A specific, thought out call for perspective

[w8kg6]

Hey all, thanks for checking out the thread. It's not some naive first year asking about their chances... it's a naive fifth year asking about them, lol. Seriously though, I'm looking for a bit of perspective about which route is the best for me to take at this point. I've got a few options available to me, and as far as I know, there has been no prescedent for them, so I'd like to put this out there and get PM101's take.

 

First off, my stats:

 

GPA: 3.6 OMSAS overall, 3.65ish OMSAS best two years

MCAT: 28S first attempt (10-8-10), 31S second attempt (10-10-11)

 

ECs: 2 years varsity athletics, canada games athlete, 2 years hospital volunteering experience (working directly with children in peds ward), 1 year special olympics coach, 1 year vice president of engineers without borders, 6 months job shadowing with physician, regular small things (orientation committee etc.)

 

Work experience: Pulp mill summer student (not very relevant, but just for posterity's sake), summer kayaking guide, housekeeping crew at Panorama Mountain Village (basically a cleaning lady), online tutor (25 hrs/week during the schoolyear, did this for 2.5 years).

 

Where I'm at right now:

 

I applied to Dal last year, and was rejected. I applied to MUN and Dal this year, and was rejected at MUN, waitlisted #11 at Dal (about 7 ppl get off the waitlist each year, so I'll be left until next year). That's a solid result from Dal, because it puts me in the top 30% of NB applicants, which is certainly encouraging. Also, Dalhousie is opening a satellite campus in Saint John, New Brunswick, meaning there will be 30 seats reserved for NB applicants instead of 20. This will open in 2010 (so, for next app cycle), and I expect there will be huge waitlist movement that year for NB (as many people will be reluctant to go there). I can see that medicine is a viability for me, and I will keep trying until I get in. My question is what I should do in the meantime.

 

So, here are my options:

 

I'm rewriting the MCAT this year. I had very limited understandings of electricity and some aspects of G-Chem, and I had no idea about o-chem (quite literally no clue at all). In the past year, I've remedied these shortcomings. I also intend to work harder on VR. Should I score higher, I'll have a reasonable shot at U of C and perhaps Manitoba (I've already done the GPA calc and looked at the U of C equation, so take my word on this one, haha). Something that will be harder to fix is my GPA, which is admittedly low.

 

I'm currently doing an undergrad in Chemical Engineering. This is my second undergrad (kin science was my first, where I graduated a year early, but at the expense of taking insane courseloads resulting in a low GPA). I did 54 credit hours this past year (~18 courses), which was a mistake. Should I continue to do this undergrad, I would likely finish it in 3 years instead of the 2 I was originally intending. This will allow me to do 5 courses/sem instead of the 8 I was planning on. Also, I expect this will make me eligible for Queen's.

 

Another option that I've got is to do a master's. There is a project happening at my school in chemical engineering with biodegradable plastics, which is a distant second to medicine when it comes to my passions. There are 2 supervisor's, and it's kind of a jekyll and hyde setup (even though I get along well with them great, one is known to be extremely overdemanding, while the other is quite chill and reasonable). This master's will be 2 years, and will count as 1 year towards my Professional Engineer Status (for those of you who don't know, the P. Eng is essentially a 4 year apprenticeship that you have to do after completing an engineering degree. You have to finish this to become a real engineer. It's a lot like residency before you're an MD). The drawback of this is that I won't be able to apply to med for 1 year (at Dal, you can't quit a master's project to start an MD). Also, this won't let me 'upgrade' my undergrad GPA.

 

A final, small factor in all of this is the amount of EC involvement I'll be able to do. Although I've got a fair amount of Extracurrics already, one I'd like to get involved with is the reserves (for a few reasons, only loosely related to this post, except for the directly related fact that it will give me IP status at some schools [http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33838 should answer your questions]). Given time commitments, it would be much easier to do this if I was a UG student instead of a master's. On the other hand, I have no research experience, which would be remedied by a master's degree.

 

As you can see, it's a bit of a dilemma, with each possibility having distinct pros and cons. I'd like to hear your thoughts. For any other info, send me a PM.

[Jochi1543]

Cliff's notes?

[w8kg6]

Cliff's notes?

 

TL;DR

 

Heh, jk. I need to know if I should do a master's or stick with my second UG. Each is good and bad in different ways. That's the short of it... but I don't think you'll be able to give me a useful answer without reading through it all, sry . It's going to have a real impact on my pursuit of meds, and I wanted your guys' perspectives before I make a decision that may be too brash.

