years IM + 5 years PhD + 2 Years fellowship?

[toffeetree]

Hi there,

 

If you really love the research then a good alternative is to complete the PhD (or a MSc.) when in residency. In that regard, you receive a resident's salary for each year you're within the graduate program and you can tailor your research to your clinical interests, which are often more well-formed in residency than in medical school. To boot, there's all sorts of research you can complete: basic science, epidemiology or education. Lastly, it's also a lot easier to take time out to complete research during residency than during your years of practice when it can be a lot tougher to convince a department or your partners to let you take time out to do things other than clinical work. Overall, this is an option that I find very alluring and am considering this now.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

 

I think the hardest time to do research would be during residency, though. The reason why people do MD/PhD is that the PhD gives you protected time to train as a scientist and pursue some ideas. After an MD/PhD education, things get extremely complicated, as it is difficult to get the funding that would allow you to be relieved of clinical duties to pursue research. And in the MD/PhD, you have 2 years of medical school (typically) before the PhD portion, and in these 2 years, you can do rotations in the summer and form some research interests through the medical coursework. Most MD/PhD applicants have done a lot of research before in high school and college, and do not want to stop for 4+ years.

 

In a good MD/PhD program, the quality of the PhD should be as high as a "real PhD". This is because most graduate coursework can overlap with medical school coursework, so in your 3rd year of MD/PhD, you can jump straight into research. Most MD/PhD students also don't have to TA classes. All of these things save time...MD/PhD students just tend to be more focused in their research, knowing that they still have 2 more medical school years left.

[Kuantum]

Also, I thought UofT had the 9-year MD/PhD - 4 years MD + 5 years PhD (not in that order)? I remember at a MD/PhD talk at UBC, they explicitly said that just because the PhD time was 3 years, it didn't mean that less work was expected. In fact, they stressed just how much work it would be because it was 3 years.

[toffeetree]

Also, I thought UofT had the 9-year MD/PhD - 4 years MD + 5 years PhD (not in that order)? I remember at a MD/PhD talk at UBC, they explicitly said that just because the PhD time was 3 years, it didn't mean that less work was expected. In fact, they stressed just how much work it would be because it was 3 years.

 

ouch. 9 years is really pushing it. 7-8 years should be the goal.

[Kuantum]

ya...i know some people who don't go to UofT for that reason...9 years in med. school is really long - even for MD/PhD

[Kirsteen]

I think the hardest time to do research would be during residency, though. The reason why people do MD/PhD is that the PhD gives you protected time to train as a scientist and pursue some ideas. After an MD/PhD education, things get extremely complicated, as it is difficult to get the funding that would allow you to be relieved of clinical duties to pursue research. And in the MD/PhD, you have 2 years of medical school (typically) before the PhD portion, and in these 2 years, you can do rotations in the summer and form some research interests through the medical coursework. Most MD/PhD applicants have done a lot of research before in high school and college, and do not want to stop for 4+ years.

Hi there,

 

Just to clarify, some Canadian residency programs provide full salary support during residency for those residents wishing to pursue a graduate degree. If you're keen on seeing some of the benefits check out the UofT Surgical Scientist webpage. That is, say your PhD were to take 4 years after the second year of residency, then during those 4 years you would be paid just as a PGY 3-7 would. There aren't many graduate salary support programs that will offer salaries of that calibre. Additionally, during the years of your graduate work, most programs will relieve you of clinical duties so you are free to pursue your research. Generally, all that is required is participating in some rounds and presenting at the annual research days, the former which you'd probably wish to do to stay plugged into your clinical field and the latter you'd naturally do anyway to showcase your research work.

 

At this point, although I did research prior to entering medical school, I'm happy that I'm pursuing research during residency. Certainly, if I'd decided to do a PhD during medical school it would most definitely have been in a clinical realm that is completely different from that in which I'm training now. (Most likely General Surgery as opposed to Radiology.) But that's just my situation. Others will have different reasons for pursuing graduate education at different times.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[blinknoodle]

I haven't heard about a 9-yr MD/PhD program at Toronto. I think they advertise it as a 7-yr program, but maybe it takes students longer than 3 years to complete their PhD.

