First NSERC - Depressed and Frustrated

[ysk1]

I'm going into 3rd year this September.

When I first found out that I got an NSERC, I was excited. But I never knew what was awaiting me in the summer. My current experience is a nightmare. I hate every minute of it. The projects are lame, my PI never comes in the lab. Instead I was assigned to three supervisors - a PhD, a grad student, and a lab staff.

The PhD stays in the lab only %40 of the whole time I'm in the lab. I feel threatened and uncomfortable when I ask him something. He makes it difficult for me to ask him anything freely. He also seems to expect me to understand what he says at first try and gives me weird and scary look if I tell him that I have no idea what he said and ask him questions on what I didn't understand.

The grad student is okay, but very far from an ideal mentor.

The lab staff is very indifferent and unhelpful. When I ask him something, his explanations are vague and unhelpful so now I don't bother asking him. Also, just like the PhD, he threatens me or makes me feel dumb if I ask him some basic questions whose answers it's naturally for me to not know as a starter. I don't feel he is really one of my supervisors (the same goes for the PhD).

I'm miserable and depressed, and scared of waking up in the morning.

I'm starting to regret my decision to do NSERC in this lab; I should've chosen a better lab where PI's and supervisors were not of this low quality.

 

Sigh............................ If I could only go back in time to reject the NSERC or change the lab..........

[daryn]

Just want to say I'm sorry.

 

I've gone through it (not summer NSERC though). Bad supervisor. Stupid projects (coming from stupid ideas of said supervisor). Unhelpful people.

 

Try as hard as you can. Don't give up. When things get really really bad, then talk to the PI (tactfully of course).

 

But don't stop asking questions (of course don't ask really really stupid ones - you know what I mean) because you will get into bigger trouble if you don't ask and you end up screwing up your project.

[KennethToronto]

You will have to make the best of it: think of it as a difficult learning experience. I can understand your situation as I've been in some less than ideal lab environments (and even some additional factors that made it worse).

 

I think what will help you is working on being more independent and self-directed. It's nice if the PI or post-doc is willing to go out of their way to help you, but many times they're busy with their own projects so it's up to you to start doing the legwork - reading the review articles, doing the research, and seeking more helpful individuals (whether they're in your lab or even in neighbouring labs) for help when you're really stuck and the papers aren't helping.

[daryn]

You will have to make the best of it: think of it as a difficult learning experience. I can understand your situation as I've been in some less than ideal lab environments (and even some additional factors that made it worse).

 

I think what will help you is working on being more independent and self-directed. It's nice if the PI or post-doc is willing to go out of their way to help you, but many times they're busy with their own projects so it's up to you to start doing the legwork - reading the review articles, doing the research, and seeking more helpful individuals (whether they're in your lab or even in neighbouring labs) for help when you're really stuck and the papers aren't helping.

 

I agree. You will come out having learned so much - both the lab techniques and also just how to deal with people.

 

Grad school taught me a ton of things. One of my supervisors is incredibly ... out of the picture (without going into greater detail) but because of that I have grown to rely on myself.

[Vallinar]

i hear you... for me it was a lil different... the group and the supervisor was good but i picked the wrong project for me.... i did organic synthesis, and when i realzied how bad the chemicals were for me it was too late to change it... so i spent the next 16 weeks fearfully dealing with the harmful chemicals i hated every minute of it...

 

but i battled through (didn't do the best job tho) and i was able to put it on my sketch and i'm sure it helped get at least one of my interviews

[BlackJack]

Oh yes, the NSERC.

 

I remember having the same experience as you. I thought I'd learn a bunch of stuff and make some connections. In reality, the lab was a disaster. A total clusterf#ck.

 

What's worse is that although I succeeded in modifying an experiment that nobody else had success with, I was not included on any publications. My work went completely uncredited. Apparently my supervisor was notorious for not crediting people for their work - too bad I found that out later rather than sooner.