[NewfieMike]

lots of options man. We've talked about this a lot on FC though, and you seemed pretty hellbent on the military route. what's holding you back?

 

btw, you don't need residency to have an MD (or so I thought...??)

[w8kg6]

lots of options man. We've talked about this a lot on FC though, and you seemed pretty hellbent on the military route. what's holding you back?

 

btw, you don't need residency to have an MD (or so I thought...??)

 

Sry, maybe to be a practicing doc, rather than an MD. And yeah, I'm set on that route, but after talking about it with a recruiter, they told me that one of the unmentioned parts of the MMTP is that you are competing against other military ppl, most of which have 10+ years of regforce experience. Since I'd have 2 years experience as a reservist, I was told it was very ulikely I'd be selected through this route. I am still going to do MOTP, but this requires that I get into a med school on my own, and THEN join the army.

 

This means I'm still sutck at the impasse outlined above.

[MSmith19]

Can the Master's count towards GPA boost (which I think that is why you are doing a second undergrad??).

 

To me, it would be a no brainer. I would start the masters because what good will a second undergrad degree do you, besides raising GPA? It's always good to have a solid backup plan- you never know, you might wake up one day and decide that medicine isn't what you want, or you may find a new passion.

 

You also mentioned engineering with the military.

 

I'm not trying to say that you can't make med school- because you obviously can. But I've always been taught to keep the doors open to as many opportunities as possible. If you can keep those doors open while satisfying both goals (medical school and moving along with your plan then you can't go wrong.

[w8kg6]

Can the Master's count towards GPA boost (which I think that is why you are doing a second undergrad??).

 

To me, it would be a no brainer. I would start the masters because what good will a second undergrad degree do you, besides raising GPA? It's always good to have a solid backup plan- you never know, you might wake up one day and decide that medicine isn't what you want, or you may find a new passion.

 

You also mentioned engineering with the military.

 

I'm not trying to say that you can't make med school- because you obviously can. But I've always been taught to keep the doors open to as many opportunities as possible. If you can keep those doors open while satisfying both goals (medical school and moving along with your plan then you can't go wrong.

 

This is good advice. Unfortunately, I don't think that a master's GPA is looked at the same as a Ug GPA at a lot of schools, and also one of the supervisor's is kind of stingy, so I'm not sure the master's would be the right way to go to rasie that number. I could likely still muster the minimum for IP students in the maritimes (3.3 OMSAS), but I expect a 3.8+ OMSAS while doing a UG. That difference will open quite a few doors. Just to clarify, both the second UG and master's are in chemical engineering, so as far as pursuing my dream goes and opening doors, they're effectively the same. Also, should I be 'forced' to contiue with engineering all the way until it's done, I'd be working in the civilian realm, and not connected with the military at all. The dilemma comes from the fact that the masters will take med off the table for 2 years, while the UG won't do this. On the other hand, the master's will give me a heads up when it comes to my backup plan, if that's what it comes down to.

 

Given how specific this problem is (and also how personal of a decision it is, as well), I understand this is a choice PM101 can't make for me. I would like to hear your take on it though, as well as any similar experiences you've had. I'm sure the choice of taking a master's or taking a year off (which is, in this case, the equivalent of a year continuing a second UG) is a somewhat common one.

[MSmith19]

On a side note. I'm thinking of joining the reserves but I am concerned about the obligation to wartime if a serious conflict comes up. Do you know much about this? I would like to participate in the military but never as a soldier.

 

 

Just read your post. I would argue that the Master's > second undergrad although they are in the same subject. A Master's will land you ALOT more jobs. However, putting you out of med for 2 years may be the downside. Your EC's look pretty good already- I think there comes a point when getting more won't make that much of a difference (diminishing returns I guess).

 

What about as far as contributing to your GPA?

[w8kg6]

On a side note. I'm thinking of joining the reserves but I am concerned about the obligation to wartime if a serious conflict comes up. Do you know much about this? I would like to participate in the military but never as a soldier.

 

 

Just read your post. I would argue that the Master's > second undergrad although they are in the same subject. A Master's will land you ALOT more jobs. However, putting you out of med for 2 years may be the downside. Your EC's look pretty good already- I think there comes a point when getting more won't make that much of a difference (diminishing returns I guess).

 

What about as far as contributing to your GPA?

