wrong program???

[Guest meenah]

hey everyone,

 

i'm currently enrolled in the molecular genetics and m. biology program at u of t. i've recently heard some rumours from ppl that mgb profs hate kids who want to do medicine...which might prove to be a problem when it comes to writing references. can anyone confirm this? in the long run, i'd like to do med, but i'm starting to second guess myself into picking the wrong program...??

 

thanks. your replies are much appreciated

meenah

[Guest therealcrackers]

then don't announce yourself as a meds gunner! MGB is a terrific program which will serve you in good stead for the underpinnings of a lot of the biochem/micro/genetics courses in medicine.

[Guest Asif]

Hey Meenah,

 

I was originally in the MGB program; however, after getting advice from some of my TAs, who had completed MGB, I switched into Human Bio. I'll be starting 1st year at UT Medical School in September, so I think I made the right decision. Two of my friends didn't switch into Human Bio with me, and their GPAs fell through the floor. They have very little chance of getting into medicine.

 

Having said that, it is possible to get into Medical school with MGB as your undergraduate specialist. It will be very difficult. That's mainly because the Profs. in MGB do hate Med. Keeners, and because of the difficulty of the program itself. Don't get me wrong - it's a great program, and if you plan on doing graduate work, then MGB is the way to go. I chose Human Bio. because I knew I would never do graduate work. TheRealCrackers was right when he/she indicated that MGB would offer great preparation for Medical School; however, that's if you can get in after your GPA is brutalized by the MGB courses (especially the labs). Remember, everything you need to learn in Medical school can be learned when you get into medical school. Sure MGB will help with Medical school; but, you have to balance that prospect with the detriments MGB will have on your GPA.

 

Of course, in the end, it's your decision. I've simply outlined my take on it, and how I approached the situation when I was in the SAME position as you. Good luck!

[Guest JSS02]

I can't comment on the MGB profs, but I know of several people in the program who have gotten into meds during the past couple of years.

[Guest cheech10]

The courses aren't *that* hard; I know 3 people well that were in immunology and biochemistry (which have common courses in 3rd year) who got into med school this year, and I think at least one other person from my MGB311 class that got in this year.

 

I personally didn't like many of the profs either, but didn't feel any great dislike for med students on their behalf. On the other hand, I never told any profs that I was applying to med school and I wasn't close to any of the MGB profs either.

 

I don't really think the program choice will make you or break you. I got a reference letter from a prof I did research with, not a prof that lectured to me, since I knew the first prof much better. I don't think you need more than one reference letter from a prof. So I don't think program choice is a big deal. Just pick a program that let's you take the courses you like, and that will be a reasonable back-up plan.

[Guest BennyG]

Dear meenah,

 

I was an MGB undergraduate student and also completed a Master's degree in the MGB graduate program. I was accepted to medical school, however my path was somewhat circuitous. Check out my previous posts, i.e. rants, if you are interested.

 

Your concern is valid. The MGB faculty is composed of dedicated and accomplished scientists, the vast majority of whom are not M.Ds. Most of the work performed by these scientists is of a basic rather than an applied/clinical nature. The combination of these two factors, coupled with a fiercely competitive nature bred in this age of rapid biomedical scientific progress, means that a self-declared med keener will not be appreciated in the MGB academic milieu.

 

I observed this phenomenon very early in my MGB training. I was very idealistic at the time; the fascination with and scientific potential of molecular genetics easily developed within me a zeal that I could share with my non-med-keener classmates and with my professors. I had abandoned all interest in medicine anyway after a very difficult first undergraduate year. While my grades remained moderately intact, I did not enjoy an environment where learning was secondary and accomplishment was only for the sake of competition for admission elsewhere (ah, how naive I was!)

 

Therefore, I could conveniently ignore the subtle (and sometimes blatant) denigration directed towards students interested in medicine. At worst, they were perceived as insincere and untrustworthy, and more likely to behave inappropriately, in the stereotypical manner of undergraduate med keeners (not sharing notes, test material, etc.), but that being said, we all got along pretty well and I do not remember anything "bad" happening along those lines. Perhaps it was just immature jealousy or perhaps I simply misinterpreted the emotions of my classmates.

 

Likewise, certain faculty were of the opinion that students whose ultimate goal was admission to medical school were obviously not as interested in the course material or in molecular biology in general. Now that several years have passed, and both the bitterness and elation of those years have blended together, I can tell you that there is some truth and validity to both "sides" of this argument.

