at last!

[Guest ozymandiasking29]

Well, U of T has finally seen it fit to let me know that I've been rejected >: The thing is, they refuse to give any feedback about the application, and if I should have to apply again next year (hopefully not) I really have no clue what it is that could have sunk me. I thought I had everything covered. Has anyone else had to reapply without getting any feedback on your application, and if so (and you got an interview the second time) how did you go about improving your application? Thanks.

[Guest main82]

if you don't mind, what was your gpa entering... i'm only asking this because i want to compare myself to see where i stand. thanks

[Guest Biochem10]

I just wanted to point out that GPA is not reflective of whether you receive an interview (other factors are). I think it's a combination of things (essay + GPA + autobio sketch) that really determines whether you are invited. So I don't think it's fair to ask someone who's been rejected to post their GPA. People have been invited for interviews with GPAs in the range of 3.6 to 4.0, there have been plenty of examples on this board of people interviewed on both ends of that range.

[Guest peachy]

Check out http://www.mdapplicants.com if you're curious (and add your own profile :b ) It basically confirms what Biochem10 said, though.

 

Ozymandias - It certainly sucks not to get feedback. But you should be able to figure it out for yourself, right? They publish on their website what their pre-interview criteria are (quoted below). Are you sure your references were good? Did you have others critique your essay for you? Is your GPA competitive?

 

How are non-academic qualifications considered?

 

60% of the application is based on academics and the remaining 40% is based on non-academic qualifications. As part of the application package, applicants must submit an autobiographical sketch, three standard letters of reference and a four page autobiographical essay. This information will be reviewed by a member of the faculty and a medical student. A composite score will be achieved by averaging the three scores received from the reviewers and will count for 40% of the application. This composite will be combined with the academic score (worth 60% )to provide a rank order of candidates eligible for interview.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Unfortunately, the U of T selection process can be as variable as some of the other schools that are commonly criticized. A friend of mine who is now a third year clerk applied twice to U of T. First year, he had completed one degree (a BA,) and had just started a program to add a BSc to those qualifications. He received an interview at U of T but was subsequently rejected. The next year he completed the BSc, his GPA went UP, he was involved in a lot more volunteering and yet he got rejected without interview despite improving his application. Go figure.

 

In another example, another friend of mine mentioned their father was a prof in a department that fell under the umbrella of the faculty of Medicine (ie immunology) and as a result was obliged to mark a certain number of admissions essays (this was a few years ago. . . I don't know if this is still the case.) He wasn't too happy about this, and my friend mentioned that they were a bit surprised to hear their father talk about the experience - said father supposedly didn't give great marks unless an essay really impressed him. I don't know how or if U of T accounts for this kind of thing, but this kind of phenomenon potentially could affect scores.

 

I don't mean this as a criticism of U of T - we've seen this criticism WAY too many times on this board. I bring this up only to point out that the selection procedure is not infallible, that rejected applicants should not take rejection as a testament to their ability to get into med school. It's just an unfortunate part of the, pardon my francais, @#%$ that goes with applying to medicine. And you'll probably find when you do get in to medicine (and I firmly believe you'll get in if you keep at it) that the process works - you will have some great fellow classmates.

 

I think such occurences unavoidable when subjective criteria are used to assess candidates, and even UWO (which is one of the more objective in criteria) has variability, in the interview scores. I also think some subjectivity is necessary. . . a system based entirely on raw GPA and MCAT scores would be foolish.

[Guest ozymandiasking29]

Hi

 

I don't mind posting my gpa - it's 3.88 (I've finished 2 years).

Peachy, thanks for the reply, but the reason I can't figure out what's wrong is that I've already looked at all the different aspects. I know my gpa isn't one of the highest, but I thought it was pretty competitive. I also know I had very good references because the three people I asked knew me well and liked me (one of them even showed me the reference letter afterwards). I had tons of different extracurriculars and I was even working on a research paper with a prof that has since been submitted for publishing. I suppose the only thing could have been my essay, but again, I don't know what it is about it that could have been the problem. I had it checked by my sister who was accepted into U of T med on her first application, and she thought it was alright. Sorry to go on like this, but I've just been really frustrated with the way U of T has been handling the application process. To be honest, U of T was my first choice all along (I am attending undergrad there right now), but seeing how they have treated me and others like me - not even bothering to tell us we didn't get interviews until the interviews were over - has totally changed my mind about them. I only hope I don't have to go through the whole application process again.

[Guest peachy]

Ozymandias, that really does SUCK >: It's probably not about you, then, just the luck of the draw.

 

I wonder why they didn't let you know until so late, though?! They wouldn't tell you when you asked? Maybe they keep a shortlist of people to ask at the last minute in case there are cancellations? And then this year because of SARS things were so crazy that the letters didn't get out until later? Just givin' them the benefit of the doubt

 

Also, about what UWOMED2005 said about the process working because the med school classes are full of great people - I have no doubt. Medical schools and applicants have completely different goals. As a medical school, my priority is to make sure that I don't accidentally accept anybody unacceptable, and losing several really excellent people is almost certainly worth this tradeoff. Obviously as applicants we don't like being the people who get traded off.