 

So here's my advice to you:

 

1. DON'T BE A DOORMAT. I know as a premed its hard to be assertive, because you're afraid of what kind of connections one has with medical admissions faculty. You don't want to stand up for yourself against the rude phD student because his dad may be the dean of admissions for x med school. I say so what! If the PhD student is being a prick, stand up for yourself. What do you have to lose? If you do your work, you're going to get paid either way. And you're not going to get a letter of reference from the rude PhD student or any of the rude lab monkeys, so who cares what they think? If anything, the PhD student is angry because he knows you want to go into medicine and he just couldn't hack it.

 

2. TALK TO YOUR SUPERVISOR ASAP TO DISCUSS THE TERMS OF PUBLICATION. Be all business. If you end up making a new discovery, or if you contribute substantially to an existing project, will you get authorship? You need to get DEFINITIVE terms for publication. If publication is possible, then you have motivation to work hard and get results. If you are just another lab-monkey, just do what you're expected to do and go home at a reasonable time every day - don't break your back over it. Same goes if the project is too broad or implausible (or as you say, lame).

 

 

Don't let anyone bully you around. Being a doormat is the worst thing one can be.

[MedPen]

I am really sorry to hear that people are having bad experiences but at the same time, I am relieved.

 

I feel the same way as the first poster: frustrated and upset. The grad student who I am working with shows me something once, provides no theory or useful advice and then treats me like an idiot if I don't get it right.

 

I hate that but I am not going down without a fight! I will stand up for myself and make it clear that I am not the idiot he perceives me to be.

[Meds1T1]

I had an almost identical experience, except instead of a summer NSERC project it was my fourth year honours thesis! It was a horrible stupid project, with an absent supervisor and an evil grad student who belittled me and took advantage of me to use the equipment because her research as a grad student was so much more important than mine. Luckily there were a few nice grad students also in the lab who helped me tremendously.

Anyways, nice to know I'm not the only one, and the experience certainly does make you a stronger person.

Good luck getting through it, OP!

[3.14159265...]

Sorry to hear that.

 

What I can say though is that it's your project. Don't be shy, they have to give you resources. They shouldn't have accepted a student if they weren't going to.

[In_Valid]

I'm going into 3rd year this September.

When I first found out that I got an NSERC, I was excited. But I never knew what was awaiting me in the summer. My current experience is a nightmare. I hate every minute of it. The projects are lame, my PI never comes in the lab. Instead I was assigned to three supervisors - a PhD, a grad student, and a lab staff.

The PhD stays in the lab only %40 of the whole time I'm in the lab. I feel threatened and uncomfortable when I ask him something. He makes it difficult for me to ask him anything freely. He also seems to expect me to understand what he says at first try and gives me weird and scary look if I tell him that I have no idea what he said and ask him questions on what I didn't understand.

The grad student is okay, but very far from an ideal mentor.

The lab staff is very indifferent and unhelpful. When I ask him something, his explanations are vague and unhelpful so now I don't bother asking him. Also, just like the PhD, he threatens me or makes me feel dumb if I ask him some basic questions whose answers it's naturally for me to not know as a starter. I don't feel he is really one of my supervisors (the same goes for the PhD).

I'm miserable and depressed, and scared of waking up in the morning.

I'm starting to regret my decision to do NSERC in this lab; I should've chosen a better lab where PI's and supervisors were not of this low quality.

 

Sigh............................ If I could only go back in time to reject the NSERC or change the lab..........

 

I think a lot of people go into a summer research project with this idea that research will be fun and interesting. Research, however, is 99% of the time boring and tedious. I've worked in labs for 5 summers and every time it has been the same way.

 

People have to understand also that you are only working for 4 months. They will not give you the best projects because you will not have enough time for it.

 

NSERCs are really not about accomplishing any huge. Its mainly about giving undergraduate students an oppurtunity to learn basic laboratory and research skills.

[Gavanshir]

haha, welcome to research!

 

Your experience is very typical. I dont think you should focus on the attitudes of the people around you in the lab, what matters most is how YOU handle yourself and deal with everything. You'll soon earn people's respect (or maybe not) and carry yourself with dignity to the micropipetter rack

 

I on the other hand would love to be in a lab where the PI isn't there that often, that way I could study for the MCAT all day. But that's not the case, this PI likes to work on the bench next to us..

[Alastriss]

I can relate - I got hounded on by my PI because I followed the directions of a grad student that were wrong- and the worst part is my partner who was more in the wrong than I was got off scott free.

