Ranking Australian schools for Canadians

[Dreamcatcher]

So I've been looking into Australian med schools and have been accepted to the University of Queensland (UQ) so far. I'm also looking into Melbourne, Sydney and Flinders.

 

My main concern about UQ is it's huge class size (~450) and their pretty lax application process (even moreso than Carib schools). As a plus point, it does seem to be pretty international and actually Canadian-friendly. In terms of returning back to Canada, I do not have any info on match rates of UQ grads. This would be interesting to find out.

 

I've been told that as is the case in Canada, Australian med schools are on pretty much equal footing in terms of quality of education and overall ranking. However, with my ultimate goal of obtaining residency in Canada, which schools would be regarded in a better light by Canadian residency programs? With an IMG match rate of 18% this year, I wonder whether international school of choice even matters anymore...

 

So anyways, I know that Sydney and Melbourne are world-renowned institutions and Flinders is a good school as well with linkages to some U.S. hospitals while UQ accepts a lot of Canadians. As a Canadian, what would be my best bet for med school in Australia?

[icewine]

i'm a current upper year student at Flinders so i might be able to help you out some. in terms of match rates back home, Flinders grads do pretty well. this year 8/9 matched back home and a few were pretty competitive matches - rads, anaesthesia, community med. last year a Flinders grad got the only derm spot (img) in the country at Toronto. Flinders seems to be fairly well known amongst the different med faculties back home. Flinders has quite a few links with Northern - their dean (Dr. Strasser) is an Aussie, originally from Monash in Melbourne, and Flinders and Northern are both big on the community clerkship (year 3 in the community instead of a teaching hospital). Northern actually based their 3rd year model on what Flinders was doing (http://www.universityaffairs.ca/med-students-head-north.aspx). there's a med education conference going on this year in Oz that's being co-hosted by Flinders and Northern, and there was one a few years back held in N. Ontario. there seems to be a fair bit of collaboration between Flinders and Northern. UBC also sought input from Flinders when they set up their community clerkship a few years back (http://www.med.ubc.ca/__shared/assets/education_matters_feb_20044563.pdf). Flinders also has links with Uni Limerick in Ireland and has an exchange program with St. George's, Uni London.

 

i'd imagine that the other Oz schools have similar match rates back home. i've been lurking around the past few days and i've come across the 41% stat (41% success rate for Oz grads in CaRMS). i don't want to start a pissing contest but honestly that seems a bit low. if you check http://carms.ca/pdfs/2010R1_MatchResults/IMGs%20by%20Region_1stand2nd%20Iteration_en.pdf it gives a breakdown of the img 2010 match rate by geographical region - Oceania/Pacific Islands had 25/39 applicants match through CaRMS which is roughly 64%. of course, not all those applicants are from Oz but i think the 41% stat should be taken with a grain of salt (as should my earlier 8/9 Flinders stat - double check by contacting Flinders! don't take everything you see on the interwebs as fact).

 

Flinders is far from perfect; i can probably name a million and one things that i dislike about the program. but it's a decent school and if you put in the time and effort you will get a good education and hopefully end up where you want to go.

[nosuperman]

Its much appreciated to see another perspective! I'm interviewing for Flinders tomorrow

 

Could you maybe comment on what your options are if you aren't one of IMG's that match? I'd like to have the option to pursue something outside of FM/IM and people from the schools I've talked to have said I shouldn't count on being able to get an internship in Australia... so from what people have told me - if I go to Australia I'm pretty much restricted to FM/IM in Canada or else I'm screwed (edit: not to say theres a problem with IM/FM - I may find them to be the most interesting and fulfilling of everything - its just having the option to follow up on other interests would be nice)

 

Also I thought Deakin sounded impressive. Their curriculum reminded me of Western's and their labs and technology were all new and top of the line. Class size was relatively smaller and rotation options looked super interesting.

[leviathan]

There is more than one IMG spot for derm, just FYI. I think a St George's grad took a derm spot too. Someone from Saba got a plastic surgery match, and there were lots of anesthesia, orthopedic surgery, urology, and other competitive matches from Saba too. Family med isn't your only option if you go abroad, although it certainly is the safest option.

