Masters done..back to undergrad

[OneDay]

I am planning on going back for a second undergrad degree this fall (only two years). I have a 3.0 undergrad Bsc, and am just completing a MSc with 4.0. I am rewriting my MCAT's this summer to boost my scores. I am just wondering if anyone else out there has gone back for a second degree. How do Med schools look at these new marks. I am not sure about Toronto, Mac will use ALL my undergrad year GPA. I know Western and Queens look at last two so I should be ok, considering I score high on the MCAT and 3.7+ on the new undegrad years. This really feels like a huge step backwards for me, so I just want to see if anyone else has done this and been successful, and if there are schools that I would have an advantage at. I just want to be sure that I am making the right decision.

[Andie]

I'm wondering the same thing myself.... My undergrad was not so hot GPA~3.2, my master's was thesis based, but ~3.8GPA. I've applied twice with no luck.... I'm starting to think that retaking 2 years of undergrad is my only hope at this point. If there is anyone out there who has done this and succeeded it would be nice to hear your story

[OneDay]

I agree Dr. Happy Hippo! It is good to be able to go on this forum and talk to those in similar situations to us. If med school is what we want, we need to keep working towards it and figure out what we need to improve.

[Elmo]

Edited.......

[Dr. E77]

Hi folks,

 

I so know how you all feel. I have a BSc ~3.69 Gpa and an MSc ~ 3.87 gpa. My mcats nothing stellar but (10's across, R writing sample). Two publications and I work (for this year's application process) at a world renknowned Cardiac research institute here in ottawa. Plenty of clinical experience due to my work and outside too in hospitals. This year was my fourth time applying and unfortunately, no dice. Not even an interview. It sucks because two years ago when I applied, I was waitlisted (good waitlist) at Ottawa. To me doing another 2 years in undergrad is a huge step back. Almost seems like an insult. So I've decided to continue on with my Phd. If medicine will not take me then I will help people in my own albeit indirect way. Unfortunately with so little spots for so many qualified applicants, the envitable happens. Many pre-med applicants are left out in the cold. I'm not sure I can put my life on hold for something that "may happen" a year down the line. Good luck and I hope the best to you all.

 

Kind regards,

 

Dr. E77

[OneDay]

Hi Dr. E77

That's too bad, that your undergrad gpa wasn't 0.01 higher, then you would have gotten interviews to Western. Your MCAT's good, did you apply to Queens? Because from what I read on this forum, if you are a grad student and meet the mcat cutoff, you are almost "guaranteed" an interview. Anyways, good luck with the PhD and with your great clinical experience, I'm sure your application will look great!

[ckim01]

I am on the same boat with everyone. I have an undergrad gpa of 3.5~ and a grad gpa of 3.88 and I didn't get interviewed anywhere.

 

I am wondering if I should re-write the MCAT (is there a limit to the number of times you can rewrite it? Also, can I just release my latest MCAT score or am I required to release all of them? This is sort of embarassing and digressing from this topic.)

 

I am not sure what I can do further to better my chances.. I have descent EC, volunteer and I think an okay gpa. I know my MCAT needs to improve but I wonder if my references aren't good enough.

 

As for this year, I'll be graduating from my M.Sc in about 2 months. I plan to do some light traveling (God knows I've been in school way too long) and I plan to find a job in the research/health field for a year. I figure being a doctor is something I am truly passionate about but I am mature enough to know that there are other ways of fulfilling my life and meeting the needs of what I am supposed to do in this place called earth. I think taking this year off for me will be good to explore other options in the Health field and decide whether or not doing a PhD will be worth my time. In the mean time, I will yet again reapply (but it may be my last).

 

This is just where I stand and I'm glad there are others sitting in my shoe.

 

ckim01

[dnao2]

Hi all,

 

I am in a similar but not exactly the same boat. I have a undergrad GPA about 3.35, I have worked for about 2 years and decided I want to improve my GPA by taking a few full time years (2-3 years) of undergrad. I'll likely be starting this Fall of 2008. Did the MCAT a few years back with not so great results, so definetely will take it again. EC's include volunteering(ed) at two hospitals, work related sports leagues, and the occasional run-for-heart, etc kind of events. Goodluck to everyone here!