 

The only thing I can suggest for you to do is try to take the time to read through the papers that your lab has published. It would give you a great understanding of the theoretical background, but more importantly pay attention to the materials and methods of papers produced by your lab. Directions there are meant to be clear enough to be replicated. Since they were done by your lab you might find yourself doing them quite frequently and it helped me because I had to ask less basic questions and became more independent.

 

The more you produce results independently and show a certain type of knowledgeable curiousity by asking insightful questions, the more respect you will gain.

 

Don't be discouraged, it is your first exposure to research.

If anything, you will be able to talk about how this experience has developed self directed learning, dealing with a problem, or having a good reason why scientific research is not for you. Should be a worthwhile experience regardless, good luck!

[Guest soaring_eagle]

ysk1 - i've been in plently of situations where I've been belittled or harassed for doing something but took the **** and remembered the reason I was doing it. NSERC will look good on your application, so think of that daily. it sucks that there are people around you who treat you terribly, but trust me, you will only grow stronger from it. And even in the medical field, you'll have to take a lot of ****.

 

One of my jobs (not research, although I'm doing research now), I was harassed daily and forced to do things beyond my job description - even to the point of cleaning toilets. I stayed because I needed the money sooo badly. Just gotta do these things sometimes, as much as it sucks.

 

good luck, keep your head high.

[ysk1]

Thanks for all the posts! It's nice to know I'm not the only one.

But I'm thinking it's not worth it to do NSERC in this lab and it would be better to take courses this summer instead and do NSERC next year in a better lab.

 

How bad would it be to quit when you're 3 weeks into NSERC?

The people in the lab will probably get mad, but I really hate the lab, supervisors, and my project...

I hate burning bridges. Is there a way to quit without doing so?

[Jixe]

Thanks for all the posts! It's nice to know I'm not the only one.

But I'm thinking it's not worth it to do NSERC in this lab and it would be better to take courses this summer instead and do NSERC next year in a better lab.

 

How bad would it be to quit when you're 3 weeks into NSERC?

The people in the lab will probably get mad, but I really hate the lab, supervisors, and my project...

 

Thinking back, I wish I had quit an NSERC position I held. My PI informed me that it would look extremely bad upon the institution, and thought it'd be best that I simply took "time off." Long story short, I skipped about a month of work and still got paid. I was still productive the three months that I was there, but I just didn't enjoy the atmosphere. I had some other things going on that summer, but more importantly, I just felt that my labmates were a tad TOO laid back. (This coming from a huge party-goer). It was partly my fault though because I was having doubts from the get-go and didn't speak up until one month into the term.

 

I love research. I really enjoy putting my full attention and effort into my work, but I really need the same sort of enthusiasm from my labmates. I've been afraid to go back ever since, and is partly the reason why I didn't pursue a (research-based) Master's after being rejected from medical school. HELLO SECOND GAP YEAR!

[luc_cervelo]

Thanks for all the posts! It's nice to know I'm not the only one.

But I'm thinking it's not worth it to do NSERC in this lab and it would be better to take courses this summer instead and do NSERC next year in a better lab.

 

How bad would it be to quit when you're 3 weeks into NSERC?

The people in the lab will probably get mad, but I really hate the lab, supervisors, and my project...

I hate burning bridges. Is there a way to quit without doing so?

 

Golly, it seems like we all know the feeling. Research by itself is extremely frustrating and tedious. This is my second summer doing it, in different labs - and believe me, there is no change about the unpleasant aspects of research. IMO, we (as student researchers) should try to show initiative, but we should not get bogged down in being perfect. Most lab projects given to us are unlikely to succeed; profs are notorious for giving obscure projects to us. We fail most of the time!!!

 

Grad students are often unhelpful - but not on purpose! They just have other things on the go, and face it, we are all newbies in the lab when we are compared to them. It's frustrating for them to have to explain something they find really simple.

 

If you can, corner your prof/supervisor, and ask a whackload of questions. Show that you're interested in that stuff, and try to ask some theoretical questions, too. Then get into the technical questions, such as "How do I do *blank*?" They'll know that you're still feeling uncertain. This could work in your favour because they have magical powers to recruit more help for you. Actually, they will pay more attention to you this way.