[nosuperman]

There is more than one IMG spot for derm, just FYI.

 

It looks as if there was only one last year...

 

Edit: And only one this year as well

[icewine]

hey – good luck on the interview! it’s pretty relaxed. a bit of unsolicited advice though: i’ve read through a couple of your past posts and based on stats alone i think you should keep applying back home until you get in.

 

i can’t really comment re: unmatched IMG’s as i’m really not in contact with Flinders grads. it’s a pretty bad situation professionally to be in, though. i reckon that unmatched IMG’s do research or do clinical work to bolster their application for the next year, and if they haven’t write the USMLE’s. in terms of internship: this is the big issue in Oz at the moment. as it stands now 4th and 3rd year internationals who want to stay should be able to. it’s the 2nd years and the classes coming after them that will be facing the “med student tsunami”. the class of 2012 is when all the new grads start entering internship and based on current numbers there wouldn’t even be enough internship spots for the 2012 Aussie (domestic) students. at a minimum the government will create enough spots so that the 2012 Aussie students will be covered but beyond that all bets are off. however, AMSA (Aussie version of the CFMS) is lobbying for enough spots so that internationals can get internships and of course the government has an interest in keeping all the Aussie-educated docs in Oz if they can – politicians recognize the potential workforce they have in Aussie-educated internationals. that is all up in the air though. bottom line is that internationals coming now shouldn’t expect to be able to stay. however, as was mentioned earlier you are by no means restricted to FM in Canada. since the parallel match was introduced Flinders grads who’ve matched back home have done so in a pretty even distribution (approx. 50% FM, 50% specialty incl. IM). students who have matched back home though have all put in a good amount of work, regardless of residency choice.

 

check out the following article: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/training-fails-to-prepare-new-doctors/story-e6frg6n6-1225825257620. it alludes to some of the problems in the Aussie curriculum that i referred to in an earlier post. some of the science teaching we get is pretty lax. Aussie education really focuses on the clinical aspect of medicine at the expense of some basic sciences (esp. micro, pharm, biochem). at Flinders especially I remember some of the anatomy tutorials we’ve had were pretty hectic (and at times pointless) as often there were only a few profs and upwards of 50 students during prac time. i do get the impression that we go through some of the basic sciences more in depth at Flinders than at other Oz unis but in general it’s not at the level that say the American schools go into. it is possible to learn the stuff we’re deficient in on your own; you just have to be motivated enough to do it. this leads to another aspect you have to keep in mind when reading that article: the Aussie schools are P/F (where P=50%, at least at Flinders) – you can progress by doing a minimum amount of work. now, I’m not saying that the students interviewed in these studies are slackers but based on my observations of many of my upper year classmates if you put in the work and really hit the books/wards then you should be fairly well prepared at the end of it all. you really do need to be motivated to succeed here, and not be content with just passing. self-study and being self-directed is the name of the game.

[Dreamcatcher]

Great info and input from everyone and thank you icewine for sharing your experiences and insight on Aussie schools.

 

Flinders seems like a great school, especially given its familiarity amongst universities in North America, particularly in Canada, the latter of which I was not aware of i.e. the links and sharing of educational model systems/curriculums with UBC and Northern. This is encouraging but must of course be taken with cautious hope.

 

8/9 matches back home is pretty darn good for Flinders grads but again, IMGs are a case-by-case story. If you don't mind me asking icewine, are you planning on applying for Canadian/U.S. residencies? Apart from the oncoming 'medical student tsunami', I am definitely keen on returning to Canada for personal and academic reasons. I'd love to say that the shortage of internships to come in Oz wouldn't affect me since I want to come back to Canada, but the reality is that I can't ignore the barriers for IMGs in Canada and the lack of U.S. exposure for a spot in the U.S. To keep opportunities open to me in the U.S., would it be recommended to do a clinical rotation or whatnot in the U.S. as well as Canada?