[ckim01]

As I mentioned, I am finishing my masters shortly and will have nothing to do for a year. I have to rewrite my mcats - which I hope to ace. Now I spoke with a cardiologist that I work with. He has suggested AGAINST taking a year off - not a good impression of ambition on the admissions comm. Instead, he suggests taking some grad courses to bump the GPA or doing a second course-based masters with a bit of research. Or else, to continue in research. I am going to take a bit of time off to relax, then start in research - hopefully my supervisor will still keep me , do the mcat and work on publishing abstracts + papers. There also is not enough time to go and join a different lab because then I need a reference and not based merely on 5 months. Hope that some of this was helpful to you all - but please lets stay in touch via this bulletin to SUPPORT each other - THERE IS POWER IN NUMBERS!!!

 

Hi Dr. Hippo,

 

Just in regards to what the cardiologist said... I don't necessarily think what he is saying it is completely true. I think taking a year off may do much more to you in terms of life experience and maturity depending on what you choose to do. Whether it be traveling, working for a year or whatever you choose to do. I'm not sure if med schools think that continuous schooling is the best thing out there - sometimes it's a good thing to stop what you are doing and try something different. I just have heard of people doing their undergrad and getting rejected everywhere and taking a year off to travel - reapplying and getting accepted. It's sort of mysterious since nothing on their application really changed. Perhaps it's their changed outlook on life?

 

Just my 2 cents, leave it or take it.

 

ckim

[OneDay]

I agree with Ckim. I wouldn't take what the cardiologist said as being the best advice. I think it's important to take "advice" you get from people who are in the med field with a grain of salt. Yes, he/she is a physician, but do they know anything about the current admissions stats? I've been told many physicians and PhDs that I work with that I should transfer into my PhD instead of doing a second undergrad because they have HEARD of SO many applicants who got in with a PhD. Hearsay is not a valid source of information. Seeing how many PhDs were turned down this year on this forum, really made me think twice and evaluate my application to see where I'm going wrong. And from the posts I got on this thread from premeders (who really do know the current admission criteria) confirmed that I was doing the right thing by doing a second undergrad degree. If one's application is unsuccessful this round, they need to really think carefully as to which part of the application needs to be improved. To take a year off and travel would be a good idea, if you think your application is already really great. But others who can improve certain aspects of their application (ie. MCAT's, GPA, work experience etc), should look at doing that while waiting for the next application cycle. For me, I know I have great research experience and publications. So to do a PhD would not help my application any further. Improving my undergrad GPA will definitely help my application at least with getting interviews. On a last note, taking grad courses in your year off will not really help your application either, it wouldn't count towards your GPA calculation and it's not part of the grad degree (I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure...) Hey Ckim, what are you planning on doing? PhD?

[ckim01]

Hey OneDay,

 

I think I am going to take this year off to work - hopefully a descent real job. Maybe I can find a career somewhere in the health field in research (Health Canada, MARS, research hospital, etc). This will give me an idea as to whether or not I want to keep trying for med school, do my phD or pursue something else.

 

I know I need time away from school and get actual work/life experience. I felt the need to keep going with life but I think I need to take time away and try to see it from a different perspective. Many may see it as a year of waste but who knows, it's something different and may shed light on what to do with my life.

 

I might retake that bloody MCAT though.

 

What is your second undergrad going to be like? How many years/what degree?

[Dr. E77]

Hey all,

 

In all this talk on "what will you be doing next year" etc..I've looked into Phd programs that more are more clinically based. Things like clinical psychology, counselling etc.. Just because you're not a medical doctor doesn't mean you can't interact with patients on a one on one basis. I know they offer in Toronto smoking cessation counselling courses which are credited. That would mean if you decide to do a Phd, there will be some clinical component in your studies. Just food for thought I mean it's no medicine, but our goal ultimately is to help people right?