 

Please don't quit - it doesn't look good, and it probably won't feel good, either. After all, you will have some good experiences this summer. There are always other things to do with your lab mates: this might help your relationship to them. (Instead of being just a new kid in the lab, you'll be a new kid who is interesting and fun and amazingly cool. They will be more willing to talk and help you out. At least, it worked for me.)

 

So the only class you should be taking is Clubbing 101. Either as instructor or student.

[MedPen]

The more you produce results independently and show a certain type of knowledgeable curiousity by asking insightful questions, the more respect you will gain.

 

Don't be discouraged, it is your first exposure to research. !

 

I totally agree with you in theory. In practice, however, independently producing results is not so easy when you do not have full control of the direction of your research. It is extremely hard to have control when it is a project that depends on someone else or alternatively, when they don't provide you with enough information to be able to plan ahead.

 

I think it is extremely important to remember that it is our first exposure to research. However, my PI had 2 extremes: he either forgets I'm an undergrad and expects magic from me or remembers I'm an undergrad and doesn't want me doing anything, much less magic. Consequently, I have come to the conclusion that when it comes to supervising, the man is bipolar and needs help!

[GatewayMD]

It seems like you have a very external locus of control...

 

For instance you say when you ask a question your sup. makes you feel dumb = someone else is in control of your emotions.

 

Anyways I can't say **** because the research team I work with is awesome...I guess a lesson for future people interested in summer research is to interview your supervisor just like they would interview you.

 

If you feel the summer is becoming a loss why you take night classes? I'm doing summer school + mcat prep during my nserc....

[Zuckman]

This reminds me of my NSERC experience.

 

Prof was nonexistent, coworkers were not too cool, I felt the project was a total waste of my time and wasn't going to help anyone. However, I took it as a learning experience and weathered the storm. You have to remember, there may be times in residency where a similar situation will happen. You're going to have to know how to deal with it.

 

My horrible research experiences motivated me even more to start medicine.

 

One thing I would do differently is choose my supervisor more carefully. Look for warning signs and red flags. I didn't catch on fast enough. With the first conversation he seemed like an okay guy. Within a few more conversations I realized that he had a temper control problem and a stress control problem (at this point I should've left and found someone else). He would walk up and down the hallways like a zombie. His mind was so preoccupied with grants and not losing his lab. If I said 'good morning', he would totally ignore me! It was evident that he hated his job, and he wished he went into med/dentistry since he always mentioned these professions and how much money they made!

 

Choosing the right supervisor is just as important as choosing the right project.

[3.14159265...]

It was evident that he hated his job, and he wished he went into med/dentistry since he always mentioned these professions and how much money they made!

I have seen this before, but both of the profs I work with this year asked me what I wanted to do and I said "Medicine maybe", they laughed and said "Ya, I wanted to do that too, but then I fell in love with science".

 

One prof who continously encourages me to go into research (I have mentioned I can't choose) actually got into med school and then didn't go.

 

HIM FTW.

[Rock*]

Oh yes, the NSERC.

 

I remember having the same experience as you. I thought I'd learn a bunch of stuff and make some connections. In reality, the lab was a disaster. A total clusterf#ck.

 

What's worse is that although I succeeded in modifying an experiment that nobody else had success with, I was not included on any publications. My work went completely uncredited. Apparently my supervisor was notorious for not crediting people for their work - too bad I found that out later rather than sooner.

 

So here's my advice to you:

 

1. DON'T BE A DOORMAT. I know as a premed its hard to be assertive, because you're afraid of what kind of connections one has with medical admissions faculty. You don't want to stand up for yourself against the rude phD student because his dad may be the dean of admissions for x med school. I say so what! If the PhD student is being a prick, stand up for yourself. What do you have to lose? If you do your work, you're going to get paid either way. And you're not going to get a letter of reference from the rude PhD student or any of the rude lab monkeys, so who cares what they think? If anything, the PhD student is angry because he knows you want to go into medicine and he just couldn't hack it.