 

As for programs to match to back home, I am open to IM but as others have been saying, would like to keep all options open (albeit realistically speaking).

[icewine]

no worries. my point when talking about Flinders’ links back home was to show that the school isn’t some unknown entity but rather seems to be a pretty well-known institution, at least with med faculties.

 

you are 100% correct about the Flinders matches. what I wanted to get across is that it’s the student and not the school that is responsible for his/her success. personally I want to return home but i’m not sure what specialty I’d like to pursue. in regards to pursuing an American residency, the advice is generally the same for those who want to go back home: do well on your exams (the EE or the USMLE’s) and do electives in North America. some good advice I received from an upper year when I first started was to decide where you wanted to go (Canada or the U.S.) and then focus your effort on that. i personally wouldn’t split my elective time in 4th year (we get 24 weeks) between Canada and the States. i’d advise students wanting to go home to do one 4 week elective in the States and then do the rest at home. vice versa if one wanted to go to the U.S. it’s nice to have the options open to us (Canada, U.S., Australia) but at the end of the day you can only end up in one place so it’s better to focus on that.

 

just a few comments regarding the tsunami and lack of exposure in the U.S., elective-wise:

IMO in regards to the tsunami I think the government will fund extra spots (on top of the new spots for Aussie grads) for internationals who would like to stay in Oz post-2012, but it won’t be enough to guarantee a spot for every international student (so if in 2012 if there were say 100 international grads across the country the government might fund an extra 30 internship spots, on top of the guaranteed spots for the Aussie grads). i’m hazy on the particulars about who funds the spots exactly (I actually think the state government funds internship spots rather than the federal government) but you get the idea. my rationale for this is that Oz med faculties depend heavily on the tuition that international students pay; if prospective international students to Oz med schools knew that the chances of getting an internship were slim to none then they wouldn’t bother coming, decreasing the amount of tuition (and funding) from international students. thus it’s in the schools’ interest to ensure that at least some internationals can attain internship spots, after ensuring that all Aussie grads get an internship spot. this is all just conjecture though.

concerning U.S. elective time for students wanting to go to the States: the Caribbean students get years 3 and 4 in the States which is obviously an advantage but honestly I think if you spend most of your 4th year elective time in the States that’s more than enough. there are only a handful of Americans across the 4 years but AFAIK American grads have no problems matching back to the States. Canadians have to deal with the visa issues, of course, but aside from that I don’t think we are at a disadvantage in terms of the amount of elective weeks. it’s how you perform during those electives that matters far more.

 

now at the risk of sounding like a broken record: this post makes it seem like it’s pretty easy to come back home for residency/stay in Aus for internship/go to the States for residency, but of course the reality is that you will need to put in a tremendous amount of work. going to Australia is a risk but IMO I think it’s the best option of the non-LCME schools in terms of getting a training position after graduation, whether it’s at home or abroad.

[leviathan]

It looks as if there was only one last year...

 

Edit: And only one this year as well

 

Oh...I think I got confused as to the year the poster was referring to this derm match. The 2010 derm spot went to someone from St. George's University. https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2010/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

[leviathan]

Some advice I can give you with respect to US electives is to find one at a university hospital or residency program which is

 

1) ACGME accredited / "Greenbook" for that specialty: This means there is a residency program that trains physicians in the elective you want to do. In other words if you want to match in internal med, do an IM elective at a site which has an IM residency program.

 

2) IMG/Visa friendly: Meaning the site has a history of regularly accepting IMGs and/or those who need visas for their residency spots.

 

The elective you do there is essentially a 2-6 (or longer) week interview. If you do well, and they like you, many of these places will even offer you a "pre-match" residency spot, which means you don't even need to apply to the US residency match system (the NRMP) and you get the offer outside of the matching system.

[nosuperman]

hey – good luck on the interview! it’s pretty relaxed. a bit of unsolicited advice though: i’ve read through a couple of your past posts and based on stats alone i think you should keep applying back home until you get in.

