Guest PeterHill0501 Posted June 24, 2002 Report Share Posted June 24, 2002 I just wanted to write this post to let you know that I have withdrawn my name from the "bad waitlist" at U of O and have decided, after much consideration, not to reapply to the U of O program next academic year. Although, the U of O has an excellent medical program and excellent students (as exemplified by those I've met at the school, friends who have graduated from the program as well as the people who I've met in this forum) I have experienced several incidents (not to mention the name Dr. R.L. Hebert) which have convinced me that certain aspects of the program are not in alignment with my personal values and long-term goals. For those of you who have been accepted...congratulations! I have one piece of food for thought I hope you carry with you throughout medical school, residency and life...you deserve AT LEAST the same respect as any other human being...demand it...don't settle for anything less...and don't forget to support one another throughout medical school, residency and beyond...there's nothing more important than the personal, professional and intimate relationships in your life. Just prior to the end of life...it's going to be people that you think about...not accomplishments, etc...don't lose sight of what's important. Now that I'm off my soap box...you can be assured I will continue to pursue my dream of medicine...while we will not be classmates at the U of O, perhaps one day we will bump into each other as colleagues at a conference, etc. I'll also continue to hang here as I have really enjoyed the people I've met. Thanks for your support, friendship and interesting discussions. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ItsmeMelissa Posted June 24, 2002 Report Share Posted June 24, 2002 Peter, I don't want to pry, but I don't think I am alone in wondering what could have happened to cause you to do this? I know that those of us not admitted this year are having to make major decisions, but this one seems a little out of your character! I'm not asking you to dish dirt here, but what the heck happened? As someone who is also trying to figure out my approach for my next application (which by the way will NOT be in October 2002) I would really like to hear from you. Sincerely, Melissa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V Posted June 24, 2002 Report Share Posted June 24, 2002 Peter, You should seriously think of writing the MCAT. I think you would do really well, and have shots at mutiple schools. I think, from the time we met and from the posts in here, that you are a sincere and kind individual with the passion and heart required to make a GREAT physician. This is what you want. Don't lose sight of that. Work towards your goal and it will come. Also remember that this is your first year applying. Today, the average medical student has to apply twice in order to get accepted. Best of Luck Peter, V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest James Wong Posted June 24, 2002 Report Share Posted June 24, 2002 Wow Peter...I knew your experience was not a pleasant one...I'm saddened to hear that the experience soured you that much on the school. I sincerely hope that you still continue to follow your dream nevertheless. I must admit that I was hoping to have classes with you some day, but maybe after we both get our medical degrees, we will. Best of luck to you, Peter. Yours, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted June 24, 2002 Report Share Posted June 24, 2002 Melissa, Thanks for the response...to answer your question...I would prefer not to get into the total dirt...let's just say that certain individuals have shown some of the "other side" of what it's like to be in medicine. As you know, my wife and many of our friends have been through the program at U of O...while there are mostly excellent profs and the program is also quite excellent...there are certain individuals who treat people like crap...sub-human, even. I have countless stories of incidents which my wife and friends have had to put up with, including, sexual harassment (which was brought in front of the gender committee and received support), degrading public behaviour, and, yes, while performing obs/gyn surgery my wife's hand was actually even slapped by one of these "role models" as she didn't do something completely to his liking...hmmm, respectful, supportive, caring learning environment...? So much for exhibiting the characteristics so important for admission to the program... I have to admit, when I heard some of these stories I had a hard time believing that there wasn't another side or that in the heat of "fatigue" some bad interaction occurred...but after having a taste of how an above mentioned person (and others) treated me personally...and the response from the Dean of Medicine...it is clear to me that if I felt unsupported as an applicant it could only get worse if I became "hierarchically dependent" on some of these individuals within a learning setting. My personal goals and values are too strong to subject myself to that type of thing...as with a bad relationship...there's another school out there that better fits my personal style and needs...and, as with a relationship...it's a very personal thing...I don't discourage anybody from going to U of O...as I've said it's an excellent program that turns out excellent doctors...it's just that my criteria and their criteria are not in alignment... I think everybody has to consider what it is they would like to get out of life...what's important...what's not...what's tolerable and what's acceptable...these incidents (which I've posted in other threads) have gone beyond threshold of acceptability with respect to what I consider important. Good luck. I look forward to continued discussions with you and others in this forum. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted June 24, 2002 Report Share Posted June 24, 2002 V., James, Thanks for your kind words...you can be assured I will pursue my dream. Thanks again for your friendship. Please keep in touch. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maxell Posted June 26, 2002 Report Share Posted June 26, 2002 Peter: although I have never really communicated with you, I would like to add my own comments to the above. I hope you do not mind and will not consider me intrusive. I think that in all universities and all hospitals, there will be extremely "bad" and unpleasant people, and this is certainly not exclusive to the U of O. My sister is having a horrible time in her residency program in Alberta - she is consistently harrassed to the degree that she wants to quit. One of her supervisors (female) did whatever she could to make her fail, and took every opportunity to degrade her. And one of the professors at the UofT wanted to fail my brother while he was in medical school - he got an A+ in the same unit when he withdraw and re-registered with another doctor. Given that universities (medical schools) are publicly funded institutions, I don't think any one should be dissauded by certain people who work there no matter how bad or discriminatory they are, after all, the school does not belong to those people, they only work there and their "vision" (if any) does not represent that of the institution itself. I feel negatively about the UofO as well, and that I, no matter how many times I apply, I will be at a disadvantage (because of my age and race - true or false is another question). However, whatever my beliefs are, I will never allow those people to influence my behaviour, and prevent me from applying. I take it for granted that in medical school and during residency, and even after, I will come across extremely biased and