More US medical schools

[silvermen85]

....and hence less residency spots for foreign grads

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/education/15medschools.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

[Rach]

Am I wrong in thinking this article doesn't apply to us (those of us choosing US schools)? I was always under the impression that we wouldn't be considered FMGs so we'd still get preference as US grads (though less than US citizens with US MDs, since they have citizenship). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[moo]

You will definitely get preference. However, one of the reasons I came back to Canada was that it is very difficult to secure the coveted H1b visa. If you say you want the J1 visa, you are almost on equal footing with US grads for most programs but however, the catch is you have to return to Canada for two years after residency before being able to return to the US.

[keith_015]

You will definitely get preference. However, one of the reasons I came back to Canada was that it is very difficult to secure the coveted H1b visa. If you say you want the J1 visa, you are almost on equal footing with US grads for most programs but however, the catch is you have to return to Canada for two years after residency before being able to return to the US.

 

Unless you are willing to go for the J1 waiver. It is something I would consider if I would do rural meds anyways. And yeah, from what I have read Rach, US allo's have top pickings. There is never a mention on nationality - simply US allo.

 

Edit: As a side note from this article, maybe Canada should take a page from the US book and allow private institutions to open up. Also in regards to more applicants/residency spot, even though more MD programs will open up, I'm sure the squeezing out will also include DO's when up against US MD's.

[Rach]

You will definitely get preference. However, one of the reasons I came back to Canada was that it is very difficult to secure the coveted H1b visa. If you say you want the J1 visa, you are almost on equal footing with US grads for most programs but however, the catch is you have to return to Canada for two years after residency before being able to return to the US.

 

I figured the opening of med schools really doesn't make a difference in terms of our residency chances and mostly affects Caribbean and Intl grads. But the visa issue seems like a pain.

It would be really hard to decide between requesting either visa considering I do not want to return to Canada, but I also want the best chances for residency. I guess I'll cross that bridge in a few. Thanks for the replies moo and keith.

[keith_015]

I figured the opening of med schools really doesn't make a difference in terms of our residency chances and mostly affects Caribbean and Intl grads. But the visa issue seems like a pain.

It would be really hard to decide between requesting either visa considering I do not want to return to Canada, but I also want the best chances for residency. I guess I'll cross that bridge in a few. Thanks for the replies moo and keith.

 

Yeah Rach...we'll have to see what happens in 4 years as to whether or not any schools will offer H1B, and/or will Obama make it easier for foreigners under some offshoot of health care reform. Visas definitely have to be besides financing, one of the biggest pains long term.

[moo]

Unless you are willing to go for the J1 waiver. It is something I would consider if I would do rural meds anyways. And yeah, from what I have read Rach, US allo's have top pickings. There is never a mention on nationality - simply US allo.

 

Edit: As a side note from this article, maybe Canada should take a page from the US book and allow private institutions to open up. Also in regards to more applicants/residency spot, even though more MD programs will open up, I'm sure the squeezing out will also include DO's when up against US MD's.

 

It's very difficult to open up a private school. The training of a single MD costs somewhere between 150-200K a year so that 40-50K you pay only partially pays for the cost of training an MD. US privates have a ton of money (think Harvard, Hopkins, etc.) but are still largely not-for-profit schools. To open up a private school in Canada, you'd have to have a private university that's already established willing to do so but Canadian privates tend to be very small and don't have a lot of money.

[keith_015]

It's very difficult to open up a private school. The training of a single MD costs somewhere between 150-200K a year so that 40-50K you pay only partially pays for the cost of training an MD. US privates have a ton of money (think Harvard, Hopkins, etc.) but are still largely not-for-profit schools. To open up a private school in Canada, you'd have to have a private university that's already established willing to do so but Canadian privates tend to be very small and don't have a lot of money.

 

The idea should maybe be addressed/pondered though. If students are willing to fork out 50k USD plus in tuition in the US, maybe there might be some kind of incentive to let students pay that here and get more spots open with privately managed schools. Might mean they'd have to build a private hospital and recoup some costs through it's operations and funnel it into education, but it could be a nice step. I'm sure the gov't would provide some support to such a venture. Someday maybe...

[bannie22]

You will definitely get preference. However, one of the reasons I came back to Canada was that it is very difficult to secure the coveted H1b visa. If you say you want the J1 visa, you are almost on equal footing with US grads for most programs but however, the catch is you have to return to Canada for two years after residency before being able to return to the US.

 

Okay moo, you gotta teach me more about this.

 

Say I am a Malaysian citizen (not Canadian)

 

I go to the states for my MD, can I do residency there?

Or do I have to do extra years in rural med or something? tahts just random!