 

Yes, SOME MGB faculty do not like students bound for medical school. As much as it may offend you and others in your position, I can understand the genesis of these feelings. The various sub-disciplines of molecular biology (e.g. developmental biology, functional genomics, etc.) are all extremely competitive these days. Although the research funding situation has improved over the past few years, there is still intense competition for money and also intense competition between labs to produce and publish results. In addition, scientific training to become an independent investigator is a long and arduous process, similar to medicine, but without the guaranteed stable employment. Therefore, SOME faculty do not want to waste their time, money or emotional input on students who will simply leave to pursue medicine the instant the admission letter arrives. And yes, there is an emotional input to being a teacher even if it is not always apparent.

 

As for the students, do not worry about the perceptions. Find some good friends and relax. I really liked my MGB undergraduate class. They were good, friendly and very intelligent people, without exception, even the ones who wanted to go to medical school! 8)

 

The MGB program is difficult. Of course, this is where somebody else will post saying how they found MGB easy and still got a 4.0 GPA, etc., etc. and found time to volunteer in Africa building an HIV clinic and helping the homeless, etc. I cannot speak to those points, other than to state that I did find the MGB program difficult. However, I worked very hard and was fascinated by what I was learning, so I still did well. My OMSAS GPA was a 3.78 in the end, but that was due to one really bad grade which had nothing to do with the MGB courses. Without that grade, I would have had a 3.85, which is still competitive for undergrads applying to meds. And I was NOT at the top of my class nor am I that bright. So it is possible to do well in MGB. But other posters are correct as well - the MGB program loses students each year. I did see some students' GPAs drop significantly, although I'm not sure if it can be predictably and routinely blamed on the lab courses versus the lectures. The fourth-year lab course usually has a good class average and is not perceived as difficult for most of the students (I know, I was a TA for this course). However, fourth-year students may be a biased sample since at least some of the poor academic performers and MD-wannabees are no longer present.

 

One other point you might wish to consider is that MGB is excellent preparation for graduate work, as mentioned by some other posters to this thread. You might not think you will go to graduate school, but life has a way of taking you in directions that you might not have anticipated. Remember, most applicants do not get accepted to medical school. Of course, I'm not suggesting going to graduate school if you do not want to. I realize this whole thing is a difficult decision for you. All I can say is that I went with what I was most interested in, and what provided my with what I predicted to be the most secondary options should I never apply to medicine or never gain acceptance. I went to graduate school wanting to be a scientist, so my experiences may be different than those of others.

 

My final advice is to be honest with your profs, but not volunteer. If you are seeking a summer research position, the interview is the time to let your career intentions be known, rather than be dishonest or deliberately vague. This is not just about maturity, it is also in your best interests. If you hand your prof an OMSAS reference letter after you told him/her you were interested in a scientific career, you will certainly not get a good reference! If during the interview the prof says they do not encourage or support medical-school-interested students (I know a prof who says that up-front), then say thank you for your time and find another prof.

 

Good luck with your decision. Let me know if I can be of any help.

 

BG

[Guest Pyrrolysine]

Medical School isn't gonna be any easier and completing a rigorous program such as MGB gives you a taste of getting through a difficult program and still earning a competitive GPA for any of the professional programs (for some students, of course). I do not feel that cutting corners and taking an easier way early on in university will benefit me in any way in the future. By the way, I checked with the American Medical Schools. I found out to my own delight that they do select students based on the level of difficulty of courses and it's strongly recommended that you take those courses.

 

Students in MGB,BCH,IMM have gotten into medical schools, that is a fact.

[Guest JSS02]

There's nothing wrong with going into MGB if you think it's the most interesting and enjoyable, want to have the best foundation for graduate studies, etc.. But don't pick it just because it's supposed to be "harder" and you think you'll look better to the schools. It's definitely not true here, and even in the States I'm betting the difference is negligible.

[Guest Boss]

Yes, I'd have to agree with JSS. I know that the Ontario Medical Schools don't care what program you do. In the States, there may be a difference, but very minute at that. If the Ontario schools cared what program you did, then they would surely care where you did your undergrad. (Note: I tend to think that the undergrad at UT is harder than at Mac/Western/York, etc. - maybe not Queen's). In that case, they should prefer students from UT. As we all know, they DON'T. Believe me, the Ontario medical schools don't care what program you've done.