 

Hey, I edited my above post to address the GPA issue. I think I was doing that while you were typing this, sry, heh. Here's the quote, so you don't have to dig through:

 

"Unfortunately, I don't think that a master's GPA is looked at the same as a Ug GPA at a lot of schools, and also one of the supervisor's is kind of stingy, so I'm not sure the master's would be the right way to go to rasie that number. I could likely still muster the minimum for IP students in the maritimes (3.3 OMSAS), but I expect a 3.8+ OMSAS while doing a UG. That difference will open quite a few doors."

 

As far as if you'll be called up from the reserves, it's possible, but not likely. As it stands, there are more than enough regforce soldiers to maintain a regular rotation when it comes to being put into a war zone. The military understands that people in the reserves may not be as excited to go away as would a regforce person, but the possibility is still there.

 

Honestly though, as far as I know, it's mostly just a part time job where you work out, develop leadership skills, and do some really cool, military related things. Sure, they're training you to be a soldier, but it looks like you've got an interest in this anyways. They would not pull you out of a uni program to put you in war, though. It's not in their best interests (since you need a uni UG to be an officer).

 

With regards to diminished returns on joining the reserves, I agree that this would be true to an ADCOM. A real benefit that this EC would give me though is that it would put me heads and shoulders above the rest when it comes to applying to MOTP, which is the route I'd like to go, but is also moderately competitive.

[MSmith19]

Thanks for the info.

 

Ofcourse joining the reserves will have a ton of benefits that are above and beyond just trying to get into medicine..which is one of the reasons I want to join. Although I am sure joining the reserves would do nothing but boost your EC.

 

Good luck.

[future_doc]

Things being equal you have a shot of getting into med earlier by not going for a Masters. I would advise against the Masters for all the reasons you have given against it. I would take a normal course load as you suggest.

 

You are in overload and understandably conflicted. To me, it is a simple decision and is a no brainer. I know I am not being particularly helpful as you have already been told on this thread it is a no brainer to go for the Masters.

 

If you have the time, relax and focus on other matters and then return to the issue with a refreshed state of mind.

[The Law]

Yo, #11 is a decent waitlist spot @ Dal!! Maybe you won't have to consider any of these.

[w8kg6]

Hey guys, thanks for all of your input. It weighed in on my decision for sure.

 

I've decided to stick with my undergrad. Although I realize it's not a safe bet to bank on the SJ school working out for me next year, I feel pretty confident that if I can get a top 15 waitlist position there, there is a really solid chance I'll get in (again, just because of the waitlist movement, which I expect to be substantial). To get this placement, I could actually FALL 14 positions (come in at position 45 instead of 31), so I'm confident that it should work out.

 

I'm putting a lot of work into broadening my medical background this summer. In fact, today I had my first shift as an autism specialist, and I'm working with a youth living with severe autism (complete with restraints and 24/7 care). I act as primary care provider, and have a job that entails not only teaching and caring for, but also administering meds and some of the less glamorous parts of medicine (cleaning up after wet beds and bowel movements). I realize that on a ward floor, these jobs are done more often by nurses than MDs, but I feel that this experience will be able to prove that I realize medicine isn't all unicorns and rainbows.

 

Anyways, I just wanted to revisit this thread and type up my decision and where I'm at now, just in case someone stumbles upon it down the line while in a similar situation. Maybe in the coming years I'll return and post what parts of this summer's experience got me in after all .

[Laura_333]

I would have stuck with the UG also. It seemed in all your postings that you were leaning in that direction anyway--so it seems you made the right choice for yourself!

[TeaHatingBrit]

That was one monster of a post...

 

As I was reading it, I was thinking as an OOP student, U of C may be a good option for you - they will take your best 2 years (because you have a degree). And use that in your GPA calc. A 31 S isn't a bad score at all; because of the S you will get 2 extra points in your MCAT portion.

 

Your EC's are through the roof - and U of C LOVES athletics. They heap on the points for sports.

 

Given that they take your best 2 years - I don't know what your re-calculated GPA would be, but it isn't that low. Your EC's should be more than enough to compensate for it.

 

I think maybe continue with your undergrad, only because - I would suggest you have a high chance of getting in this year, U of C loves mature students, and they just bumped the class up from 150-180 students. The only thing going against you here is the 85% Alberta quota.

 

But Dal sounds very promising as well, and I'd like to think you would get in next year, so would you really want to start a masters and then abandon it halfway through..? I vote go undergrad.