Aussie international tuition

[Guest RunMD]

Hello!

Do any USYD students out there know what the process of becoming a permanent resident in AUS? Does this affect your tuition fees? Have any students become permanent residents after starting as an international student?

Thanks!

[Guest redshifteffect]

Couple of points though!

 

If you can get a PR DO IT!! You would honestly be a fool not to, it's never been easier and I'll point out a few "benefits"

 

1) Australia is currently voted the number one country to live in...it has superseeded Canada so you never know when an Aussie PR will come in handy.

 

2) You will be eligible for HECS fees which means you can pay local fees, or you can differ your fee payment and let the government do the job for you. You will only have to pay them 2% of ur salary IF you work in Australia

 

3) You will be eligible for youth allowance after 2 years (that's the current legislation but could be subject to change) which means upto $400 per forthnight depending on your claims.

[Guest driedcaribou]

I am pretty sure if you become a PR you void your International Student status....

 

They accept you because they want your money as an International Student.

 

I could be wrong though but I think I read it on their website.

 

They only have so many gov't funded positions.

[Guest coastal79]

From what I've read on various sites/message boards, if you become an Aussie citizen, and want to pay Aussie tuition, you give up your International spot and have to hope that someone in your class who is an Aussie citizen quits. If this doesn't happen you're screwed. If it works out you're set financially.

[Guest redshifteffect]

Driedcaribou,

 

Yes they do tell u that you lose your international student status, but that doesn't mean you won't get in as a local student. If you have already been attending their school for more than 1 year than you have a very high odds of being able to stay.

 

That is what has happened with a lot of the Malaysian students that are attending my medical school.

[Guest coastal79]

Hey, I was just wondering how many Australians dropped out of your class?

 

If I remember correctly, you are in a high school entry program. I would guess that the drop out situation would be very different between programs such as yours, and the graduate entry programs at USYD, Flinders, etc. All students in graduate entry programs have a degree, and many of them have had previous careers. The odds of them deciding that they don't want to become a doctor after all are much slimmer than the odds of a 19 year old, a year or two out of high school, deciding medicine isn't for them. This isn't meant as a slight against high school entry programs, which are traditional in Australia (although there is a reason graduate entry programs are springing up...).

 

Personally, if all doesn't end well this year in Canada, I'll be applying down-under, and I would love to get citizenship and pay cheaper tuition. I would, however, caution people against banking on being able to go that route. Face up to the financial realities of paying International tuition, and look at getting Australian citizenship as a possilbe bonus, otherwise you could be in a whole pile of debt that you weren't counting on.

[Guest c4rd14c]

I've asked a few of the schools about their policy on this.

They highly discourage you applying as an international student and then attempting to gain permanent resident status while in the school. I'm sure that many international students have tried this in the past and they have adapted their policies to make this exceedingly difficult (ie. losing your spot in the class).

 

The reason is simple, the schools are apparently mandated by the government to allocate so many spots for HECs, international students and sponsored positions. If they screw up their quotas I was told their is some sort of a penalty to the school (what that would be I don't know). In addition this represents a loss of income to the school. Remember education is a business as well these days.

 

The immigration process is based on points. So if you don't have any relatives in Australia or are not skilled in a profession (meaning real world job experience for a few years) than the immigration process itself may be a hurdle.

 

I've resigned myself to the fact that this is not a likely route to pursue. The tuition is still less expensive than what it is in the US and most Carribean schools so face the reality that we are just going to have to pay our dues.

[Guest redshifteffect]

I will have to agree with you on the fact that more people are likely to drop out of an undergraduate program. The "drop out" rate here isnt' that high, there were only about two people who dropped out or transfered schools. I guess the point I'm trying to make was that the failure rate among the year before me was much higher than the drop out rate. It was a particularly bad year with about 15% failure. (12 out of 80 failed).

 

I'm not sure if you have read any of the AMC reviews, but a lot of people with the AMC are pushing for more undergraduate medical schools. The reason that this is the case, is if post grad. schools become the norm. than aussie docs will be 50 by the time they are qualified surgeons! Which is something no one wants. Also the quality of education is really good here, as I'm sure none of you are disputing.

 

Finally look guys you can ask all the people you want. Yes you may lose your spot, but then you can reapply to another school, and as an Australian student you have a much better chance of getting into a med. school than you would have had in Canada/US. The point i'm trying to make is of course they will discourage you from applying for your PR/Citizenship because they want your money! But I have seen how many Malaysians here (4 that I know about) have gotten their PRs are paying next to nothing (courtesy of HECS) and are enjoying themselves here. The point I'm trying to make is that it is possible (at least here in Tassie, I don't know the situation on the mainland). But you have to be clever to do so. Best thing is if you've made up your mind to go and want to pay international fees that's fine, but once you get there try and find out from non-university sources what the deal is, you may be pleasantly surprised.

 

Finally one last thing is that if you do want to apply for your PR and you don't want to take the chance of losing your position the best thing to do is to do it before you start. You will get more points if you have some job specific training, and if you're in the computer related field. Though it's still not that impossible to get your PR. Your best bet is to ask the medical schools here what you would have to do to get in as an Aussie but with a degree from overseas.

[Guest coastal79]

Good point about the failure rate redshift. I had only considered those who just drop out by choice, not those who are forced out because they can't hack it.

