bj89 Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 the prof i do research for is currently writing up an article that was composed of multiple experiments. although i didnt contribute to all of the experiments, i did contribute my entire last summer working on one of them and when i asked him whether or not me and my lab mate were getting our names on it, he said that journals don't like it when there are >5 authors... i tried a google search on the issue that didn't turn anything up, but is what he's saying true or is he BS'ing me? he said he would include our names in the "acknlowledgement" section, and if so does that even count for anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HBP Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 he's not going to include you he's going to include himself and the masters/phd students did you write any of the manuscript? or did you just do the experiment for your lab? if you didn't write any of the manuscript, you can't really expect to be an author. an acknowledgement isn't much but it's better than nothing (for med schools apps) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bj89 Posted August 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 he's not going to include you he's going to include himself and the masters/phd students did you write any of the manuscript? or did you just do the experiment for your lab? if you didn't write any of the manuscript, you can't really expect to be an author. an acknowledgement isn't much but it's better than nothing (for med schools apps) i didn't write any of the manuscript, but his lab has no masters or phD students... its just undergrads, but all i did was run one of the experiments (with the help of 2 other undergrads), which we spent our entire last summer working on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewfieMike Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 "journals don't like" doesn't make sense. sometimes labs do HUGE collaborations with massive numbers of authors. no big deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bj89 Posted August 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 "journals don't like" doesn't make sense. sometimes labs do HUGE collaborations with massive numbers of authors. no big deal that's what i thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaveSense Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 First of all, writing a manuscript is far less meaningful than generating the data that goes into a paper. I would NOT expect to be on the paper for writing parts of it while I WOULD if I did the experiments. There is a thing as authorship dilution. Basically, if you're primary author on a paper with alot of authors (not sure about the exact number but >5 seems reasonable?), it calls into question what your actual contribution to the project was. It is definately better for the primary author to have as few authors as possible on the paper. There are papers with large number of authors but those are HUGE projects (ie sequencing genomes). It is not completely BS what he's telling you (the numbers might be though). If you want to press the issue a bit more though, you'd have to actually point to which data you generated thats going into the paper. If you can say "hey look, I generated that data used in Figure X", then you for sure deserve (and are required) to get authorship on that paper. But if its more of a "I helped so and so do that experiment", it becomes more difficult to argue your way onto it. To me, it just sounds like he's trying to be nice and not say you didn't do enough to get on the paper. Also, acknowledgements mean next to nothing, we acknowledge people who gave us drugs or constructs or helped proof read our papers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewfieMike Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 as much as it seems unfair that those who write the manuscript get on the paper while those who do the grunt work do not, it happens an AWFUL lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beng Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 I think you have a right to be perturbed if you helped design the experiment. However, if you only followed a protocol and gathered data, then you didn't really add to the project. Ask yourself whether you've made a significant intellectual contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewfieMike Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 p.s. a lab with only undergrads? Sounds sketchy. Who are the other 5 authors then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microbiodude Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Here are the guidelines to who constitutes as an author. If you fit into any of them then you should have a case. http://www.icmje.org/#author "Acquisition of funding, collection of data, or general supervision of the research group alone does not constitute authorship." So as long as you interpreted your experiment and came to some significant conclusions about the results which are going to be included in the manuscript you should be an author. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopein2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 If I were you and the first thing I am going to do is to check the journal that the paper is going to submitted to. Second, I think it is important to negotiate with the professor. By the way, did you get paid to do the work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todpose Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 By the way, did you get paid to do the work? He did it for NSERC this summer. It seems like you only did scut work, that's probably why. You can't force the PI, so just give up and be glad you had at least some research experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todpose Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 he said he would include our names in the "acknlowledgement" section, and if so does that even count for anything?To give you an idea of its significance, during my thesis, I acknowledged an undergraduate on a paper simply because he came in and washed dishes for me five times a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOC_Ma Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 the prof i do research for is currently writing up an article that was composed of multiple experiments. although i didnt contribute to all of the experiments, i did contribute my entire last summer working on one of them and when i asked him whether or not me and my lab mate were getting our names on it, he said that journals don't like it when there are >5 authors... i tried a google search on the issue that didn't turn anything up, but is what he's saying true or is he BS'ing me? he said he would include our names in the "acknlowledgement" section, and if so does that even count for anything? He is BS'ing u, I realized a lot of professors do that, mine promised me to publish a few papers but now I finished 1 and he is postponing the publishing date indefinitely but at least I get to be a co-author even tho I did everything and wrote up the ****. But putting u under the acknowledgment section is such BS, its next to useless. Sorry to hear that, if u r not getting a reference from this guy u should probably argue for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todpose Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 But putting u under the acknowledgment section is such BS, its next to useless.Just send a link of this thread to his email. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bj89 Posted August 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 well it wasn't like we did grunt work or anything... i did get paid last summer when we worked on it, but we did spend the whole summer running this experiment (without the help of the prof)... he is writing me a reference letter so i guess that's a plus would i be able to include acknowledgements on the abs? he said he's including his statician who helped him do all the stats for the experiment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOC_Ma Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 well it wasn't like we did grunt work or anything... i did get paid last summer when we worked on it, but we did spend the whole summer running this experiment (without the help of the prof)... he is writing me a reference letter so i guess that's a plus would i be able to include acknowledgements on the abs? he said he's including his statician who helped him do all the stats for the experiment U can for sure include acknowledgment on your abs under research, however the weight of it is nothing compared to any kind of authorship, just let u know the weight, I have a paper proofread by another student for like 30 min then she is on my acknowledgment. My point is its not even worth mentioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopein2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 From my personal experience, it is hard to negotiate with the professor sometimes if you get the money directly from him/her. When it comes to money, it is ambiguous. Professors could say they own the data and you are just hired to do the work. in this case, you do not have much power. However, some other professors are pretty open for adding up the names of the authors who have been contribute to the work. One thing important is that some journals mention the people who have contribute significantly should be included in the paper. It is hard to define this sometimes. But some journals give clear explanation. It is reasonable to include the statistician in the paper. I think you should really talk to the professor directly and politely and explain to the professor why it is important to have your name on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awarepoint Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 It's hard to approach the issue with tact, if you are planning on working with the professor again. You don't want to compromise your reference letter if he hasn't already written if for you. I wonder though, is there such a big difference between having authorship on a paper, versus being the main data collector on an experiment -- which you can describe right in your resume, for the professor to verify if he was used as a reference? That experience should stand alone on your resume as being important, because a paper came directly out of the work you performed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microbiodude Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 It's hard to approach the issue with tact, if you are planning on working with the professor again. You don't want to compromise your reference letter if he hasn't already written if for you. I wonder though, is there such a big difference between having authorship on a paper, versus being the main data collector on an experiment -- which you can describe right in your resume, for the professor to verify if he was used as a reference? That experience should stand alone on your resume as being important, because a paper came directly out of the work you performed. perhaps...but the fact that you didn't get an authorship conveys that though your work was important, it wasn't important enough for you to be an author Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 technically, i'm pretty sure authors are supposed to have made a significant contribution to the interpretation of the data and/or write-up... now that's not to say that all authors have done this... many undergrads get on papers in which all they did was collect data, etc. (in fact this is often the case, though not always, outside of theses)... it all depends on the PI, how generous he/she is, how oldschool he/she is, etc... many profs are happy to put undergrads that helped in any way on the paper... many aren't though... it sounds like he is pretty stringent with who he puts on a paper... that's not to say you didn't signficantly contribute, but if you didn't significantly contribute with the interpretation/write-up, etc... it's really his call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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