 

Kind regards,

 

Dr. E77

[ckim01]

Hey all,

 

In all this talk on "what will you be doing next year" etc..I've looked into Phd programs that more are more clinically based. Things like clinical psychology, counselling etc.. Just because you're not a medical doctor doesn't mean you can't interact with patients on a one on one basis. I know they offer in Toronto smoking cessation counselling courses which are credited. That would mean if you decide to do a Phd, there will be some clinical component in your studies. Just food for thought I mean it's no medicine, but our goal ultimately is to help people right?

 

Kind regards,

 

Dr. E77

 

Hey Dr.E77,

 

Do you know of any PhD opportunities where you can work in a hospital setting lab (one that is tied to university of toronto of some sort?) where you can maybe work with a clinician scientist or anything like that?

 

I feel the same way as you, I don't think being an MD is the only way to achieve what I ultimately want with my life. So in exchange, I'd like to find something that is just as challenging and somewhat patient oriented.

 

ckim01

[Dr. E77]

Hey Dr.E77,

 

Do you know of any PhD opportunities where you can work in a hospital setting lab (one that is tied to university of toronto of some sort?) where you can maybe work with a clinician scientist or anything like that?

 

I feel the same way as you, I don't think being an MD is the only way to achieve what I ultimately want with my life. So in exchange, I'd like to find something that is just as challenging and somewhat patient oriented.

 

ckim01

 

Hi Ckim01,

 

Hmmm not too sure about Toronto. But maybe what you can do is go to the UofT faculty of graduate studies and look at programs that may interest you and see the profiles of the professors there. Since UofT is a research based university and has a teaching hospital for med/graduate students, I'm sure you'll be able to find a potential supervisor who's research is widely based in the hospital. I would look into CAMH website also. It has great tools for health care professionals and ways to gain clinical skills (counselling etc) without going through med school.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Kind regards,

 

Dr. E77

[excited]

Hey Dr.E77,

 

Do you know of any PhD opportunities where you can work in a hospital setting lab (one that is tied to university of toronto of some sort?) where you can maybe work with a clinician scientist or anything like that?

 

I feel the same way as you, I don't think being an MD is the only way to achieve what I ultimately want with my life. So in exchange, I'd like to find something that is just as challenging and somewhat patient oriented.

 

ckim01

 

 

there are lots of clinician scientists at UofT. You just have to browse through the webpages of the departments that interest you, and look for profs that are MDs (or MD PHD). I am a grad student with a clinician scientist at UofT, and I can tell you.. it is NOT the best choice if you want to focus your life on research in the future because a MD supervisor will have no time for you or your project. This is the case for myself and for many people that I know of.

 

And working in a hospital setting lab is bad. You are likely going to be isolated. Minimal interaction with other labs and students. I would much prefer working in a lab where I'm surrounded by others (i.e. non hospital setting).

 

That's just my opinion though.

 

ps: and about rewriting the MCAT, I think UofT doesn't care so much about it. I got an interview with a score <30..

I heard writing too many times is actually not good too..

[ckim01]

there are lots of clinician scientists at UofT. You just have to browse through the webpages of the departments that interest you, and look for profs that are MDs (or MD PHD). I am a grad student with a clinician scientist at UofT, and I can tell you.. it is NOT the best choice if you want to focus your life on research in the future because a MD supervisor will have no time for you or your project. This is the case for myself and for many people that I know of.

 

And working in a hospital setting lab is bad. You are likely going to be isolated. Minimal interaction with other labs and students. I would much prefer working in a lab where I'm surrounded by others (i.e. non hospital setting).

 

That's just my opinion though.

 

ps: and about rewriting the MCAT, I think UofT doesn't care so much about it. I got an interview with a score <30..

I heard writing too many times is actually not good too..

 

Hey excited,

 

Thanks for your input. You raise very valid points that I did not think much about previously. If you don't mind me asking, what sort of research do you or other grad students who work in a hospital setting based do?

 

I thought it would give you better exposure in the hospital setting and an opportunity to get a better look at what clinician scientists do - and a great way to network. Of course my primary goal would be to find a PhD position where I can work on a clinical setting as to a laboratory setting.

