Religious Attire

[serenity]

Hi,

 

I have a question that has been on my mind since I received interview invitations. The question is kind of personal but I thought I should just go ahead and ask because this forum is completely anonymous. I know some people may feel my concerns are unnecessary but I would like nothing more than to hear the blunt truth. I am a Muslim women and wear a hijab (traditional head-wear). I guess my primary concern is whether or not my attire would be subjected to bias. Not necessarily because I believe the interviewers are discriminative, but because they may feel that I am open about my religious beliefs which some patients may be uncomfortable with. Obviously, I would not impose my beliefs on anyone and if there is a practice I am uncomfortable performing I know the best thing to do would be to recommend the patient to another physician. However, this is not something I can openly express in an interview. I guess I just want to know whether I should be concerned about this matter or not...Thanks in advance.

[w8kg6]

I doubt that there would be any religious bias, but there may be a communiction problem you'll encounter. My understanding is that a hijab covers the whole face, except for the eyes (I could easily be wrong...). Since your likely westernized interviewers will naturally pick up on a lot of information through your facial cues, it may pose a prolem that they can't see that. I know I communicate a lot with facial expression though, so perhaps that won't be a serious concern for you.

 

I doubt there will be any direct negative consequences of wearing your traditional garb.

 

EDIT: scratch that, after looking at what it actually is, it's not what I thought. There shouldn't be any problems.

[Jochi1543]

There was a med student in a hijab and another one in a turban at my Queen's interview. Don't worry about it.

[spiderpig]

I wouldn't worry about it - it may even set you apart from others in a positive way (if you give a good interview, that is).

[Guest viscous]

to the OP: it depends what you mean by hijab. If you wear niqab then you might get into trouble as I have yet to see a student in med school in Ontario who wears a niqab, there could be one, its just that I have not seen one. Or maybe those who wear niqab dont want to go into medicine in the first place and that explains their absence. But it might prevent you from communicating your message from the perspective of your interviewers. Regarding the scarf, yes, there was one first year med student at Queens interviews.

[serenity]

Thanks everyone for the replies...I'm not referring to a niqab which covers the face but a hijab which only covers the hair

[Guest viscous]

Thanks everyone for the replies...I'm not referring to a niqab which covers the face but a hijab which only covers the hair

 

should be fine.

[champion_forever]

should be fine.

 

I like your quote. Sheikh Ibn-Taymiyyah, what a scholar.

[NewfieMike]

Go for it! I think they look cool. There's a masters student at Memorial in Women's Studies doing her thesis on Muslim women in a small community and their pressure to fit in by choosing to/not to wear the traditional headdress. I can't see it hurting you.

 

 

 

But now that we're on the topic of religion, I have a legitimate question about adcoms and admissions. Like you said, if you felt uncomfortable performing a proceduce due to religious beliefs, you would refer the patient to someone else. Do you think that adcom's would be more interested in students who would feel comfortable in any type of procedural scenario? I promise that I am not knocking your beliefs or anything, just a general thought to open to the forum.

[Jochi1543]

 

But now that we're on the topic of religion, I have a legitimate question about adcoms and admissions. Like you said, if you felt uncomfortable performing a proceduce due to religious beliefs, you would refer the patient to someone else. Do you think that adcom's would be more interested in students who would feel comfortable in any type of procedural scenario? I promise that I am not knocking your beliefs or anything, just a general thought to open to the forum.

 

And the thread hijack begins...lol.

[Guest viscous]

Go for it! I think they look cool. There's a masters student at Memorial in Women's Studies doing her thesis on Muslim women in a small community and their pressure to fit in by choosing to/not to wear the traditional headdress. I can't see it hurting you.

 

 

 

But now that we're on the topic of religion, I have a legitimate question about adcoms and admissions. Like you said, if you felt uncomfortable performing a proceduce due to religious beliefs, you would refer the patient to someone else. Do you think that adcom's would be more interested in students who would feel comfortable in any type of procedural scenario? I promise that I am not knocking your beliefs or anything, just a general thought to open to the forum.

 

To meet the demands from the adcom, I will provide the supplies, I might recall my supplies once I begin my practice. Who is to say anything.

[Guest viscous]

I like your quote. Sheikh Ibn-Taymiyyah, what a scholar.

 

thanks. indeed, what a scholar!

[Carabiner]

I've seen a med student with a hijab. I don't think it'll be seen in an unfavourable light. We all have our beliefs; yours is just expressed more publicly.

Newfiemike:

 

But now that we're on the topic of religion, I have a legitimate question about adcoms and admissions. Like you said, if you felt uncomfortable performing a proceduce due to religious beliefs, you would refer the patient to someone else. Do you think that adcom's would be more interested in students who would feel comfortable in any type of procedural scenario? I promise that I am not knocking your beliefs or anything, just a general thought to open to the forum.

I'd think they'd be more interested in seeing how you'd handle such a situation. As long as you don't blow off the patient, and give good references, despite your own disagreement, it should be okay, right? I'd figure the committee would be unreasonable to expect all doctors to share the same views on all procedures; even they themselves might have misgivings about certain procedures.

 

Plus, if you get into euthanasia and stuff, taking on a "anything goes" attitude might be more controversial...

[Devari]

Hi,

 

I have a question that has been on my mind since I received interview invitations. The question is kind of personal but I thought I should just go ahead and ask because this forum is completely anonymous. I know some people may feel my concerns are unnecessary but I would like nothing more than to hear the blunt truth. I am a Muslim women and wear a hijab (traditional head-wear). I guess my primary concern is whether or not my attire would be subjected to bias. Not necessarily because I believe the interviewers are discriminative, but because they may feel that I am open about my religious beliefs which some patients may be uncomfortable with. Obviously, I would not impose my beliefs on anyone and if there is a practice I am uncomfortable performing I know the best thing to do would be to recommend the patient to another physician. However, this is not something I can openly express in an interview. I guess I just want to know whether I should be concerned about this matter or not...Thanks in advance.

 

It is not uncommon to see doctors, medical students, patients and so on with traditional religious headwear, whether it's a scarf, turban, and so on (this is probably true in virtually all professions as well, not just the medical profession). Canada is a very multicultual place so I wouldn't give it a second thought.

 

Where you would run into some surprised people would be with the head-to-toe coverings where the person's entire body and face are completely covered except for an eye slit to look through. Personally I have a number of issues with this because if you can't see a person's face it really impairs your ability to communicate effectively and because I have personal issues with women being compelled to cover their entire body for religious or cultural reasons. However, concerning typical religious headwear (scarves, turbans, and so on) I see this regularly and I definitely wouldn't worry about it at all.

[ma_ta]

"I have personal issues with women being compelled to cover their entire body for religious or cultural reasons"

 

Devari... who's to say those women are being compelled? There are many women who choose to cover themselves because this is what they desire...I'm not saying there aren't women who are forced but why is it that we associate "covering up" with something that one must be forced to do and wearing modern clothing (such as a bikini) with choice?

[Guest viscous]

It is not uncommon to see doctors, medical students, patients and so on with traditional religious headwear, whether it's a scarf, turban, and so on (this is probably true in virtually all professions as well, not just the medical profession). Canada is a very multicultual place so I wouldn't give it a second thought.

 

Where you would run into some surprised people would be with the head-to-toe coverings where the person's entire body and face are completely covered except for an eye slit to look through. Personally I have a number of issues with this because if you can't see a person's face it really impairs your ability to communicate effectively and because I have personal issues with women being compelled to cover their entire body for religious or cultural reasons. However, concerning typical religious headwear (scarves, turbans, and so on) I see this regularly and I definitely wouldn't worry about it at all.

 

I do think that such niqab would hinder communication with patients. But such women, who wear niqab, would not want to deal with male patients in the first place. Hence, they can take their niqab off in front of female patients. In regards to regular conversation with people, you must learn to communicate with such women without depending on facial cues. Such women only want essential/required communication with outsider males and i think that can be easily done with any person without depending on facial cues for communication and without trying to develop any sort of relation except that of being a human.

[Devari]

"I have personal issues with women being compelled to cover their entire body for religious or cultural reasons"

 

Devari... who's to say those women are being compelled? There are many women who choose to cover themselves because this is what they desire...I'm not saying there aren't women who are forced but why is it that we associate "covering up" with something that one must be forced to do and wearing modern clothing (such as a bikini) with choice?

 

In most cases the head-to-toe coverings we're talking about aren't optional, the woman is expected to dress in this manner and there are severe consequences if she doesn't do so. Even in countries where there are no laws requiring this type of dress there is often such strong pressure from the woman's family that she doesn’t really have a say in the matter. If it was entirely optional rather than being forced on the women that's a different story, but the reality is that many women in these situations aren't given an option with how they dress.

 

Now, I do understand and agree with the underlying religious principles that encourage women to dress modestly in public (i.e., not wearing provocative or revealing clothing), so it's not the underlying principles that I have any issue with. It's when a woman is required to cover her entire body and has no choice in the matter where it becomes a problem. It takes what would otherwise be a noble concept to an extreme where the woman's dignity is being disrespected because she is being forced to dress in a certain way.

 

Head scarves, turbans, and the general concept of dressing modestly for religious reasons don't run into this problem because they don't take the issue to an extreme and don't impair normal social interaction between men and women. You can see someone's face, communicate effectively, read facial expressions and recognize people easily. The head-to-toe coverings, on the other hand, isolate women socially and interfere with communication on a basic level.

 

Now, I'm sure someone is going to come back with the idea "What if it's their choice". My answer to that is, sure, if it's 100% optional then I can respect it as a personal decision. But in most cases the woman has no say in the matter and this is why I consider it a problem.

[Devari]

I do think that such niqab would hinder communication with patients. But such women, who wear niqab, would not want to deal with male patients in the first place. Hence, they can take their niqab off in front of female patients. In regards to regular conversation with people, you must learn to communicate with such women without depending on facial cues. Such women only want essential/required communication with outsider males and i think that can be easily done with any person without depending on facial cues for communication and without trying to develop any sort of relation except that of being a human.

 

Men and women are not segregated in North American society and in order to participate effectively in the medical profession you need to interact fully with both men and women as colleagues, supervisors, patients, family members, and so on. If someone is covering themselves from head-to-toe in public I don't see how they would be able to work effectively as a physician in North America. It's not just facial cues or facial expressions, it's the entire concept of being able to communicate effectively without a social or psychological barrier in place.

 

Using your example, suppose a woman who wears head-to-toe coverings for religious reasons wants to work as a physician in North America but only wants to treat women. What if she needs to consult a male colleague? What if her patient's male family members need to talk with her? What if you need a proper hospital ID photo where she can be recognized and she therefore needs to show her face in public? She can't work effectively under those conditions if she is keeping herself completely covered and doesn't want men to see her face.

 

Being a physician requires professional communication and interaction with all members of society, and choosing to isolate yourself from one gender with head-to-toe coverings makes this effectively impossible. So even putting aside my personal issues with women being required to cover themselves completely for religious reasons there are practical issues that would interfere with basic interactions within the medical profession.

[japlanet]

Men and women are not segregated in North American society and in order to participate effectively in the medical profession you need to interact fully with both men and women as colleagues, supervisors, patients, family members, and so on. If someone is covering themselves from head-to-toe in public I don't see how they would be able to work effectively as a physician in North America. It's not just facial cues or facial expressions, it's the entire concept of being able to communicate effectively without a social or psychological barrier in place.

 

Using your example, suppose a woman who wears head-to-toe coverings for religious reasons wants to work as a physician in North America but only wants to treat women. What if she needs to consult a male colleague? What if her patient's male family members need to talk with her? What if you need a proper hospital ID photo where she can be recognized and she therefore needs to show her face in public? She can't work effectively under those conditions if she is keeping herself completely covered and doesn't want men to see her face.

 

Being a physician requires professional communication and interaction with all members of society, and choosing to isolate yourself from one gender with head-to-toe coverings makes this effectively impossible. So even putting aside my personal issues with women being required to cover themselves completely for religious reasons there are practical issues that would interfere with basic interactions within the medical profession.

 

Agreed. And to add, how would it be acceptable for a physician to take only female patients (except for an OB/GYN I guess) because they are uncomfortable with men?? To me this seems equally ridiculous as saying that a doctor will only take hispanic patients because they are uncomfortable with white people.

[Guest viscous]

Agreed. And to add, how would it be acceptable for a physician to take only female patients (except for an OB/GYN I guess) because they are uncomfortable with men?? To me this seems equally ridiculous as saying that a doctor will only take hispanic patients because they are uncomfortable with white people.

 

it might seem ridiculous to you as you are a product of an environment which does not have such social constructs. But being a good doctor also involves the ability to realize that not all 6 billion humans have same connotations and worldview as yourself. There are niqabi doctors in Islamic countries and they contribute effectively to the personal well-being and healthcare of there community. They might not be successful within the North American construct, but to measure the effectiveness of their practice as doctors based on the North American social and professional settings is a wrong premise in the first place.

 

With that said, if such niqab-wearing students would want to successfully practice in the North American setting, they would have to compromise with their beliefs a bit, for the greater good of the community.

 

In your analogy, you are comparing race with gender. There are biological differences between genders which are universal. What biological differences are universal among different races? The very juxtaposition of the desire to not see patients based on gender with the desire to not see patients based on race highlights the inappropriateness of such a comparison because both are unrelated and unlike each other. There is no significant biological difference between a white man and a hispanic man, but there is a significant difference between a man and a woman (at the very least, a difference of one whole chromosome).

[SpanishFly]

ok guys relax, the poor girl asked a simple question, let's not get into the extremely complex (and irrelevant) conversation of the misogyny behind different faiths (or rather behind the men who interpret them, forget the misogyny of all cultures in general throughout time...but thats a whole other topic).

 

Anyways, OP I know a few people in medicine who wear a hijab. There might, however unfortunate, be some inherent bias in your interviewers, but the same can be said to any of us (what if my interviewer doesn't like the color of my skin or the school I went to?) Obviously, your faith is important to you, so be confident in that, thats all you can do really...go into your interview rocking a LV head scarf, and be proud of who you are, nobody can take thataway from you! Good luck

[rocky222]

Not to worry. One of my interviewers this year was a physician who had on a traditional hijab. I'm sure you'll do fine.

[Wolvenstar]

Agreed. And to add, how would it be acceptable for a physician to take only female patients (except for an OB/GYN I guess) because they are uncomfortable with men?? To me this seems equally ridiculous as saying that a doctor will only take hispanic patients because they are uncomfortable with white people.

 

a counter question to this. Would a man want to be treated by a physician who is uncomfortable with men?

[whale.of.a.time]

I don't think it'll be seen in an unfavourable light. We all have our beliefs; yours is just expressed more publicly.

 

Ha ha! This made me laugh, because just think of all the people who wear crosses. I mean, I can't count the number of people I see with a gold or silver cross necklace on. That's pretty public, in my opinion.

 

To the OP, I have seem many, many medical students, residents and a few staff doctors in hijabs at the hospital I worked at in Montreal. I don't think it will matter at all.

[ToHellInAHandbasket]

it might seem ridiculous to you as you are a product of an environment which does not have such social constructs. But being a good doctor also involves the ability to realize that not all 6 billion humans have same connotations and worldview as yourself. There are niqabi doctors in Islamic countries and they contribute effectively to the personal well-being and healthcare of there community. They might not be successful within the North American construct, but to measure the effectiveness of their practice as doctors based on the North American social and professional settings is a wrong premise in the first place.

 

With that said, if such niqab-wearing students would want to successfully practice in the North American setting, they would have to compromise with their beliefs a bit, for the greater good of the community.

 

In your analogy, you are comparing race with gender. There are biological differences between genders which are universal. What biological differences are universal among different races? The very juxtaposition of the desire to not see patients based on gender with the desire to not see patients based on race highlights the inappropriateness of such a comparison because both are unrelated and unlike each other. There is no significant biological difference between a white man and a hispanic man, but there is a significant difference between a man and a woman (at the very least, a difference of one whole chromosome).

 

I think that I agree with your stance the most. I have seen female doctors who wear niqab in Islamic countries. And they apparently have no issues. My only concern would be infection control with some forms of hijab, such as long heavy coverings and sleeves. Also, you have to make sure visibility and dexterity are not impacted. However, I am sure that there are ways around these issues, as doctors there deal with them every day.

 

Perhaps it's just me, but I tend to care most about the actual information coming from a person. I know that in the Western world we are taught that 90% of communication is "non-verbal"/non-linguistic, but to be honest, when it comes to medicine, it really is the information itself that matters the most. I don't need to see a colleague's face to understand them. But I agree that the Western world in general may not be as receptive as I am. Yet.

 

I think that a common misunderstanding is that hijab (in any form) is repressive. But most women who wear hijab find it liberating and free to be 'protected' from being seen as a sexual object. Or at the very least, it's the *idea* that they are more than their body. Some people may find women who feel the need to look a certain way and flaunt their body to be accepted are actually more repressed and ruled by men. Also, many people don't realize that the Qu'ran dictates hijab (although not niqab, I believe that is cultural and/or a choice). It's like telling someone not to listen to (their) God.

 

But enough of my opinions. Just for the record, I am not Muslim, I don't wear hijab, but I respect Islam and think it is greatly misunderstood. Which is a shame. Sorry for adding my 2 cents.

 

As for the OP, you should have no problems becoming an MD due to your religious beliefs. I know many doctors who wear hijab (never seen one in niqab though).

 

Good luck!

 

 

P.S. The only thing I disagree with is that there ARE physiological differences between the races. Some are more prone to certain diseases, others rarely develop certain illnesses, others respond differently to drugs. We just saw how Mexicans seemed to be more affected by the same (H1N1) virus that caused 'mild' illness in most non-Mexicans. Sure there are other factors like environmental pollution, but genetics appeared to play a role as well. But I know that's not what you were getting at.