 

The "no feedback" is the worst part, I think ... given how much time and energy of so many people is spent on this process, you'd think there'd be some way to easily use some of this time and energy to giving us feedback (not just at U of T, everywhere). Completely regardless of whether we're accepted - I mean, if two people gave up an hour of their time to interview me, and to write up what they thought about it, why can't I get some idea of my strengths and weaknesses to be useful to me in future interviews? That would add, what, a few minutes for each applicant to the process? Same applies to essays, etc.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Medical schools and applicants have completely different goals. As a medical school, my priority is to make sure that I don't accidentally accept anybody unacceptable, and losing several really excellent people is almost certainly worth this tradeoff. Obviously as applicants we don't like being the people who get traded off.

 

Wow - I think that might be the first time I've seen an applicant post that on this board. And I think it is bang on, and a point that is often missed by applicants.

 

That being said, the feedback given to applicants is atrocious and completely acceptable considering you pay good money to have them look over your file. Last year I even heard of someone who was outright harassed after asking for feedback. That's just not right.

[Guest Biochem10]

I just wanted to add that I agree that the no feedback aspect sucks, but I think one way to get around it might be to ask some med students or faculty (if you know any) to go over your file (essay, extracurriculars etc...) and give you an objective perspective. You mentioned your sister is a med student and she read your essay which is good, but you should also get someone to read it who doesn't know you at all. (remember the admissions committee doesn't know you, so it's all in what you give them on paper) In fact, I got someone I barely knew to read mine (she also happens to be a doctor) and then we went over whether while reading it she got a clear picture of who I am. I know that if I were accepted I wouldn't mind doing this at all for someone. Anyway, good luck with the rest of the schools you applied to, hopefully one will work out for you. There are a lot of people in the same shoes as you, I was talking to a couple in my class who haven't gotten a letter yet either.

[Guest ozymandiasking29]

Thanks all, although I can't do anything to change what happened, the sympathy does help:)

Biochem, you might be right in that it would have been better to have someone not so close to me read the essay to give their comments. I will definitely keep it in mind should I have to reapply. Thanks again.

[Guest peachy]

Where else did you interview, Ozymandias?

[Guest ozymandiasking29]

I interviewed at Western and Queens. They were actually the only schools I applied to other than U of T.

[Guest main82]

i didn't know that what i asked was gona bring up so many objections. i was just curious cause i have never heard anyone with a 3.6ish gpa to get into med school. maybe they do and they dont post it up here. and i think that by the time i apply my gpa is going to be between 3.6 and 3.7. and so far i don't have that much hope as far as getting in goes.

 

but i hope all the best for ozymandi. hopefully you'll get in one of the other 2 you applied.

 

cheers

[Guest JSS02]

3.6 is fine for many med schools. On top of that, many schools with requirements above that (e.g. U of T, Western) have weighting formulas that push your GPA up. For example, if you have a full course load every year and you apply to U of T in 4th year, they'll drop your 3 worst courses. That could easily bring a 3.6 cumulative GPA up to say 3.75 or higher, if you have a few marks that really pull you down. This year, UWO needs 2 years above 3.70... but you could easily have a "3.6ish" overall GPA while still meeting these requirements (e.g. two years with a 3.75, two years with a 3.50). So it's really not as bad as it sounds.

[Guest MayFlower1]

ozymandiasking,

 

It really does suck that the schools don't give candidates some feedback. It's too bad they can't intregrate the feedback into their note-taking during the interview so it is no extra work at all...perhaps just a few positive and negative highlights for the applicant to reflect on. Anyway, the good news is, you've applied to two more schools and still have a great chance of getting an offer from at least one of them. Keep your head up...

 

Peter

[Guest Biochem10]

Main82, I wasn't trying to object to ozymandias giving you his GPA, I was just trying to make the point that statistically knowing one person's GPA that has been rejected won't give you an overall idea of what is required for an interview. In fact, ozymandias' GPA is pretty high, so I don't think that was why he didn't get an interview. Obviously, you should try and get the best GPA you can, but as JSS02 pointed out you will probably be fine with a GPA in the 3.6-3.7 range, you'll have make sure the other components of your applications are really strong. Like I said in my first post, it's really a combination of things that will help you get an interview.

[Guest jmh2005]

I don't want to start a big discussion on this, but...I have always found UofT isn't exactly the leader in communications with their health sciences applicants.

 

Prior to medicine, I had applied to OT school there and only got a rejection letter AFTER asking them for one! They said I lacked a prerequisite (which all other schools required and accepted, but not UofT...) thankfully I had received 2 other acceptances prior to hearing from UofT, so I didn't care, but wanted to know whether or not I had been rejected, or if my letter had gotten lost in the mail. I also applied to grad school there, and the same thing happened...