 

Many medical schools have combined residency/MSc or PhD (aka Clinician Investigator Programs). For the programs I have looked into, you can use your "elective time" from your specialty towards research, basically shaving 1 year from your residency and using it towards your PhD. Here is a link for programs across Canada: http://citac-accfc.org/en/links.htm.

 

Like Kirsteen, I was more interested in pursuing graduate work during residency. First of all, because I would have matched to my specialty and I could pursue research related to my interests (your clinical interests may change throughout medical school - only ~20% of medical students ultimately match to their first choice from first year medicine). As well, you will be more close to becoming staff at a university and I would want my techniques/knowledge in my area to be current (after an MD/PhD, you still have your residency to pursue). It definitely is a personal decision.. heck, most clinicians wonder if I even need the PhD.

[toffeetree]

Hi there,

 

Just to clarify, some Canadian residency programs provide full salary support during residency for those residents wishing to pursue a graduate degree. If you're keen on seeing some of the benefits check out the UofT Surgical Scientist webpage. That is, say your PhD were to take 4 years after the second year of residency, then during those 4 years you would be paid just as a PGY 3-7 would. There aren't many graduate salary support programs that will offer salaries of that calibre. Additionally, during the years of your graduate work, most programs will relieve you of clinical duties so you are free to pursue your research. Generally, all that is required is participating in some rounds and presenting at the annual research days, the former which you'd probably wish to do to stay plugged into your clinical field and the latter you'd naturally do anyway to showcase your research work.

 

At this point, although I did research prior to entering medical school, I'm happy that I'm pursuing research during residency. Certainly, if I'd decided to do a PhD during medical school it would most definitely have been in a clinical realm that is completely different from that in which I'm training now. (Most likely General Surgery as opposed to Radiology.) But that's just my situation. Others will have different reasons for pursuing graduate education at different times.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

 

wow, that is a pretty amazing option.

[peachy]

My supervisor says that the PhD you obtain in the MD/PhD program is not nearly as of the same quality as you would if you did a PhD on its own, mainly because its just rushed in the 3(or4) years as opposed to the average 5 years that it would take.

This depends entirely on the school at which you are doing the MD/PhD program. Some schools (most US MD/PhD programs, for example) put a limit on the time for the PhD component and allow their students to take some shortcuts. On the other hand, at U of T MD/PhD students during their PhD years are treated exactly like any other grad students in their departments and get a PhD of exactly the same quality. The downside to this is that U of T MD/PhD students very rarely complete the PhD component in less than 5 years.

[peachy]

I haven't heard about a 9-yr MD/PhD program at Toronto. I think they advertise it as a 7-yr program, but maybe it takes students longer than 3 years to complete their PhD.

They do advertise it as a 7 year program. Imho, they shouldn't. There is no truth to that statement. Nobody finishes the MD/PhD program at U of T in 7 years, and many finish it in 9 or more. To finish it in 7 you would have to have significant extenuating circumstances, such as previously having done a masters degree in the same lab at which you are planning to do your PhD, having a very specific and clear project in mind right when you start medical school, and an awful lot of luck in the lab.

[Kirsteen]

It definitely is a personal decision.. heck, most clinicians wonder if I even need the PhD.

Hi there,

 

One of the reasons I'm thinking about a PhD is that it provides extra training that an MSc. doesn't--training that is very handy if you're aiming for an academic career that involves research. The type of training I'm talking about is not only learning more the methodological ropes of your particular brand of research but also, learning how to effectively secure large grants to fuel your work. If you're not really that interested in pursuing research to that degree once you've completed residency then I don't know how useful a PhD might be relative to a MSc., for example, or any other type of graduate work, for that matter.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen