Does (undergrad) UofT sometimes waiver PREREQUISITE courses?

[Guest dayne67]

Hi, I just finished my third year of engineering and I am probably going to take some BIO and CHEM courses next year at UofT, such that I could apply to Med School in a year or two. In terms of Biology, I know I first have to take first year BIO (BIO150Y?). However, I have heard that this course is useless by people and although, it satisfies one of the prerequisites for Med-School, the course's material is not on the MCAT and barely has anything in common with higher BIO courses. I don't want to get dragged down in a year long course that won't help me in the long run.

 

If this is true, would it be possible if I asked an instructor of a higher BIO course (Cell and Molecular Biology or Animal Physiology), to waiver the prerequisite (BIO150Y) for these courses, such that I can take them this upcoming school year?

 

If somehow the instructor allows me to do this, would this be a good idea?

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there dayne67,

 

It may have been the case in the past that a UofT instructor could waive the pre-requisite for a course and let you in. Now, however, with the use of the automated course registration system, professors rarely need be involved in this process as the computer automatically filters and boots out those students who do not have the prerequisites for any given course. That being said, exceptions may be made, but generally a wee bit of paperwork is involved. You should talk to the professor and then they may refer you to the program director, etc., to complete the process and override the system. It's definitely worth a go.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest Toonces]

OK, I'm tired of hearing everyone jump all over BIO150Y..I loved it, (plus I've TA'd it for two years) and the people involved in the course are very passionate about it and really work hard to give students a more general exposure to biology (evolution, ecology, conservation)..I get frustrated that so many students are so entirely focussed on medicine that they disregard other interesting aspects of life sciences and how incredibly important they are. And while it was not useful for the MCAT, I must add that I got very little from BIO250Y and animal physiol (both of which are substantially more difficult courses).

 

Sorry about that, but I get frustrated with the cyclops approach to getting into med school.

 

In any case, students are not generally permitted to take upper year biology courses without taking BIO150Y first. I would, however, speak directly to the course instructors regardless...most of them work in my department (Zoology), dayne67, so if you wish I can pass along their email addresses and you can contact them directly (I recommend in person..most of them are very kind people but they will respond better than over email).

[Guest tony]

dayne67: Although I did not take 1st year bio at UofT, I did take it at York (as well as some upper level bio courses). I'm not sure why you and Toonces are saying that it is not relevant to the MCAT-- I found it to be VERY relevant. Most of the stuff on the MCAT's biology section was covered in that course. I guess UofT and York cover different topics in their 1st year bio courses.

I also found it to be quite relevant to some of the upper level courses as well--cell biology and biochemistry (not at all for microbiolgoy and immunobiolgy, though).

 

If you still want to jump straight to the upper years and you can't go around that automated system at UofT, maybe you can try taking these courses at York--there is an automated enrollment system, but it doesn't check for prerequisites when you enroll. I've taken a bunch of courses at York without some/all of the prerequisites and with/without asking the course director--I was never denied enrollement or deenrolled later on.

I don't know if it's really an option for you since you'd have to be a York student, but I'm sure you could find out.

 

Maybe you can even go and take that 1st year bio course at York--it might be more relevant to your goals and you'll enjoy it more . Plus, York is just a fun place, man!

 

Antony

[Guest cheech10]

Talk to the department. Many of my friends found that the departments were willing to waive prerequisites or even waive courses that were "required" for their degrees. Not sure about BIO150, but it's worth a shot.

 

Toonces - I know the faculty involved with BIO150 are very passionate about it, but unfortunately the subject matter just isn't that interesting for a lot of students, and being forced to take a course that for many programs has no relevance to further studies can make one (understandably) irked. The course itself may indeed be quite wonderful for those that are wholeheartedly interested in the subject, but for others it seems like a waste of time.

 

tony - I don't know if you're familiar with BIO150 at UofT, but it focuses on evolution, ecology, etc., and is fairly different from most first-year bio courses at other schools which are more like general biology. That's why many students feel it's irrelevant.

[Guest dayne67]

Thanks for the advice guys. I am actually going to take courses at UTSC. So, I will try to contact the course instructor/director for first year BIO. This isn't something I am determined to accomplish, but I am considering my options.

[Guest UTMed07]

Hi dayne67:

 

I know someone, who incidentally also studied engineering, that took both BIO250Y and PSL302Y without the prereqs. I did the same, but my situation arguably is a bit different 'cause I was a grad student in biomed eng at the time.

 

U of T AFAIK does not waiver prerequisites. It does however have a very liberal approach to interpretation of what constitutes a biology course. I remember sitting in on a talk about U of T Medicine Admissions by Bill Greg & Leslie Taylor (U of T admissions people) specifically for engineering students (the N Sci biomed club organized it). They said, if your thesis is biomedical, it is considered a biology course by U of T--as are most of the biomed eng courses (e.g. biomechanical engineering, biomaterials, cellular engineering). I think U of T realizes that in engineering you don't really have electives and don't have time to do biology courses in parallel with and in addition to your other (required) courses.