[Guest redshifteffect]

I doubt that the failure rate for the year previous to mine is anything but a fluke. No year has ever had that amont of failures. Partly it's due to the new course impletmented courtesy of the the AMC. The new course is heavily evidence based and basically was a real challenge to everyone including the lecturers. I think they've ironed out most of the details now so people shouldn't find it as difficult.

 

Point is though that these people aren't "Kicked" out ...as I'm sure you know once ur in med they don't want to get rid of you, same applies for international students; so they merely have to repeat the year.

 

I'm pretty sure same thing happens @ U of Queensland...two people in my class are transfers from there (and U of Q) is a post grad school. Anyway just so you know Post grad schools here aren't considered top notch..here is the ranking 1) Melbourne 2) Monash 3)Tassie....all three are undergrad schools...

[Guest coastal79]

If the vast vast majority of the individuals currently in the Australian medical profession are the products of undergraduate medical schools, and graduate entry has only been around since the mid-90's, it isn't to surprising that undergraduate medical schools are ranked at the top (although Melbourne has both grad and undergrad). I read a survey about a month ago, conducted by a group of researchers from some Australian school, sorry can't remember the name, which compared performance of those trained in undergraduate programs and those in graduate entry programs. They surveyed supervisors in Australian hospitals and asked them to comment on recently certified physicians in a number of categories such as communication skills, ability to handle stress, basic science knowledge etc. The only area in which the products of undergraduate programs were ranked higher than those of graduate entry programs was in basic science knowledge (which isn't surprising). I would expect that as more physicians who are the products of PBL based grad-ent programs enter the workforce, perceptions of "top" schools will change dramatically.

 

Not trying to be antagonistic, just sharing an prognostication, which may or may not end up being true. I have boundless respect for someone who knows they want to be a doctor at 18 ,like yourself, and who is willing to go after it.

[Guest redshifteffect]

No offense taken, and I hope you won't take any offense to anything I post either.

 

1) Aren't the basic sciences really important in terms of treatment of a patient? If they aren't then just about anybody with good communication skills could make a proficient doctor.

 

2) If you cram a 6 year program into 4 years, I'm sure there are a lot of clinical things that are left out. Even though we're doing basic sciences here for 2 years, we have quite a bit of clinical exposure here even in our first 2 years. That's partly why a lot of people here aren't fans of the 4 year programs. There are tonnes of stats here that say that 4 year doctors have a lot more problems than 6 year ones when it comes to adjustment in the work force. I also first hand that residency training programs still give preference to undergrads as compared to posties. However your point that the course content in the 4 year programs hasn't been ironed out is a valid one...in the next couple of years which ones will be better? It's hard to say.

 

You could be right on the communication skills issue because undergraduate doctors would have a lot less practical experience, but in our med class we had a massive debate about the same topic. I will find out the literature but there are quite a few good articles stating that in some ways undergraduate doctors do outrank their mature age counterparts.

 

That being said in my class there are a couple of mature age students that definately wouldn't outrank any undergrad students in terms of communication skills.

 

Also I guess if you've had more time to decide that you want to do medicine, and the clock is running out then you will be more committed. However due to the rigourous selction process applied here for the undergrads as opposed to the mature agers I would have to say that a high percentage of the undergrads are some of the most articulate people I've ever met. Quite a few could communicate circles around the registrars and many have been approached by them in terms of how to do effective presentations...

 

Just my 2 cents for whatever that's worth.

 

Also I found out some information for you costal79. I asked some of the Malaysian students today that have gotten a PR here and are now local students. They told me that the process was quite simple. They got their PR and then applied for a spot as locals...and they got in without much hitch.

 

But this is in Tassie, and as you said it might be easier here to do that sort of thing. But my point is still valid with an aussie PR your chance of staying here becomes a reality and u will be guaranteed an internship. I doubt even the tuition decrease is better than that.

[Guest redshifteffect]

Actually the main problem with the post graduate schools isn't their students...many of them are quite capable docs. The problem is with their cirriculum. They are definately not upto scratch and there is not doubt at all the docs here prefer 6 year MBBS docs over the 4 years ones. Just ask anyone and they will tell you. The thing about Melbourne is that even though it has both undergrad and postgrad they are still 6 year degrees no matter how you get in.

 

I find it very hard to believe that they can trim down a 6 year program into a four year course and say that the graduates from this school are "superior" to the ones from the 6 year course.

 

Finally this is subjective and difficult to prove but there is some validty to it:

 

I honestly find that the school leavers here are a completely different crowd to the Mature age students....You may think that they are inept at communication or even dealing with patients, but what I have seen is quite the opposite. In fact the mature age students here are always asking the school leavers for help - Even in terms of dealing with patients! The thing that you have to remember is the school leavers here are screened exactly the same way as the ones in North America. Granted they do not have the MCAT but they have to sit the UMAT which is the same idea. They are also at the top of their class, and most of them have communication skills that even surpass some of the registrars.

 

Its fine if you think the North American system of selecting Post graduate students is better - but the point here is that many of the post graduate students ONLY apply to post graduate entry schools BECAUSE they couldn't get in as undergrads.

 

I hope you aren't offended by anything I've said....just trying to have a stimulating debate.