 

Thanks.

[Jinny]

Hey excited,

 

Thanks for your input. You raise very valid points that I did not think much about previously. If you don't mind me asking, what sort of research do you or other grad students who work in a hospital setting based do?

 

I thought it would give you better exposure in the hospital setting and an opportunity to get a better look at what clinician scientists do - and a great way to network. Of course my primary goal would be to find a PhD position where I can work on a clinical setting as to a laboratory setting.

 

Thanks.

 

Hey CKim,

I actually did my Masters with a clinician scientist in a hospital based lab and staying one more year to finish up my project. I personally enjoyed working in a hospital setting lab although as excited pointed out I didn't have much interaction with my supervisor because he was just too busy with his clinical work..

 

But in terms of interacting with researchers, I think it depends on which lab you are working in .. I didn't get to know/ interact with many students but I still got to know many PI/ co-PIs, research fellows/ lab techs in different research fields and I learned a great deal about the field of medical research in general.. so, I am not really against working in a hospital setting lab but if you are particularly looking for an opportunity to learn more about clinical side then i suggest looking into clinical research rather than basic science research...

 

I might be wrong but I think that's what Im gonna do if I don't get in this year..

[excited]

Hey excited,

 

Thanks for your input. You raise very valid points that I did not think much about previously. If you don't mind me asking, what sort of research do you or other grad students who work in a hospital setting based do?

 

I thought it would give you better exposure in the hospital setting and an opportunity to get a better look at what clinician scientists do - and a great way to network. Of course my primary goal would be to find a PhD position where I can work on a clinical setting as to a laboratory setting.

 

Thanks.

 

I do basic research, and most students do basic research too in my lab. However, there are staffs and students that are involved with clinical and/or translational research. But I find that for students in particular, it really depends on your background. For those coming into graduate studies from an undergrad or basic science background, they are just naturally lured into basic research. For grad students with an MD background though, I find that they have a lot more opportunities because of their knowledge and 'network', and hence are involved in all basic/translational/clinical research.

 

I agree with you though. If you want to know what clinician scientists do, I think having a clinician scientist as a supervisor helps . I got an insight into that and it's really stimulating and makes me want to become one too. But there's just always the downside to things (i.e. MDs are too busy for you).

 

If you want to do clinical research, do it at a hospital with a MD supervisor. However if you're interested in basic research, I would imagine it's much better doing it outside the hospital setting with a PhD supervisor.

[Dr. E77]

I do basic research, and most students do basic research too in my lab. However, there are staffs and students that are involved with clinical and/or translational research. But I find that for students in particular, it really depends on your background. For those coming into graduate studies from an undergrad or basic science background, they are just naturally lured into basic research. For grad students with an MD background though, I find that they have a lot more opportunities because of their knowledge and 'network', and hence are involved in all basic/translational/clinical research.

 

I agree with you though. If you want to know what clinician scientists do, I think having a clinician scientist as a supervisor helps . I got an insight into that and it's really stimulating and makes me want to become one too. But there's just always the downside to things (i.e. MDs are too busy for you).

 

If you want to do clinical research, do it at a hospital with a MD supervisor. However if you're interested in basic research, I would imagine it's much better doing it outside the hospital setting with a PhD supervisor.

 

Hi all,

 

I did my MSc and it could be classified as basic research. I learnt a lot and even published. However, I found (friends that I talk to who are Phd graduates) that many Phd students (particularly in basic research) that graduate often are stuck with finding a job afterwards. For example people with such high qualifications such as a Phd would need to be paid more with a starting salary compared to those with a bachelors or a masters. Hence many phd graduates are stuck having to either do purely academia work (ie work in a university) or in the private sector (two of which are great options btw). A government job would be difficult to get into as to the previous reasons I've mentioned. So if research is really what you want to do apart from medicine, make sure it will play dividens afterwards (ie with a good paying job). I think (for me anyway), clinical/rehabilitation/intervention research (affiliated with major hospitals) is so appealing, particularly in the health care setting; there will always be a need for them. I know my future supervisor's(not an MD) phd studnents are working pretty much full-time hours (which they are paid for) running projects (Rehabilitation/Intervention programs) out of the hospital I work at. Remember medicine is evidenced based and many medical doctors look into literature (that researchers discover/help develop) to updated their skills in what meds to prescribe, what test to use etc... Anyway I'm handing in my Phd application as we speak. Wish me luck!