 

ozymandiasking....Well, at least they finally sent you something and now you know where you stand with them...and you have a very solid GPA... Does UofT take into account the years of school you have completed (I didn't apply there, so I don't know what they really want...) perhaps they prefer degree completion? I don't know...UWO2005s advice is great!

 

Hope the other schools work out for you, you sound like a very solid candidate, like many of the above posts said, go over everything yourself and have someone else who is totally objective to go over your whole application...best of luck!

[Guest Valani9]

I had the same thing happen to me. (ie. I didn't get an interview)

 

I called them, and they calculated my GPA in the 3.9 range - so that could not have been it. I also had my essay read by two people who used to be on the admissions board at UT.

 

Unfortunately, the reality of the med-school application process is that it's far from being an exact science. Very many people slip through the cracks, and don't get proper consideration. This is why even the best applicants apply to 5+ schools. It's pointless getting too worked up about it (easier said than done, I know) - you're bound to get screwed over by at least one place, but you'll get recognition at the other places.

 

Good luck.

[Guest Koggetsu]

yeah I totally agree with the fact that what medical schools are looking for are diffrent than what the applicants are looking for.

However, I've read on many posts here and stories from elsewhere, where the people who are either reading your profile or interviewing the applicants are looking for a "star" and so if in their minds, if you don't fit their profile for a "star", then its tough luck for you. sigh...

[Guest UWOMED2005]

And what one person's idea of a star is can be vastly different from another person's idea of what a star should be. A lot depends on the essay or interview evaluator's personality. One evaluator might think the ideal applicants is picky about details, very exact and takes things very seriously on the essay or in the interviewer. On the flip side, another evaluator might prefer someone who was a little more relaxed, makes the occasional joke and is more interested in the big picture than details.

 

And then if you get into specific activities that someone has done, the value of those activities can be vastly different depending on the person's perspective. For example, I played a lot of rugby in High School and University (in fact, I still do,) won some awards and had some leadership experience, and as a result it was all over my autobiographical sketch. One evaluator might have seen that as evidence that I'm experienced at participating in teamwork, that I can keep a cool head under pressure (rugby is great for this - in fact the British would force their officers during WWI and WWII to play rugby for this reason) and that I already have some experience diagnosing sports injuries. On the other hand, another evaluator might see "rugby" on the application and think that I was a "boar," probably drank too much, partied too much, sang crude songs and dropped the drawers too often (a tradition one some teams. . . not that I've ever played on those teams,) making me totally unsuitable as a candidate for medicine. Totally depends on the evaluator's perspective.

 

That's why you can't put too much stock in great reviews from students/faculty members who have "been on admissions committees." They are not necessarily going to be evaluating your essays or scoring your interviews themselves (and in fact shouldn't be, as that would be a conflict of interest) and the person evaluating you in the end might not have the same perspectives. On the other hand, I do think such information is useful as there are certain things that will universally look bad, and there are other things you should do. Just don't think such help will guarantee anything. And this sort of phenomenon is also why I repeatedly state you can't take what happens in meds admissions procedures too seriously.

[Guest Koggetsu]

yep exactly,

I have been involved in a lot of martial arts stuff but I think that most people on the committee wouldn't regard that as highly as say someone who has done a lot of stuff involving music or piano for example (not tying to pick on anybody ^^)

 

So I think that I would suffer more in my interviews

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Not necessarily!!! I'd probably have looked on them equally.

[Guest ozymandiasking29]

Wow... you guys (and gals) are great for encouragement and making someone feel better I appreciate all the advice. Thanks everyone!

 

Main82: JSS02 is right about the gpa. As far as I know, U of T is far more flexible than other schools like Western and Queens in terms of giving an interview if you have a lower gpa, particularly if you have their favorite thing of all RESEARCH!!! It's also true that they drop your three lowest courses if you finish three years and your four lowest if you finish four years - I calculated the effect based on what I expect my grades to be this year, and the effect is pretty significant. So, don't despair, and good luck!

 

jmh2005: I strongly doubt that the number of years you've completed is taken into account at U of T (at least not in an official way; individually some people might consider it). Only grad students are actually considered separately.

 

Good luck everyone! You sound like a bunch I wouldn't mind studying with for four years

 

p.s. - not a biggie Biochem10, but I'm actually a "she" - I only chose the name because I really like the poem

[Guest sally2001]

ozymandiasking,

i briefly read through this thread and i just wanted to say that i feel you shouldn't discount u of t in the future (if you need to re-apply) because of some incompetencies in their administration. while all canadian medical schools are top class, u of t is a prestigious school and if you think you would thrive in their environment, don't let your current emotions influence your future! what i mean is, they certainly didn't show much consideration for some applicants and i know if that was me, i'd be very ticked off, but if you hold that against the school and don't re-apply because of it, you'll only be losing out on a great school (ie it doesn't sound like they would care anyway).

you should like a great candidate and i wish you well.

[Guest Chieka]

That's good advice, Sally2001. ozy, you'd be surprised at how many reapplicants are in med school now. (Hopefully you won't have to try again, though!)

 

C.