 

Thank you! The interview was actually my favourite interview to date! Dr. Edwards and the two med students were amazing. If I do go to Australia, Flinders is certainly my top choice at this point.

 

Also thank you for your detailed responses and advice. Might I solicit some more? Why would you opt to stick around Canada for 1-2 more years (re-writing MCAT and boosting GPA) as opposed to going to Australia and hoping to come back? (Edit: I know about the internship situation in Aus as well as the fact that IMG's have a harder time matching in CaRMS so either is a gamble of sorts, just curious about what leads you to bet on staying in Canada?)

[redshifteffect]

 

just a few comments regarding the tsunami and lack of exposure in the U.S., elective-wise:

IMO in regards to the tsunami I think the government will fund extra spots (on top of the new spots for Aussie grads) for internationals who would like to stay in Oz post-2012, but it won’t be enough to guarantee a spot for every international student (so if in 2012 if there were say 100 international grads across the country the government might fund an extra 30 internship spots, on top of the guaranteed spots for the Aussie grads). i’m hazy on the particulars about who funds the spots exactly (I actually think the state government funds internship spots rather than the federal government) but you get the idea. my rationale for this is that Oz med faculties depend heavily on the tuition that international students pay; if prospective international students to Oz med schools knew that the chances of getting an internship were slim to none then they wouldn’t bother coming, decreasing the amount of tuition (and funding) from international students. thus it’s in the schools’ interest to ensure that at least some internationals can attain internship spots, after ensuring that all Aussie grads get an internship spot. this is all just conjecture though.

 

I have access to the AMC stats, and it's a little more then 100 internationals.

 

The figures are around 2007 there were 1500 grads and by 2014 there will be 2900 Aussie grads (PRs+citizens) and around 300+ internationals and an unknown amount of IMGs. There are 100 internationals at UQ alone. By 2014 there is a plan to have 1200 GP spots and 900 specialist training positions.

 

Why would the Australian government fund international spots? They owe them nothing, and these guys will not even be able to vote them into office. If they fund positions for internationals at the risk of locals not being able to get spots (which might happen as I highly doubt we will be able to literally double the amount of training positions in a mere 7 years) they will risk alienating people that could actually put them out of office.

 

As for risking alienating internationals I think you underestimate the demand of medicine in Australia. Even if a lack of jobs means a few do not bother to apply, there are still a tremendous number of internationals from Asia who come here for "prestige" so they can return to more competitive positions back home who will be able to fill the void left by North Americans. If you want even more proof just look at the UQ-Oschner students who are paying significantly more then regular UQ students just to do core rotations in the US, in a program that hasn't even been recognised by the AMC yet.

[icewine]

hey red, i've been reading your posts about Oz schools on SDN from even before i went to Oz so you've probably more experience on the matter than me. the 100 international grads was an arbitrary figure; i think the latest number was somewhere close to 500 international grads by 2012. you raise a number of fair points and i won't argue them. i don't think the situation for internationals in regards to internships will be as bleak in 2012 as some paint it out to be but again that is my own opinion. bottom line is that it is a big risk leaving Canada to study medicine and internationals coming to Oz now shouldn't count on staying.

 

nosuperman - good to hear the interview went well! Dr. Edwards is a good guy, a "top bloke" as the Aussies would say. in regards to your question: in general, if a med applicant has a decent shot of getting interviews in Canada i think that he/she should apply at least once before thinking about going abroad, if not more. there are just so many hurdles that international grads have to go through in order to go back home to work that it may be worth delaying matriculation for a year or two in order to get in at home. in regards to your own situation: you posted your GPA/MCAT in a previous post and they seem pretty safe - ie. for the "cutoff schools" (UWO/Queen's) i reckon you'd get interviews if you kept applying, not to mention the other Canadian schools. hopefully this discussion is for naught though, and you end up getting off the waitlist!

 

edit: i just read your post on the "cost-benefit" thread. did you apply to Queen's as well? because your GPA (assuming cGPA) should be good enough for the Queen's cutoffs.