U of T harder than Harvard??

[Guest cheech10]

"As for the students you say who got 90s in anthro and 70s in science, perhaps they are in the wrong field and would be much better suited to an arts program?"

 

This isn't my call to make, and that fact that you would suggest it based on one miniscule piece of evidence is quite rash.

[Guest UofT Student]

Its just a simple deduction, based on the evidence I see. Its not a declaration that they are doomed to fail in the field of science, or even that an arts program will be their saviour. Just like many things in this world, sometimes you're judged by so-called miniscule evidence. Look at the interviews for example.. do you think the interviewers can fully comprehend the complexity of each individual in 45 minutes with a set of standardized questions? And what if you're having a bad day, or didn't get good sleep, or you're nervous? Its not fair, but c'est la vie.

[Guest cheech10]

Knowing one mark in one course IS insufficient evidence for any deduction. And yeah, it happens at other times, but should we propagate the practice?

 

At any rate, the real issue was whether or not UofT was harder than Harvard, or any other school for that matter. Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only UofT student that found it manageable. I personally doubt other schools are significantly easier.

 

Edited to remove exaggeration.

[Guest J]

Didn't you say in the other thread "it sure is hard" in regards to U of T? Which is it then?

[Guest cheech10]

Well, it's challenging, but not as hard as some people make it out to be (and the easy part was an exaggeration). It certainly wasn't as hard as I thought it would be when I started, though.

 

At first, I was trying to point out that it is difficult, but when I hear others saying that it is the hardest life sci program, come on, that's just BS. If you haven't been elsewhere, you can't compare the schools. And making blanket statements makes one look foolish.

[Guest JD]

Yes U of T is challenging but definitely within reason. IMO, people who use the "I go to U of T" excuse for doing badly are just giving up on themselves rather than trying to find the real problem and how to solve it.

[Guest idiot]

I guess all of us can't be geniuses and get 5.0 GPAs on a scale of 4.0.

[Guest G]

I personally have not attended any other school, but from what I hear from other people, which I admit may not be reliable, is that both the workload and the difficulty is not the same as it is at UofT. Now, maybe those people have a different work ethic than I do, but when you look at some of the work they do, you realize that in most cases they would not be getting those marks at UofT, or McGill or UBC or many other schools for that matter. I am not saying that UofT is the hardest school in the world, but it sure isn't a walk in the park either.

[Guest Da Birdie]

The abundance of full-year courses in UofT also contributes to the elevated difficulty/workload when compared to schools that offer mainly half-courses. I'm not sure about other universities, but I know U of Calgary breaks all courses into half courses (eg organic chem, biochemistry, 1st & 2nd year bio, etc).

 

In UofT, esp. in 2nd/3rd year, as many finals are fully cumulative, those full-year courses can be a huge pain in the ass to study for (imagine a 40% exam testing you on all of enzymology, amino acid metabolism, nucleic acid metabolism, lipid/fat metabolism, and carbohydrate metabolism). 8o

 

When all those hard courses are semester-long, the finals do seem much more manageable~~

(maybe this is why UofT is beginning to break some first year courses into 2 half courses)

[Guest UofT Student]

I'm not saying that U of T is so much easier that if you're getting 90s, then you'll get 100s if you go anywhere else. All I'm suggesting is that maybe those with 90s at other schools might not be getting 90s if they were at U of T. But then again, its probably alot easier to get distracted at "party schools" like western, or schools where you don't need to try as hard to get a 90.

 

And cheech10, how can you say that its BS that U of T is the hardest life sci program? What evidence do you have to base THAT on? I have quite a bit of evidence for the opposite though. Not personal first-hand evidence, but from people I personally know.

 

I don't know if full year courses are the reason why the program is harder. Some of my half courses have a tendency to pack in all the material of a full year course. I think one problem with U of T, especially in the smaller more specialized science courses, is that they pick the professors based on reputation. Are they good researchers? Yes. Do they show boundless enthusiasm for their material? Definitely. Do they know how to present the material in a way conducive to learning and write relevant and fair tests? Hell no.