 

2. TALK TO YOUR SUPERVISOR ASAP TO DISCUSS THE TERMS OF PUBLICATION. Be all business. If you end up making a new discovery, or if you contribute substantially to an existing project, will you get authorship? You need to get DEFINITIVE terms for publication. If publication is possible, then you have motivation to work hard and get results. If you are just another lab-monkey, just do what you're expected to do and go home at a reasonable time every day - don't break your back over it. Same goes if the project is too broad or implausible (or as you say, lame).

 

 

Don't let anyone bully you around. Being a doormat is the worst thing one can be.

Just floating this post up to the top because it's 150% right.

 

A lot of the "lifers" in research labs aren't doing research because they have amazing social skills and want to interact with people all day. Often they have low self esteem and rely on bullying the summer student to buoy their ego or they have no idea and/or inclination to help a transient 4 month temporary worker. Regardless of their motivation, you need to make your issues heard if you feel like you're being mistreated and get out if they're still unhelpful. You may be inexperienced with lab work, but that doesn't mean that you can get walked on by people inexperienced with social skills.

[ysk1]

I just want to give you guys an update on my situation.

Now I'm starting to actually like research and my supervisors aren't as intimidating as they were before. My PI is also paying more attention to me instead of being indifferent. I guess my effort to have weekly visits to his office hours paid off.

Unlike the first few weeks, where I was spending most time in lab reading papers and doing menial tasks, I'm now learning hands-on stuff like PCR design and experiments, DNA extraction, and analyzing control screen. I also understand my project and research papers much better, and this adds to the fun.

Some people in the lab are still not very nice, but now I got used to them.

I'm glad I didn't quit in the first few weeks, just as some of you here advised not to, because I might've missed out on a great experience and ended up burning bridges instead!

I think being patient and persistent when situation is harsh is really important.

I'm very grateful for all the advice and encouragements you guys have given me during hard times.

[strawberriHoney]

glad to know things are going better for you.

 

I am in a different situation. My prof is nice and the lab workers are nice. He only has one grad student who just finished his pHD and he's also very friendly. He has 4 summer students in total including me, all wants to go to med school.

So it really shouldn't be that bad but i hate my research. It should be an engaging research in lung and respiratory disease but this lab is soooooo unorganized that everything moves at a snail's pace. the lab manager talks way too much and never get anything done so he never teach us the stuff he was suppose to teach because he's always somewhere else.

The experiments are repetitive and with no sense of direction. it was just basic groundwork that has been done. At first I thought that we would have our own project to work on but no, we have 3 students working on a vague project when one student will suffice. But honestly, the people are nice.

 

With all that being said, I have decided to change my lab for next summer after my 2nd year in unviersity. I want to apply in the third year so i cant help myself but worry that if i only worked with a prof for one summer, then he wouldn't be able to give me a good LOR. and I'm scared that long term involvement in a project would look better than changing labs.

 

I have mostly made up my mind to find a new lab job next summer cuz regardless of my worries, I dont want to be miserable for summer.

 

I guess I really should've been more careful when i was looking for my summer jobs=(

[apache]

I can identify in some aspects, I really don't like the research we do, I find it constructivist and illegitimate, but my supervisors an co-workers are incredibly supportive and give me semi-difficult tasks (lit reviews, book reviews, running experiments, doing some stats.

 

I think the big thing is getting along with your supervisor and co-workers, it turns a bad experience into a pretty good one.

[xIcewind]

I definitely agree with what has been said in this.

 

I currently don't hold an NSERC, but I am still working in a lab getting paid. The professor and this lab has been wonderful, but I've worked previously in some labs that are rather disheartening.

 

What you have to realize is that unfortunately, publications are rare among summer students. What you could do (if you have spare time) is perhaps introduce yourself more amongst your colleagues. A good way to do this is to suggest a lab summer retreat (two days/a weekend), and then organize it. That way, you'll have done something memorable, and in an informal setting (maybe with a beer or two), you can get to know some people in your lab better.

 

As for the slow pace research and not understanding it, it's how it is, unfortunately. My experiments takes weeks to prepare, and months to analyze, and I'm not even doing any of the analysis!

 

After all though, you partaking in research does tell of an underlying desire and love of discovery, which will ultimately prove to be more beneficial on an application (and interview) than a half-hearted description of your publications.

 

Cheers,

xIcewind.