 

You may here a lot of advice saying that you shouldn't shy away from the more difficult courses, blah blah blah blah... Listen, and listen well, you, I, and everyone here knows that your GPA is what counts. That is unless you've gone to Africa to help AIDS plagued children, won a Nobel Prize, or are next in line to succeed the Pope. If none of the aforementioned descriptions apply to you, then you know that your GPA is the biggest determining factor in your application. You know that, that's why you posed this question. You know that MGB may hinder your GPA, and thus, your chances of getting in to medical school. Am I correct?

 

If so, then you know what you should do. Hey, you don't have to switch all the way down to Human Biology - you can do Immunology, or something else. Just keep in mind that by not doing MGB, your GPA WILL be higher, and undergrad will be a lot easier. Some people will say that you're copping-out, or something. Do you really care? Right now, your goal is to get into Medical school. Focus on that.

 

BTW, I could better advise you if you told me whether you would consider pursuing graduate work.

[Guest Jay]

There will always be and currently are profs that are "anti-meds". I had a somewhat bitter health prof for a BIRD course with a capital B. He openly said he disliked "keeners" and med school types and preferred jocks like himself. He applied to med school and didn't get in way back when- so I have been told. The class had a very subjective participation mark that was worth a lot - jocks tended to get the highest marks with "keeners" at the low end.

 

Basically, I am trying to say that you will experience a general dislike for med keeners in almost any program due to the various stereotypes we are associated with.

[Guest Boss]

This is just an aside (Sorry)

 

Hey Meenah, are you Ismaili?

[Guest Pyrrolysine]

Medical School is just like an attempt to try to win the lottery, how many of us actually get in? What kind of jobs can you get with a Human Biology degree? (It's general and doesn't prepare you for the necessary job skills if you decide to be in science and most likely, you will).

By entering Human Biology, you are putting yourself at a risk of not getting into Medical School (which is harsh reality for 90% of the applicants because only the 10% get in) and possibly not being able to get a job either. Why jeopardize your future? Are you 100% confident you will get into medical school?

I recommend Immunology, Biochemistry, Molecular Genetics & Microbiology to people because these programs, although extreme in difficulty for some people, are the foundations of a future in graduate school should you not get into Medical School. There is a FUTURE.

My advice to you is just to do a good job with MGB, the more you listen to these people who put down MGB because they think it's so hard, the more you will fail. These people probably cannot handle the too advanced courses, they have to take several steps down for the easier ones. You never know, maybe you will do exceptionally well in your program. Just because others in your program didn't make it to medical school, it doesn't mean you will not.

[Guest Boss]

That's why I wanted to know whether she would actually consider doing graduate work. Some people think it's their only option if they don't get into Medical school. If you hate research, and don't think you'll ever do graduate work, then why take MGB? Human Biology is fine if you want to become a teacher, or dentist, etc. If, however, you would use graduate work as a "fall-back", then you shouldn't take Human Biology.

 

To Pyrrolysine: It sounds like you're knocking me. Well, I have a 4.0 CGPA from UT and I'm an 0T6. Regarding my apparent inability to handle the more difficult courses (just an example): my mark in BCH310 was 100%. BTW, I didn't take it in the summer!

 

Meenah: Anything and everything I've said has been my take on things. I've been in your situation, and I know what it's like. Hopefully, I've allowed you to see the situation from a different perspective from others. Pyrrolysine has his/her own views on the subject. Just make sure that you take a step back and look at the situation from all angles before you make your decision. I wish you the best of luck. Cheers!

[Guest BennyG]

Hi everyone,

 

I am absolutely against enrolling in the MGB undergraduate program as training for medical school, a desire to elevate yourself above other applicants by demonstrating that you can endure intellectual punishment, or in the belief that an admissions committee will apply some nebulous adjustment criteria to your lower MGB GPA compared to a Human Biology (hereafter, HB) graduate. The first reason carries unnecessary hardship, the second is a foolish expression of vanity and egotism that will not impress anyone, and no credible evidence supports the third reason.

 

It is difficult to imagine that admissions committees, which are already saturated with responsibility, have the resources to compile a ranking of difficult vs. simple undergraduate programs from numerous universities. Perhaps some faculties will scan your list of courses to ensure that "bird" courses are not over-represented, but it is much more doubtful that they would have a priori knowledge of the difficulty of specific courses and programs. Whose opinion would be consulted to determine the relative difficulty of various programs? The dean? The students? The faculty? Just hearsay and rumour?

