CaRMS Journey

[sarakj]

Hello all, I just thought to review some tips and share my personal experience going through the match this yr! These are the qs I was asked from couple of people through PM:

 

1. Elective plan: I did all my 10 wks pre-CaRMs in radiology and all in Ontario schools. However, I had tons of electives through out med school in different areas other than radiology to explore things and show that I was making an informed decision. Again, do what u like to do ..As long as u have a few radiology elective in key school you should be fine.

 

2. LOR : personally I had one from an Internist and two radiologists.. One of my radiology letter was from home school and I got the 2nd one from the schools I did my elective. This was a bit tricky to not over do things and still get a good letter! Use ur social skills! If not, one from a surgical rotation should be fine. I used a FM letter for the schools I did not do electives! When u are getting a letter, please do not be shy! Kindly asked them if they are feeling comfortable for a Gold letter.. As soon as u see eye rolling.. U know ur answer..

 

3. Basic science grade! It is important if u have a H/P system.. If not they might look at the comments regarding ur nomination for the highest mark in ur class , if the system exist! For competitive residency every thing matters!

 

4. Clinical rotation: I would say this is the most important factor in the initial screening! PDs want to see u care for ur patients, u take responsibilities, u respect other health care providers! In Ottawa we have a system that they nominate students at the end of each block and some will receive awards at the end of 3rd yr.. This would be an asset to have if you have the same type of system as ur school! So , if u do not have a very strong grades from the first two yrs, do not give up.. Work harder during clerkship! Go extra step to help ur team! I know one person in my class who matched into radiology program with no mark higher than 80..

 

5. Research! It depends on the school u r looking for. For example, I know an applicant who got to Mac without ANY research in radiology, though she has some summer research project in other medical field! Some programs are more picky that others in regards to the extend of research. My advice is to start doing some research project during the summer of first and second yr and narrow it to toward ur program of interest during third yr. One good LOR from your research supervisor will be very helpful. And yes, it is possible to do research during clerkship.!!!! Maybe you have cut down some of the other things u enjoy for a few months. I guess it I will pay off at the end!

 

6. EC's: important to show you can live your life and manage stress while studying. Also, you have more interesting stuff to talk about during your interview

 

 

I guess that is it for now ! if you have any more specific qs, feel free to send a PM! I will be away for the moth of June though !

[Guest viscous]

Hello all, I just thought to review some tips and share my personal experience going through the match this yr! These are the qs I was asked from couple of people through PM:

 

1. Elective plan: I did all my 10 wks pre-CaRMs in radiology and all in Ontario schools. However, I had tons of electives through out med school in different areas other than radiology to explore things and show that I was making an informed decision. Again, do what u like to do ..As long as u have a few radiology elective in key school you should be fine.

 

2. LOR : personally I had one from an Internist and two radiologists.. One of my radiology letter was from home school and I got the 2nd one from the schools I did my elective. This was a bit tricky to not over do things and still get a good letter! Use ur social skills! If not, one from a surgical rotation should be fine. I used a FM letter for the schools I did not do electives! When u are getting a letter, please do not be shy! Kindly asked them if they are feeling comfortable for a Gold letter.. As soon as u see eye rolling.. U know ur answer..

 

3. Basic science grade! It is important if u have a H/P system.. If not they might look at the comments regarding ur nomination for the highest mark in ur class , if the system exist! For competitive residency every thing matters!

 

4. Clinical rotation: I would say this is the most important factor in the initial screening! PDs want to see u care for ur patients, u take responsibilities, u respect other health care providers! In Ottawa we have a system that they nominate students at the end of each block and some will receive awards at the end of 3rd yr.. This would be an asset to have if you have the same type of system as ur school! So , if u do not have a very strong grades from the first two yrs, do not give up.. Work harder during clerkship! Go extra step to help ur team! I know one person in my class who matched into radiology program with no mark higher than 80..

 

5. Research! It depends on the school u r looking for. For example, I know an applicant who got to Mac without ANY research in radiology, though she has some summer research project in other medical field! Some programs are more picky that others in regards to the extend of research. My advice is to start doing some research project during the summer of first and second yr and narrow it to toward ur program of interest during third yr. One good LOR from your research supervisor will be very helpful. And yes, it is possible to do research during clerkship.!!!! Maybe you have cut down some of the other things u enjoy for a few months. I guess it I will pay off at the end!

 

6. EC's: important to show you can live your life and manage stress while studying. Also, you have more interesting stuff to talk about during your interview

 

 

I guess that is it for now ! if you have any more specific qs, feel free to send a PM! I will be away for the moth of June though !

 

Hi, how are students nominated for these awards? Do the students submit applications or they are nominated by the staff? What is the exact criteria for these awards? While doing the rotations, how can we know that we are meeting the requirements necessary to get these awards? Converse with the evaluators if we are "on the track?" By "at ottawa," do you mean Uottawa?