[trickybox]

Hey moo,

 

I'm just wondering with the whole J1 and H1B visa issues, do most Canadians graduating from US allos apply to a ton of residency positions (especially for more competitive specialties like radonc or ortho surg)? And how do we determine whether or not residency programs give out the H1B visa, do we ask each program individually? Finally, do programs that generally don't give out H1B visas change their minds (which I'm guessing is a ton of paperwork and money) especially post-interview if they find that they really want you in the program?

[moo]

Okay moo, you gotta teach me more about this.

 

Say I am a Malaysian citizen (not Canadian)

 

I go to the states for my MD, can I do residency there?

Or do I have to do extra years in rural med or something? tahts just random!

 

Should be no problem. Procedure for Canadians and Malaysians are the same.

[moo]

Hey moo,

 

I'm just wondering with the whole J1 and H1B visa issues, do most Canadians graduating from US allos apply to a ton of residency positions (especially for more competitive specialties like radonc or ortho surg)? And how do we determine whether or not residency programs give out the H1B visa, do we ask each program individually? Finally, do programs that generally don't give out H1B visas change their minds (which I'm guessing is a ton of paperwork and money) especially post-interview if they find that they really want you in the program?

 

It depends on your overall package. If you've got a strong application you should be ok, but you have to be prepared to go to a smaller school or a no name program. I find that Canadians generally match either at awesome places, or at no name places. The other thing you need to keep in mind is the timing of the Canadian and US matches. I'm not sure how it is now (I think generally Canadian match is before US match) but when I applied, I had to choose whether I wanted to run the Canadian match or not. If I ran it and I matched in Canada, that was it, I was obligated to come back to Canada. If I withdraw from Carms, and run NRMP, I am obviously going to match in the US. For me, I had decided I wanted to do primary care/public health in Canada (such programs, called Preventive Medicine (usually it's done after a primary care specialty) exist in the US but salary in the US for primary care and public health were too low to make me want to stay in the US). Thus it was a no brainer for me to just run the Canadian match and use the US match as a back-up.

 

As for the H1 thing, you have to ask each program individually. DOn't bother applying if they don't offer it. Prelim years don't matter (some residency programs, like anesthesia, derm, etc require a prelim or transitional year, or an intern year. This can be done anywhere and you don't need a visa for this year as you just apply for an F1 extension. You apply for this year the same time as the other residency program but you obviously would start the actual residency program the year after you finish your intern year).

 

Very few programs will change their mind post interview. If they don't offer an H1, 99% of the time they won't change their mind. So don't even bother.

[trickybox]

It depends on your overall package. If you've got a strong application you should be ok, but you have to be prepared to go to a smaller school or a no name program. I find that Canadians generally match either at awesome places, or at no name places. The other thing you need to keep in mind is the timing of the Canadian and US matches. I'm not sure how it is now (I think generally Canadian match is before US match) but when I applied, I had to choose whether I wanted to run the Canadian match or not. If I ran it and I matched in Canada, that was it, I was obligated to come back to Canada. If I withdraw from Carms, and run NRMP, I am obviously going to match in the US. For me, I had decided I wanted to do primary care/public health in Canada (such programs, called Preventive Medicine (usually it's done after a primary care specialty) exist in the US but salary in the US for primary care and public health were too low to make me want to stay in the US). Thus it was a no brainer for me to just run the Canadian match and use the US match as a back-up.

 

As for the H1 thing, you have to ask each program individually. DOn't bother applying if they don't offer it. Prelim years don't matter (some residency programs, like anesthesia, derm, etc require a prelim or transitional year, or an intern year. This can be done anywhere and you don't need a visa for this year as you just apply for an F1 extension. You apply for this year the same time as the other residency program but you obviously would start the actual residency program the year after you finish your intern year).

 

Very few programs will change their mind post interview. If they don't offer an H1, 99% of the time they won't change their mind. So don't even bother.

 

Thanks for that moo, it's nice to have a premed101 member who's so much more experienced and knowledgeable willing to hang around answering our questions.

 

So say you get into a residency program like anesthesia where you apply for that F1 extension and do the intern year. Do you have to go through that whole process of the J1 or H1B visa issue again? Or are you then able to practice in the states without coming back to Canada regardless of your visa?

[moo]

Thanks for that moo, it's nice to have a premed101 member who's so much more experienced and knowledgeable willing to hang around answering our questions.

 

So say you get into a residency program like anesthesia where you apply for that F1 extension and do the intern year. Do you have to go through that whole process of the J1 or H1B visa issue again? Or are you then able to practice in the states without coming back to Canada regardless of your visa?

 

Well you can only extend your F1 for one year (there's a special name for that that allows you to work and get paid which I forget). The advantage of that over caribbean and other Canadian IMGs is that you have that one year to do the paperwork for the H1 (or so I was told). But you'd have to make sure the institution where you're doing your residency is going to sponsor you.