 

Kind regards,

 

Dr. E77

[Deanis]

Hi folks,

 

I so know how you all feel. I have a BSc ~3.69 Gpa and an MSc ~ 3.87 gpa. My mcats nothing stellar but (10's across, R writing sample). Two publications and I work (for this year's application process) at a world renknowned Cardiac research institute here in ottawa. Plenty of clinical experience due to my work and outside too in hospitals. This year was my fourth time applying and unfortunately, no dice. Not even an interview. It sucks because two years ago when I applied, I was waitlisted (good waitlist) at Ottawa. To me doing another 2 years in undergrad is a huge step back. Almost seems like an insult. So I've decided to continue on with my Phd. If medicine will not take me then I will help people in my own albeit indirect way. Unfortunately with so little spots for so many qualified applicants, the envitable happens. Many pre-med applicants are left out in the cold. I'm not sure I can put my life on hold for something that "may happen" a year down the line. Good luck and I hope the best to you all.

 

Kind regards,

 

Dr. E77

 

 

Well, this IS discouraging (I have a UGPA of 3.76, M.Sc. GPA of 3.7ish, writing the MCAT in July). I know it's hard to get into med school in Canada, but this isi disheartening. I guess I'm going to have to apply to the US and take on the ridiculous debt that somes with that path (the idea of a PhD is not at all appealing to me).

 

Can anyone tell me if this is normal? Dr. E77 has pretty decent stats, are they simply not good enough? As far as I know they seem pretty much average for most Canadian schools. 4X with only one interview! Man, I'm sorry (and scared!) to hear that Dr. E77.

 

Deanis

[Dr. E77]

Well, this IS discouraging (I have a UGPA of 3.76, M.Sc. GPA of 3.7ish, writing the MCAT in July). I know it's hard to get into med school in Canada, but this isi disheartening. I guess I'm going to have to apply to the US and take on the ridiculous debt that somes with that path (the idea of a PhD is not at all appealing to me).

 

Can anyone tell me if this is normal? Dr. E77 has pretty decent stats, are they simply not good enough? As far as I know they seem pretty much average for most Canadian schools. 4X with only one interview! Man, I'm sorry (and scared!) to hear that Dr. E77.

 

Deanis

 

Hi Deanis,

 

thanks for your kind words. Unfortunately, with so many qualified applicants, they're not enough spots to accomodate the growing demand. It's sad because my significant other who is finishing off her MD says that there are not enough pre-ceptors for clerks to be taught the things they need to be become a competent intern. So there is a bottleneck effect at two ends of 2 very important spots in the medical field: 1) at the begining where pre-meders try to compete for spots in medical school and 2) just before you finish your degree where you are trying to find Dr.'s who will take you in for electives that go towards your residency. So clearly there's needs to be an overhaul of the system. Also, Deanis, you'll never know until you try. My only advice is that there is no magical formula to get into medical school. If you have the stats to compete, why not try a hand and see if you get lucky. good luck!

 

Kind regards,

 

Dr. E77

[A-Stark]

To provide a more optimistic story, I have similar stats to you Deanis, and I just got into Dal, had my Queen's interview last week, and a Mac interview tomorrow. It's not over til it's over, as ever.

[ckim01]

To provide a more optimistic story, I have similar stats to you Deanis, and I just got into Dal, had my Queen's interview last week, and a Mac interview tomorrow. It's not over til it's over, as ever.

 

Hey, A-Stark.

 

Would you mind telling us what you thought was different in your apps from previous years? It seems like those who get interviews from one place are likely to get multiple interviews.

 

Thanks.