Thank you.

[sarakj]

Hi Sarah! regarding point number 3, My school doesn't have an H/P/F system and so do the vast majority now. How does this affect residency at all? I thought it was largely determined by performance in third and fourth year.

 

If there is no H system then I think they will mention in your MSPR if u got the highest mark in that block! As I have mentioned the most important part of application is clinical rotations and comments!

[Guest viscous]

Hi, how are students nominated for these awards? Do the students submit applications or they are nominated by the staff? What is the exact criteria for these awards? While doing the rotations, how can we know that we are meeting the requirements necessary to get these awards? Converse with the evaluators if we are "on the track?" By "at ottawa," do you mean Uottawa?

Thank you.

 

bumpity bump.

[monkey799]

Agree with above.

 

In any competitive residency, all parts of your applications are carefully scrutinized, with emphasis on grades, clinical performance and reference letter that documents your work ethic and clinical ability. Strong research and/or MD-PHD is a an asset, but will not make up for poor grades or clinical performance.

 

If a school is pass / fail, then PDs want to see academic awards and scholarships showing candidates are in the top brackets of their class.

 

Programs in radiology typically receive 100-150 or more applications, and can only select 20-30 for most programs, up to around 40 for large school like UBC or U of T, for interview.

 

In reality, if you are an average or below average applicant on paper, you'll probably need someone in the program to root for you to get an interview and have some chance of matching.

 

If you are a top applicant, then performing well on interview is the only other hurdle. You want be at least ranked in the top 1/3-1/2 of interviewed applicants at multiple programs to have good chance of matching. I've seen a few strong candidates on paper, with 6-8 interviews, ended up not matching because they were ranked below average in their interviews.

[Guest viscous]

That's interesting. I was almost convinced that those awards were far and few in between such that a lot of students getting top grades aren't going to end up with one, because there is always that one student who does basically nothing in terms of ECs/observorships but chooses to study instead.

 

yea I am curious about that too. And probably each course would have one such award and it becomes tough to beat that one gunner who is acing all his courses because he had prior medical knowledge, has other resources to prep for exams, and does nothing else except studying.

[sarakj]

The most important thing is to make connections and network. Even if you are a top applicant, you won't have a lock on a spot if there isn't someone big gunning for you.

 

This should be the first class taught in med school. NETW 1010: how to connect with malcontented physicians enough for them to propel your career.

 

I do not agree with this statement! I did not know anyone at U of T other than a reg staff that did a few weeks of elective! I think this an old myth that connection is the answer! Yes, if u have some to say good things about you helps but not enough to get into competetive residency! So I just do not what applicants to get discouraged by these type of myths!

[lostintime]

I think the academic brilliance/awards/scholarship thing is overrated. Even for a block, ONE person gets it. Does that mean >99% of the class is automatically considered academically "un-brilliant" just because of no awards? I highly doubt it.

 

I haven't gone through cARMs, what do I know, but it just fails logic that all committees are on the lookout for this because frankly there is only like what 5 people in each year who get block awards (AT MOST, usually it's the same person anyway), and there isn't enough of them to go around to all the "best programs" and who is saying they even want the most highly competitive programs anyway.

 

I think what brings out your strengths are reference letters with reference to your standings relative to the class. Not pre-clerkship awards so I'm not stressing out because I'm not the top <1% of my class. Because >99% of my class isn't either, and I doubt we're all doomed.

[tooty]

^^ yeah I was thinking the same thing. But I think what Sara was pointing out with her entire post is that everything matters for a residency as competitive as radiology. So if you gun for the top marks, even if you don't make it, you'll still end up with a decent application. Whereas if you don't even try, you'll end up being just mediocre, which won't cut if for rads.

[JCTulip]

re: awards

 

there are a lot of awards in medical school, some are given for top 5 people in the block, some for given for top 10 overall marks, some are given for outstanding contribution to the course or clinical service team etc

 

I'd estimate 20-30% of med students receive some sorts of awards during their 3-4 years of medical school

 

of course there are those who get award year after year - and they will stand out

 

it will help if you are in and h/p/f program - and to get as many Hs on your transcript as possible; I personally think it's relatively easier to collect Hs than to collect awards, which are often subjective and in some way relies on how much people like you

 

it is unfortunate that Canada does not have standardized exam taken at med2 like the USMLE, so that PDs have something objective to differentiate applicants to select the top 25% for interview.

 

It's interesting to note that in the US, the average USMLE for US med school applicants to match at rads program is somewhere bet/ 240-245 - which probably the highest or 2nd highest of all specialties.

 

re: reference letter

 

this is definitely another way to show where you are relative to your classmates.