 

And cheech10: "Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only UofT student that found it manageable." Are you joking? There are so many U of T students who are up in that 3.9x and higher range, and not only that, they like to let people know about it. Just my personal experience. But whether they have a good personality and would make compassionate doctors is a potentially debatable point.

[Guest cheech10]

Unless one has attended many schools personally, I submit that they have no reliable evidence to compare the difficulty of schools. Your acquaintances may be in a position to judge this, but most of the posters on this board are not. Others have posted (see the High Schoolers READ thread) that they transferred to York and had no increase in marks. So with no conclusive evidence, this argument degenerates into a "my school is better than yours" discussion, and is wholly unproductive.

 

Look, my main objection is that other UofT students try to say that it's a hard school as a justification for their grades being lower than they would like. I've seen this at school, I've seen it on this board, and it disgusts me. Take responsibility for your performance, and stop whining about the school. Remember that you chose it, and you can transfer at any time if it doesn't suit you.

 

"Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only UofT student that found it manageable."

This was a reaction to the comments posted by other UofT students on this board, not the actual number of 3.9X students at UofT (of which there are many).

[Guest Ivy]

i attended an ivy (not harvard) for undergrad and the point is well taken that four courses is a full load. but you are missing a key point... one course may be equal to FOUR credits in the states. hence, you can take four courses per semester (which, in Canada, would equal only 12 credits) but in the states would equal 14. I took a 4-credit (one term) stats course in the US which was equivalent to a 6-credit (two term) in canada... we covered the same material.

 

I will admit, however, that the consensus is that ivy schools are difficult to get into but are easier to finish. We even said this during undergrad but then again, at my school, we said harvard and princeton were easier to get into (because of legay.) My canadian friends also said that his friends worked harder in canada. I will have to say that the caliber of the students is a little bit higher though in the states considering that they look at the "overall" student... not just getting over 80% averages...

 

ivy

[Guest Bontars]

It sickens me when people talk about how much better their school is than other schools. I hear it from Queens, U of T and sometimes McGill students. I go to Carleton (yes, where the 'k' stands for quality), and I would just love to go to the aforementioned schools and learn about the 'harder', more complex and intense science courses they offer.

Here at Carleton, the cell we learn about only has one organelle, all we learned in our Organic Chemistry class was how to draw a benzene ring without tracing it from a book, and we only have 1 half hour lab per semester. But at U of T, you learn about the 200 oganelles in the cell (175 of which are theoretical, but U of T students have to learn them because they're so smart), and you're organic chemistry classes span into the string theory and its applications in chemistry...

 

YA RIGHT!

You academic elitists make me sick, and I hope that all of you people that think you're all high and mighty because you went to U of T or whatever don't get into medical school because I don't want my future classmates to be arrogant morons, I want them to be NORMAL people from all walks of life who are grateful for the education they received in this fine country (where it doesn't cost an arm and a leg like in the US), REGARDLESS of where they received their degree. Remember, in Canada, the government subsidises all universities so they are all essentially the same thing- If they have a biology/physics/english program than it is because they met the stadards required to offer the program.

 

In the real world, nobody gives a flying f@#k about where you got your degree from or how smart that makes you, people notice personality and humility, which AREN'T taught in a school (well, except at U of T, where they have the best program in personality development management....)

 

Thats that.

[Guest queenzer]

Hi Carleton guy, I don't know specific about your school, but in my class now we got people who graduated from Laurentian and UofSask and they went through 4 years without making a presentation/seminar in front of the class. Easier does not necessarily mean the number of organelles, it could also do with test formats. Some schools have mostly easy m/c questions (choose the most correct answer) and other exams are much tougher (1=a,b,c 2=a,c 3=b,d 4=d 5=a,b,c,d). I guess it depends on the prof too but as far as I have heard less challenging schools may in fact not be asking for the toughest possible questions on the exams.

[Guest BCgirl]

Do you have lots of multiple choice exams in science classes?