[keith_015]

Commenting on moo about CaRMS/NRMP: CaRMS has been for the past few years and for the unforeseeable future matching before NRMP, so if you apply to both and match in Canada, you will be dropped by NRMP as per mutual agreement.

 

For all unaware about the J1 process, once you are done you have to return to your home country for 2 years. You cannot go from J1 to H1B at any time. For Canadians, I believe you have to get a letter from the provincial health authority something like "letter of need" to get the J1. The J1 waiver is possible if you plan on staying in the US under either of the following conditions:

 

* Request by a designated State Department of Public Health or its equivalent' date=' CONRAD:[/b']

 

Pursuant to the requirements of Public Law 103-416, a foreign medical graduate who has an offer of full-time employment at a health care facility in a designated health care professional shortage area or at a health care facility which serves patients from such a designated area, and agrees to begin employment at that facility within 90 days of receiving such a waiver, and who signs a contract to continue to work at that health care facility for a total of 40 hours per week and for not less than three years, may apply for a waiver under this basis.

 

The EV must first apply with a state public health department which is allowed to request 30 such waivers per federal fiscal year. Five of the thirty requests may be for EV physicians who will serve at a facility which may not be located within a designated area but serves patients who live within a designated health care professional shortage area. The state public health department will forward the Conrad requests directly to the Waiver Review Division if agrees to sponsor the EV for such a waiver.

 

Note: Only foreign medical doctors who received their J-1 status to pursue graduate medical education or training may apply for a waiver under this basis.

 

* Request by an interested government agency (IGA):

 

If an exchange visitor is working on a project for or of interest to a U.S. Federal Government agency, and that agency has determined that the visitor's departure for two years to fulfill the INA 212(e) requirement will be detrimental to its interest, that agency may request an interested government agency waiver on behalf of the EV for sake of public interest. The IGA request must be signed by the head of the agency or its designee and submitted directly to the Waiver Review Division. The EV has the responsibility for obtaining an IGA request from a U.S. Federal Government agency.

 

Note: For IGA applications on behalf of foreign physicians, who agree to serve in medically under-served areas, please refer to Federal Register Volume 62, No. 102 of May 28, 1997.

 

Meaning you will be likely a rural area, although I believe even Buffalo is under HPSA designation.

 

Edit: I suggest you all read http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/info/info_1288.html if you are planning on residency in the US

[bannie22]

Commenting on moo about CaRMS/NRMP: CaRMS has been for the past few years and for the unforeseeable future matching before NRMP, so if you apply to both and match in Canada, you will be dropped by NRMP as per mutual agreement.

 

For all unaware about the J1 process, once you are done you have to return to your home country for 2 years. You cannot go from J1 to H1B at any time. For Canadians, I believe you have to get a letter from the provincial health authority something like "letter of need" to get the J1. The J1 waiver is possible if you plan on staying in the US under either of the following conditions:

 

 

 

Meaning you will be likely a rural area, although I believe even Buffalo is under HPSA designation.

 

Edit: I suggest you all read http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/info/info_1288.html if you are planning on residency in the US

 

mod can we sticky this??

 

 

so keith, ur saying that we cant go from MD to a good residency, but must go do some rural work for 2 years?

[keith_015]

mod can we sticky this??

 

 

so keith, ur saying that we cant go from MD to a good residency, but must go do some rural work for 2 years?

 

No no. You can go from MD to a good residency no problem. It is whether or not you want to stay after.

 

For you it might be a little bit messy as you are Malaysian. If you don't get an H1B, you would have to get a letter from Malaysia to state need for you to get the J1. After your residency though, you would have to leave the US and go back to Malaysia, unless you do the J1 waiver (which is the rural thing). You probably could go back to Canada on visa I'm sure.

 

If you get an H1B, you would be allowed to stay in the US ie find work right after residency anywhere (urban/rural) in the US and renew/change your current H1B. Having the H1B is a good first step for PR.

[bannie22]

No no. You can go from MD to a good residency no problem. It is whether or not you want to stay after.

 

For you it might be a little bit messy as you are Malaysian. If you don't get an H1B, you would have to get a letter from Malaysia to state need for you to get the J1. After your residency though, you would have to leave the US and go back to Malaysia, unless you do the J1 waiver (which is the rural thing). You probably could go back to Canada on visa I'm sure.

 

If you get an H1B, you would be allowed to stay in the US ie find work right after residency anywhere (urban/rural) in the US and renew/change your current H1B. Having the H1B is a good first step for PR.

 

WOW THIS is so complicated. I should be getting my permanent residency for Canada soon.

 

But then they require me to stay for like 1 or 2 years so that I can become a citizen, or else I lose my PR too i think.

 

So i have to delay that.

so i guess after residency ill come back to live for 1-2 years before decidin where to go to.