 

often the clinician will write "John Smith is definitely in the top 10% of all students I've worked with in the past 25 years" - and this kind of comment will be most helpful to the admission committee

 

depending on the tone of the letter, words like "good student" could actually be interpreted as below average; and "excellent" interpreted as average

 

this holds true for clerkship evaluation comments and MSPR

 

re: connection

 

it certainly helps if you have someone on the inside to root for you, esp if you are average or below average on paper.

 

doing research with people on the selection committee is one way to build connection, but also other things like having family friends who are rads etc

 

as sara alluded, if you are in the top brackets of applicants with >7-8 interviews, it doesn't matter, because as long as you also do well on interview, you'll be ranked high enough to match somewhere, or even ranked to match at many programs

 

lastly, as many people already know, females tend to interact better at electives and interviews, and tends to be able to secure better reference letter on a short 2-week rad elective. While no program has explicitly spelled it out, I believe there is shortage of female radiology residents across the country, and it will be more advantageous to be a female applicant than male - something already proven by CaRMS reports year after year.

[sarakj]

Hi, how are students nominated for these awards? Do the students submit applications or they are nominated by the staff? What is the exact criteria for these awards? While doing the rotations, how can we know that we are meeting the requirements necessary to get these awards? Converse with the evaluators if we are "on the track?" By "at ottawa," do you mean Uottawa?

Thank you.

 

Well, in uottawa, students do not have a role in nominations and awards. At the end of each rotation, the clinical preceptors will nominate their strongest student for the award. At the end of the third years, one of the nominated students will win the award. The nomination is as valuable as getting the award.

Hope that helps

[sarakj]

I think the academic brilliance/awards/scholarship thing is overrated. Even for a block, ONE person gets it. Does that mean >99% of the class is automatically considered academically "un-brilliant" just because of no awards? I highly doubt it.

 

I haven't gone through cARMs, what do I know, but it just fails logic that all committees are on the lookout for this because frankly there is only like what 5 people in each year who get block awards (AT MOST, usually it's the same person anyway), and there isn't enough of them to go around to all the "best programs" and who is saying they even want the most highly competitive programs anyway.

 

I think what brings out your strengths are reference letters with reference to your standings relative to the class. Not pre-clerkship awards so I'm not stressing out because I'm not the top <1% of my class. Because >99% of my class isn't either, and I doubt we're all doomed.

 

 

I am not sure if u are in med school yet. If you are, then you will go through CaRMs sooner or later. This will change your view!!!!

if you do not have awards, this does not mean you are stupid. If u have, this will give you an extra edge. When u want competetive radidency , you HAVE to work in all area of ur application. Your work does not stop till the match day!!! LOR has a role in the process but not the greatest! Most of the applicants for radiology program are generally smart, hardworking so they end up getting exellent LOR. If someone does not have a good one, that would be end of the road. I just want to highlight the importance of every part of the CaRms application. So many people wish there knew this or that!

[Madz25]

^^ yeah I was thinking the same thing. But I think what Sara was pointing out with her entire post is that everything matters for a residency as competitive as radiology. So if you gun for the top marks, even if you don't make it, you'll still end up with a decent application. Whereas if you don't even try, you'll end up being just mediocre, which won't cut if for rads.

 

I didnt try. I am "just mediocre." Had no awards, nothing that made me stand out. My school doesnt have the "H", it's just P/F. I decided on radiology late - halfway through clerkship. I still got it. How? Who knows. I have zero connections. I didnt network. Have no rads research. I only did a few electives in radiology after realizing it's what I wanted to do.

 

Applying to CaRMS is just like applying to medical school. Nobody really knows WHY you do/don't get in. All the extras on your application certainly help but they in no way, make or break an application.

 

I dont know why some people get picked over others. I personally think it depends on if the program likes you. You could be amazing on paper but if they dont want to work with you for the next 5 years, then all that hard work you put into your application doesn't matter.

[Mandibular]

Hey. I just wanna make sure I get this straight: you can do everything right, get awards, get honours all around, but if they don't like you, they won't take you cause they don't want to work with somebody they won't get along with for the next 5 years. Versus a very avg person who simply demonstrates interest in the domain and is easy to get along with gets accepted?

[A-Stark]

Yes. CaRMS is more like a series of job interviews - in fact, that's exactly what it is. At that point, being a friendly and personable person who clearly wants to be part of the team is key. It's not so much a matter of "objective" criteria (though those do matter) as with medical school admissions, but a reflection of what residency is - the first step into the working world as a newly graduated physician.

[lostintime]

Lol so you could totally have greater potential to be a better resident, but if you're not as desirable to have beer with on Friday nights compared to the next guy, you're booted. Great to know. Like yeah I understand if there's red flags (you're arrogant, difficult to teach etc), but getting along and desirability of residents wanting to hang out with you kind of depends on whether personalities match and that's not really something you can really control.