[Guest queenzer]

In the first 2 years the exams were mostly M/C apparently because there were too many students in those classes. Essay stuff were predominant in the upper years though. How are things like in BC (or East coast, if you're that one from Dal)

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi guys,

 

On test formats, (chucking this one in for fun), I took a third year microbiology course at UT a few years ago where 100% of our tests were multiple choice, but 1/3 to 1/2 of the test sections were comprised of a special type of multiple choice question--get this: true/false format. (Incidentally, I noticed yesterday while perusing the latest UT course offerings that that prof is no longer teaching the course.)

 

Really, it seems pretty close to impossible to judge which/what/who is toughest and which/what/who is not when it comes to universities/programs/courses/profs. In this case, subjectivity puts a bit of a crimp on things.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest LanceH]

Seriously,

 

All that stuff about UT being the hardest school in Canada is BS!

 

There are tons of tough schools in Canada.

My friend's dad did his Doctoral degree at McGill after doing his undergrad at UBC(Chemistry) and he said that McGill's program is WAY more challenging that UBCs.

 

In terms of life science, all the big schools have tough programs--Mac, Guelph, UT, UBC, Western, and McGill.

And Yes, UfT Student, all those schools have Orgo Chem in 1st year(it's not just the "innovative" UT chem dept that offers orgo chem in 1st year!)

[Guest guest]

I am not trying to say that UofT is the best school, but covering 8 lectures of organic chemistry vs. a half course are obviously quite different.

[Guest doubledragon]

hmm, well it's great that your friend's dad got a PhD at McGill, but is he in a good position to critique the undergrad program that he's never attended? We can only speculate if certain schools are easier, but perhaps the only scientific way is to get twins to go to different schools and see which one does better

[Guest Liana]

To be fair, I think the comparative level of difficulty of each school is partly dependent on the individual, not solely on the school itself.

 

My understanding is that the curriculum at schools like U of T is not necessarily harder than anywhere else, nor are the exam questions necessarily more challenging, but that U of T certainly doesn't offer as many resources to promote academic success as are offered at other schools, such as the only school I know, Guelph. Guelph has been criticized on these forums as being a supposedly "easier" school, but it's clear that our grads perform equally well in medical school and other venues as grads from anywhere else in Canada. The difference at Guelph is that all professors are willing and eager to see students, even in 1st level courses, no matter how moronic the question may be. Teaching assistants are probably more accessible than the average Canadian TA, and other resources are available like first year Supported Learning Group tutoring sessions, residence-based study groups and a strong Centre for Students with Disabilities that can help people with learning disabilities, among other things, to level the academic playing field. However, Guelph has its own challenging aspects, including a semester that is about 2 weeks shorter than most other Canadian schools, in which the same material must be learned. (We have only 12 weeks of classes and no break before exams begin).

 

Your success at a particular school depends on the matching of your academic strengths with the style of teaching of that school. For instance, a lot of Guelph's courses have presentation or project components, in addition to major exams. For someone who thrives in that sort of academic atmosphere, that will translate to good marks, but for someone who prefers to merely answer exam questions, Guelph's style of teaching probably won't be the most enjoyable.

 

 

As for the American education system: From my understanding of things, and be aware that this is merely an outsider's perspective, taken from secondhand stories and speculation, the American education system tends to be more focused on dividing the liberal arts from the hardcore sciences. Several graduates of American grad schools with whom I have spoken seem convinced that the Canadian undergrad system produces more well-rounded students, whereas many American Ivy Leaguers classify you into either a liberal arts program or a stringent science program.

[Guest BCgirl]

hi queenzer,

 

The courses that I took that had mcq tests were mainly first year courses. My first year bio tests were multiple choice and some first year arts courses (like intro to sociology, psychology, etc). For the most part, my science courses have not had mulitiple choice tests (like chemistry courses, physics) except for maybe a portion of the tests in some classes (part of cell bio tests, part of physics, etc).

 

It sounds pretty similar to yours. The courses with multiple choice exams were mainly the bigger ones since the tests are easier to mark.