 

If somehow the instructor allows me to do this, would this be a good idea?

I didn't have any problems. I think it is pretty easy to jump into biology from engineering. I've done a few bio courses... and my feeling is concepts in biology don't build so much on one another as in engineering... so prereqs aren't as important.

 

Cheers!

[Guest Toonces]

I know that Cheech..that's why I call it a cyclops approach. It's not that I don't understand why people feel this way, and I sympathize with the fact that some people want med school more than anything else.

 

But I stand by my statement...general education in other areas of science, as well as education in the humanities, are important to being a well-educated, rounded, interesting person. And that's part of what the university experience is intended to be...to turn you into a thinker, not an automaton. And if it turns out that you change your mind, or don't get into medical school..and I have met many many first year BIO 150 students who fit into this category.. you may have picked up some other interests.

[Guest UTMed07]

... general education in other areas of science, as well as education in the humanities, are important to being a well-educated, rounded, interesting person.

I agree and I think balance is important. Actually, I find people that have a narrow focus are boring, because you can only talk about one thing with them.

 

In any case, I just want to point out that dayne67 probably isn't a 'cyclops' (if I can use your term). Engineering isn't a conventional "want med school more than anything else" major. Dayne67 is probably concerned about their schedule. Engineering students at U of T unfortunately haven't had much room for breadth in the sciences; when I went through there is no way I could have fit in even one science course! I had some non-technical (read: non-engineering) electives, but they had to be in the humanities or social sciences.

 

I didn't take BIO150 and there are probably a few things I missed. That said, the course doesn't have a monopoly on thinking about the environment and the interconnections in our world (which I imagine is the gist of it). Engineering students at U of T have a course about engineering and the environment and I'm sure there is some overlap. Further, I tend to think jumping into the middle of something, like jumping into BIO250Y--a course that looks at the nitty-gritty details of cell biology-- gives you a good impression about what biologists actually do with their time and that I believe gives you good deal of the 'rounded' you and I both agree is important.

 

And while it was not useful for the MCAT, I must add that I got very little from BIO250Y and animal physiol (both of which are substantially more difficult courses).

I thought learning about gels, western blots, the transcription of DNA & translation of RNA and the like was very interesting--it is something I didn't encounter in my engineering courses. In hindsight, I think it was the right decision; I don't think I'd have gotten nearly as much out of BIO150Y.

[Guest pp15]

Further, I tend to think jumping into the middle of something, like jumping into BIO250Y--a course that looks at the nitty-gritty details of cell biology-- gives you a good impression about what biologists actually do with their time and that I believe gives you good deal of the 'rounded' you and I both agree is important.

 

Sorry but I have to disagree. What do u mean by what "biologists actually do with there time". Um..BIO150 is based on 'actual' research by 'actual' biologists. These days we seemed to be obsesssed with studying everything at the micro level and there seems to be the misconception that any research done at a different level of analysis (ie. macro-biology which is the focus of BIO150) is somehow illegitimate or 'soft'. This exactly what Toonces was alluding to her original post (i hope..). A lot of students seem to feel that macro-biology has no relevance to medicine, and feel that BIO150 is useless. I completely disagree with this sentiment. All biological research, regardless of the level of analysis, is important in figuring out how we function in our environment.

[Guest Toonces]

I wasn't really calling dayne a cyclops, UTmed07!..nor any engineer, in fact!..just stating that in my opinion, the idea that all education needs a direct correlation to med school is a narrow one, which you agreed with. And I didn't mind BIO250 either...I was just stating that I got little from it as regards the MCAT, which was, I believe, part of dayne's question.

 

I do find your statement about "actual biologists" to be totally off, however, and illustrative of of my original point (i.e. narrow mindedness)...as pp15 said, ecologists and evolutionary biologists and conservation biologists are real biologists, as perhaps you'd have known if you'd taken BIO150 (is "the gist" of engineering trains and concrete? Of course not!)

 

But I'm getting off my original point..UTmed07, let me rephrase it. I protest to the attitude that courses that can be directly related to medicine are somehow superior educationally. I believe that such an approach merely fences a person in, and I find condescension offensive.

Sorry if I was unclear in my original post.

[Guest TimmyMax]

Did UWOMED2005 post a reply in this thread? Just wondering, so as to make sure that I'm not losing my mind...

[Guest UTMed07]

What do u mean by what "biologists actually do with there [sic] time"?

Most biologists spend their time looking at cellular processes, turn genes on and off, run gels to sequence DNA or analyse proteins & their function etc... AFAIK BIO250Y is more representative than BIO150Y of what most biologists do today.

 

These days we seemed to be obsesssed with studying everything at the micro level and there seems to be the misconception that any research done at a different level of analysis (ie. macro-biology which is the focus of BIO150) is somehow illegitimate or 'soft'.