 

wow. man. way too complicated.

thanks for all the info guys

 

can u dual us and canadian citizenship?

or Canadian and US PR?

that wud be much better

[keith_015]

WOW THIS is so complicated. I should be getting my permanent residency for Canada soon.

 

But then they require me to stay for like 1 or 2 years so that I can become a citizen, or else I lose my PR too i think.

 

So i have to delay that.

so i guess after residency ill come back to live for 1-2 years before decidin where to go to.

 

wow. man. way too complicated.

thanks for all the info guys

 

can u dual us and canadian citizenship?

or Canadian and US PR?

that wud be much better

 

Green cards are elusive. For many it takes a lot of time to get one. Easiest way is probably through marriage.

Green cards are awarded through marriage, having IMMEDIATE family sponsoring from the US, being an exceptional person that would help out the US as a whole, through massive investment, models, exceptional athletes OR the big one: JOB SPONSORSHIP which would require you to get H1B first. If it were as easy as Canada, the US would be flooded with people.

Getting US Citizenship comes after green card, so many of us wouldn't be able to think of that for probably 10-15 years or so.

 

One question moo might be able to answer. If after you do residency on a J1, would you be able to work under a TN visa during the 2 years following?

 

Edit: found the answer which is yes, but only if you are a physician in a teaching or research role.

[mystery_chick]

WOW THIS is so complicated. I should be getting my permanent residency for Canada soon.

 

But then they require me to stay for like 1 or 2 years so that I can become a citizen, or else I lose my PR too i think.

 

So i have to delay that.

so i guess after residency ill come back to live for 1-2 years before decidin where to go to.

 

wow. man. way too complicated.

thanks for all the info guys

 

can u dual us and canadian citizenship?

or Canadian and US PR?

that wud be much better

 

From my understanding, you can only hold dual citizenship if you first get your US citizenship and then get Canadian citizenship, not the other way around. I think the US requires you to give up all of your other citizenships when being naturalized.

 

My question is, say you get your J1 and you come back to Canada to work for 2 years (what kind of hospital would only take you for two years?wtf?) if you plan on going back to the US would you have to find a job, have them sponsor you for the H1B visa or can you just go and work with a J1 visa?

 

ETA: I just got all the stuff about visas from Vandy today ironically and I'm tres confused

[moo]

Not true, you can get dual citizenship if you are Canadian and get US citizenship. Technically it's not supposed to be allowed, but most people turn a blind eye. Think of all the Canadian hockey players that have dual citizenship (Marty Brodeur, Steve Yzerman, etc).

[mystery_chick]

Not true, you can get dual citizenship if you are Canadian and get US citizenship. Technically it's not supposed to be allowed, but most people turn a blind eye. Think of all the Canadian hockey players that have dual citizenship (Marty Brodeur, Steve Yzerman, etc).

 

Hmmmmm this is interesting to know....

 

Is there any downsides to having dual citizenship? And if not, why do I not know more people who are dual citizens? lol

[moo]

Hmmmmm this is interesting to know....

 

Is there any downsides to having dual citizenship? And if not, why do I not know more people who are dual citizens? lol

 

Really? I knew a few in med school who were dual.

 

The only real downside is that you have to file tax returns in both countries. However, you don't get double taxed.

[Rach]

 

One question moo might be able to answer. If after you do residency on a J1, would you be able to work under a TN visa during the 2 years following?

Edit: found the answer which is yes, but only if you are a physician in a teaching or research role.

 

It's weird that there would be such limitations for a TN visa (especially with such needed and useful skills of physicians). My sister and I both easily got TN visas after university simply by getting jobs relating to our university degree. No specific restrictions.

[keith_015]

From my understanding, you can only hold dual citizenship if you first get your US citizenship and then get Canadian citizenship, not the other way around. I think the US requires you to give up all of your other citizenships when being naturalized.

 

My question is, say you get your J1 and you come back to Canada to work for 2 years (what kind of hospital would only take you for two years?wtf?) if you plan on going back to the US would you have to find a job, have them sponsor you for the H1B visa or can you just go and work with a J1 visa?

 

ETA: I just got all the stuff about visas from Vandy today ironically and I'm tres confused

 

Not true Rach. US policy doesn't forbid dual citizenship, but they don't encourage it. It is possible to "Naturalize in the US and not lose the citizenship of the country of birth". How will they put you on up for transcription when you can dart off to another country? Source: http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=bd710952c80c1210VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=909b42fc971b1210VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD

 

After going back to Canada, you would have to re-enter under H1B after being sponsored yes. J1 is an "exchange" Visa. You can only work on a J1 for med school training.

 

Go to http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1286.html . You will see physician on the list. Click on J and H1B to read up on them to get a better understanding of what each one permits.