[sarakj]

Well, there are always exceptions to everything! There is another med student in my class with no related research and avarage academic records matched to a radiology program this year. To make it even more interesting, she did not even got an interview from that school . She called PD and asked for a chance. And she made it at the end. What I have put down is for GEtting an Interview to top 3 programs in Canada! And after that, it is all about your interview. How you speak, how well you relate to questins and how you stand out. I know a few candidates with tons of research and high marks that did not get it.. Why? Goes back to the interview feedback!

[Madz25]

Hey. I just wanna make sure I get this straight: you can do everything right, get awards, get honours all around, but if they don't like you, they won't take you cause they don't want to work with somebody they won't get along with for the next 5 years. Versus a very avg person who simply demonstrates interest in the domain and is easy to get along with gets accepted?

 

If someone has multiple publications in ...science or nature and builds homes for the needy and what not...but they are rude and not fun to work with, would you want to work closely with them for 5 years? Should someone who realized they really liked a competitive specialty later in med school be penalized because they werent gunning for it from day 1?

 

Programs have 5 years to teach you everything you need to know to be proficient in their specialty. If you managed to get into, and make it through medical school, it's pretty much guaranteed that you have the ability to learn and retain information. What's left that a "boss" would want from its employees?

 

I have heard from someone that if they have 2 equal applicants but one has a letter from someone they know recommending the student, then they are more likely to take that student. They know and trust the person writing the recommendation. Therefore, knowing the right people can help you, unfortunately. Keep in mind I said "equal applicants." So if you're a total d**k, it doesn't matter who you know.

 

This is in no way set in stone. This is what *I* have heard and believe. Awards, publications and all those extras certainly dont hurt an application. Just dont think that because you're resume is 10 pages long that you'll get whatever you want. I've seen that backfire.

[lostintime]

I think the line between someone who "likes to work with you" versus "likes you as a person" is kind of blurred. Someone could not do anything wrong, but may not be liked as much as the next candidate as a "person" and then lose out. In MOST industries, it's more about competence rather than being a fun and cool person to be around. But that's life I guess.

[Lactic Folly]

Just my conjecture, but staff form most of the committees, and they are likely to look for "good to work with" and "competent" as opposed to "fun and cool to hang out with." Residents may vouch for those they particularly like, but are unlikely to nix those who are nice people just because they don't share the same interests.

[monkey799]

consider this if you were the PD

 

(1) 200 applications come across your desk and you can only select 40 for interview to pick 7 to enroll in your program, how would you select them?

 

You don't know most of them, and even those names you recognize, you have either forgotten about or the interaction has been so superficial that they don't play a role in your decision.

 

This is why objective criteria like academics, publications, ref letters and awards matter.

 

sarakj and jctulip are right on the spot

 

(2) you've done all the 40 interviews, and you are trying to rank people who will be good fit for the program, especially getting along with residents and staff, how would you do that?

 

All of them are certainly well-qualified academically.

 

Well obviously those who have personality issues with staff or residents, or simply a bad vibe - they go directly to bottom of the ranking list or even not ranked.

 

The specific ones who your colleagues really want to have in your program (ie strong connection) will go toward the top.

 

The rest will depend on the vibe you get from the interview day.

 

There are obviously outliers, like a weak applicant getting in, and strong applicant not matching due to the above factors. All of these are simply common sense.

[Madz25]

consider this if you were the PD

 

(1) 200 applications come across your desk and you can only select 40 for interview to pick 7 to enroll in your program, how would you select them?

 

You don't know most of them, and even those names you recognize, you have either forgotten about or the interaction has been so superficial that they don't play a role in your decision.

 

This is why objective criteria like academics, publications, ref letters and awards matter.

 

sarakj and jctulip are right on the spot

 

(2) you've done all the 40 interviews, and you are trying to rank people who will be good fit for the program, especially getting along with residents and staff, how would you do that?

 

All of them are certainly well-qualified academically.

 

Well obviously those who have personality issues with staff or residents, or simply a bad vibe - they go directly to bottom of the ranking list or even not ranked.

 

The specific ones who your colleagues really want to have in your program (ie strong connection) will go toward the top.

 

The rest will depend on the vibe you get from the interview day.

 

There are obviously outliers, like a weak applicant getting in, and strong applicant not matching due to the above factors. All of these are simply common sense.

 

agreed.

 

i just dont want people to think that if you have the "perfect" resume that you're guaranteed to get a spot or if you decide on something competitive later in the game then you have no chance. nothing is set in stone. you can do the above to strengthen your application but dont lose hope if you're not an all around superstar.