You're thinking I hate/don't value macro scale biology 'cause I skipped it? Hmmm.

 

I think you're reading something into my posts that isn't there. I didn't say the macro scale bio isn't valuable. If you think I implied that you misread what I wrote... or it wasn't written so well.

 

Somehow I can't help think you're convinced I should have taken more biology... and you didn't quite believe me when I wrote that I didn't have the time in my schedule for more than one bio course.

[Guest UTMed07]

Did UWOMED2005 post a reply in this thread? Just wondering, so as to make sure that I'm not losing my mind...

No UWOMED2005 didn't reply and no you're not losing your mind... or at least not yet.

[Guest Toonces]

Sorry about the name switcheroo..no slurs intended on UWOmed2005 at all :\ ! Or UTmed07. I've been working like a dog for my thesis defense and my brain is a bit scattered (okay, a whole lot scattered).

 

But UTmed07..I still disagree. Biology includes a heckuva lot more than cell biology, and there are lots of biologists in almost all of biology's subdisciplines (except poor old taxonomy). I don't think you hate macro-biology, but neither do I think, based on your comments, that you've had enough exposure to it to evaluate it. Similarly, I've taken physics but, despite having talked (and being related) to many engineers, my understanding of the material is pretty weak. I would not presume to compare my one lonely physics course to the engineering program.

 

However, perhaps we're just talking at cross purposes. Really, I don't feel that you should have to take more biology courses, and I understand that engineers have brutal schedules and their electives, especially if they're trying for meds, must be carefully chosen.

 

We'll have some fun conversations in the coming school year, huh? I'm looking forward to meeting you! :evil

[Guest UTMed07]

I've been working like a dog for my thesis defense and my brain is a bit scattered (okay, a whole lot scattered).

Yup... scattered brained it is. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Good Luck with the defense.

 

Biology includes a heckuva lot more than cell biology...

I know biology is more than just the cellular stuff. Also, I know it has lots of subdisciplines... each with their own illusions of being the most important--I imagine it is similar to the rivalry between engineering disciplines. I don't think I implied cellular bio is biology... seems I've hit a nerve... I get the feeling you've run into a few too many cellular bio people that have illusions of grandeur and plenty of attitude.

 

I'm looking forward to meeting you! :evil

I look forward to meeting you too. Good to know you have horns (like the devil)... make you easy to pick out of the crowd.

[Guest kp03]

I just graduated from UofT engineering. I'm also looking into taking prerequisite courses for med school.

 

Tony, that first year bio course you took at York, was that the BIOL 1010 or the BIOL 1410? What's the difference? Are both considered okay as prerequisites for med school?

[Guest kp03]

UTMed07, I'm also interested in doing a masters in biomedical engineering. I was wondering, if you're in the biomed program, do your courses count as prerequisites for med school?

[Guest peachy]

Hi kp03,

 

Tony, that first year bio course you took at York, was that the BIOL 1010 or the BIOL 1410? What's the difference? Are both considered okay as prerequisites for med school?

I think Tony is probably talking about BIOL1010; I took it and really enjoyed it also. Personally, my favorite part was the last third of the course that was about evolution and ecology

 

As to the difference between BIOL1010 and BIOL1410, 1010 is the regular first-year course for life science majors. It's officially the prerequisite for upper year bio courses. 1410 is officially designed for science majors that don't intend to take upper-year science courses.

 

That said, I think the courses are pretty similar. They use the same textbook (Campbell), and 1410 is allowed to substitute for 1010 as a prerequisite as long as the grade is a B or higher. The students enrolled are generally still science students, because there are different courses altogether for non-science students. 1410 is supposedly somewhat easier; I have no idea if that's true or not, though.

 

As far as I know, both courses should be fine for medical school prerequisites, as they typically ask for something quite vague, like "two semesters of biological science with lab", which could be fulfilled by many different courses. You could probably get more information from any of: the SOS, the biology department, or the Faculty of Science Student Academic Services.

 

peachy

[Guest kp03]

Thanks a lot peachy!

 

I have to work full-time so I was thinking of taking the 1410 class since it has classes in the evening, and the 1010 class has classes in the afternoon, not to mention that space in 1010 seems to be reserved (I couldn't enrol in it). I was just worried that the material covered in the 1410 wouldn't be relevant for the MCAT.

[Guest UTMed07]

kp03:

I was wondering, if you're in the biomed program, do your courses count as prerequisites for med school?

Yes and no. If you're in U of T's IBBME you're supposed to take a physiology course--that counts. The other courses I took aren't really prereq-like, but I imagine U of T would have recognized some of 'em if I didn't have what are considered real bio courses.

 

Balancing med school prereqs and a biomed eng master's isn't easy. I consider myself lucky in that my graduate supervisor was supportive of my medical school ambitions; they let me take additional courses.

 

If you have some specific questions about U of T's biomed eng program, feel free to send me an ezInbox message.