 

HB is not as suitable as MGB/IMM/BCH for graduate training in the biomedical sciences, which is where a significant number of undergrads "do time" while re-applying to medical school. I would not claim that a HB graduate is incapable of finding decent employment, but not having the same opportunity to be employed in a research lab as a student who graduated from a more academically homogeneous program is a disadvantage. Unfortunately, you MUST think of a future that does not involve medicine. That is not intended to be insulting or discouraging, but merely acknowledges the reality that acceptance to medical school is the statistical rarity.

 

Of course, as I'm sure Boss would agree with, medical school acceptance may have the statistics of a lottery but is obviously not as random. All other factors held constant, a higher GPA is more likely to result in an acceptance. There is nothing wrong (in theory at least) with using strategy, as well as intelligence and good study habits, to maximize undergraduate GPA. For many people, this is the reason for choosing HB over MGB/IMM/etc. and it is difficult to blame them for that. But it is incorrect to assume that one's GPA will automatically fall in the MGB program. Here are some reasons:

 

1) Most third-year and all fourth-year MGB courses have small class sizes, therefore more access to the professor.

 

2) Unless you advertise otherwise (see my post above), it will be assumed that you are grad-school bound and so professors will be more willing to provide assistance and instruction.

 

3) Class averages RISE as the years go by in MGB. By fourth year, class averages have risen to B- or even B. This is in contrast to the med-school prerequisite (i.e. elimination) courses like BIO150Y or CHM240Y where the average is consistently locked in to a mid-60. Does one really learn more effectively in those huge classes? Do you want to be taking "intro" classes in third-year, which are still large and which also have an element of med-school elimination to them? In MGB, no professor or course is trying, consciously or subconsciously, to eliminate anyone.

 

An alternate option, that one of my friends used, was to stay enrolled in MGB until he was in a course that was jeopardizing his GPA. He did not plan this strategy initially, but when his first test came back for a given MGB course, he just dropped it and therefore defaulted into the HB program. Of course, he no longer had a full course-load and hence the U of T weighting formula did not apply, unless he picked up another course. I wouldn't recommend this as a first option, but all I'm saying with this example is that you are not absolutely stuck to MGB at all costs.

 

Good luck,

 

BG

 

 

P.S. Boss - you asked meenah if she was Ismaili. I assume you are, if you are asking the question. If so, what Jamat Khana do you attend? My best friend is Ismaili and he tells me that people in the community know each other well. I was wondering if you knew him. Let me know offline. Regards, BG.

[Guest JSS02]

You can still get into grad school with a human bio degree. The new, revised programs have lab and project course requirements (as far as I know), and that's what grad schools want to see. But it's also true that the people in the "old" HMB programs were at a disadvantage compared to others if they didn't pick courses with grad school in mind.

 

It's not like MGB, immunology, biochemistry and human bio are the only life science programs out there, by the way. Physiology, pharmacology, LMP, microbio, etc. are other good options. Many students have gotten into medicine from these programs, and of course you'll be fine for grad school as well.

 

If you really enjoy the MGB program there's nothing wrong with staying there. My friends who were in it said it was a great program. But make sure you're there for the right reasons (i.e. interest in the subject). It certainly doesn't increase your chances of getting into med school, and there are many other programs out there that provide just as good of an opportunity to do graduate work.

 

And no, choosing to do a program other than MGB/BCH/IMM does not make you "academically inferior" as Pyrrolysine quite pretentiously implies. Based on my experiences with IMM334, I probably would have enjoyed specializing in IMM, but I no longer considered speciailizing in MGB or BCH after talking to the undergraduate coordinator of biochemistry during my first year. He told me that MGB or BCH were for people interested in "hardcore science" rather than pre-meds. BTW, he was one of those "premed haters" mentioned by someone above - his negative attitude was certainly a turnoff for several people thinking about doing biochem. Meanwhile, the coordinators of physiology, pharmacology, and lab medicine told me that their programs were fine for many future pursuits, including medicine and graduate studies. Based on that info, I thought that one of these programs would be more suitable for me. I don't think that makes me less academically capable than someone who chose to enter MGB. However, I will also add that I was wrong for thinking back in first year that doing MGB or BCH would definitely screw you over. I know a few people in these programs who got in. So again, if you are enjoying the program and think you'll do fine, then stay there.

 

Good luck with your program and applying to med school, meenah. Same goes for you, Pyrollysine - though I wish you weren't so quick to judge such a large group of people you know next to nothing about.