unpleasant people regardless where I am. My father who worked as an internist in seven countries constantly faced discrimination and unpleasantness from his superiors, but he kept on to his job because he wanted to practice medicine for the love of the profession. From your other posts, I suspect you might have been some time out of university. I have gone to three universities in the past 7 years (undergraduate to graduate). My opinion is about half of all people I met basically do not wish you to succeed and take every opportunity to degrade you (even as a child in Germany, I was told that I was too stupid to go to university (- my GPA is >3.9). It is my opinion that medical schools especially are very "arrogant" to would-be applicants. Basically, what I am saying is that regardless where you apply to, they are all the same to a certain extent, and that no medical school holds up to its ideals. I hope that what I wrote is not completely nonsense! Good luck in your future applications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest as Posted June 26, 2002 Report Share Posted June 26, 2002 Out of curiosity, are you Asian Maxell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted June 26, 2002 Report Share Posted June 26, 2002 Maxell, Thanks for your post. You're right...I've been out of school for a while...I'm 39 years old. I can only appreciate what it would be like to be discriminated against as someone who is sensitive as, from the outside, I appear like the "normal" white anglosaxon male... (if people only knew I'm actually a german jew...ha ha...funny, I always wondered why the water boiled every time I entered the Anglican church my parents brought me to (I'm adopted). I'm just glad I didn't grow up anti-semetic...how could I have lived with myself once I found out my ancestry! The only experience I have which has made me feel, only for a short period of time, as one might feel as a "visible minority" is when I was in Port Antonio, Jamaica, in the off season...my wife and I were actually the only white people in town...and let me tell you, we stuck out like sore thumbs...and people definitely noticed us...it was an interesting feeling...one which I feel fortunate not to have to experience on a daily basis. Thank goodness most people look beyond skin colour and culture... You know, if it were just the one person or even a few, I could probably live with it. However...to give you a brief example... after receiving a "bad" waitlist letter I wrote admissions an email asking if it was possible to get some feedback to make my application stronger for next year... I also asked about a potential error in my outcome as there was a significant error made on my interview day (i.e., someone with a similar or exact last name had their file switched with mine). I got an email back from admissions indicating they didn't provide feedback...fine. A day later, I received a call on my cell phone from the asst. dean of admissions who was incredibly rude to me, used offensive language, and raised his voice to the point of almost yelling. To make a long story short...if this wasn't offensive enough, I wrote the Dean of Admissions and told him what had happened...asked if the university supported this type of behaviour...he had the audacity to tell me he spoke with the individual and that it must have been "a poor cell phone connection"which caused me to misinterpret the phone call...because the individual said he was pleasant to me...provided constructive feedback...and at no time was rude...the Dean went on to start telling me the model and manufacturer of his cell phone indicating that he had similar problems...is this insulting or what? I realized that as a student, you'd have no chance against this type of mentality...I couldn't stand the thought of having to subject myself to those two individuals, even if it was only for 4 years. I know the medical profession very well and I know it has it's quirks...but I can tell you, this is out of scope. There are other universities I can apply to, I'm not willing to take the chance that these people could actually give me a hard time and actually have some hierarchical leverage... [edit] - sorry...to address one more point you made...that there will be untoward people everywhere...I have dealt with difficult people before...working in high tech for over a decade, believe me, I've met some real beauties...but these individuals who I'm talking about are different in a few ways...first, they are in positions of authority at the university and can affect your happiness and, ultimately, your success...second, they, unlike others I've dealt with throughout my life are "yuckky" people (nice word eh? I can't think of a better word to describe them) unprofessional and deceitful individuals...I'm to old and have too good of a career that I would be leaving...only to subject myself to the likes of these people? I don't think so...I want to do medicine because I love it...I will have fun doing it and I'm good at the biological sciences...medical school will be hard enough...I want to enjoy those around me and make the best of 4-9 years of what really amounts to a career during medical school and residency...if I have to spend it with people like...well you know...then I choose to go to another university... Anyway...thanks again for the words of support...I look forward to continuing discussions with you and others in this forum.... Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maxell Posted June 26, 2002 Report Share Posted June 26, 2002 Peter: if you have a legitimate grievance against the process, you can contact the university ombudsman and describe your case to them. Information is usually confidential, so you don't have to fear recrimination should you wish to subsequently reapply. I contacted the U of Manitoba ombudsman regarding a much more minor case (regarding the behaviour of a campus policeman) - she was willing to listen, but I didn't bother to follow-up. Think about it - it might be worth it only if to officially vent your anger against the university. If you decide on this, make sure your info is kept confidential just in case you decide to reapply, given the subjectivity of the admissions process. My point stands as before - you should not be discouraged by the behaviour of others. People are rude for a purpose - to try to prevent you from speaking with them, to reapply, or whatever. The medical school does not belong the the dean, secretary, or any one else. It is funded by tax payers like you, and their salaries come from people like you. And you will not be accountable to anyone. As a student, you will also have your rights protected - you will always have recourse to others who will protect you should you face trouble. Note to "as": I am not Asian. I am of middle-eastern descent, and non-Canadian in origin. It is easy to blame everything on race, etc, but given that Ontario is a province that is just full of people of visible minorities, it is surprising that the UofO medical school has so little people like me. And if you just go to any hospital - you will see that the vast majority of doctors are Caucasian , while the vast majority of nurses / staff are of visible minorities. I don't claim that is was not admitted because of my race - there were other factors - but I believe that I do not hold up to their stereotype, which makes it more difficult for me since the interview is subjective, and the medical establishment very protective of its own kind. If you make a comparision to the U of Manitoba medical school (where admission is based 60% on grades / MCAT) you observe a greater number of people like me even though Manitoba is a province that has predominantely people of Caucasian origin. Why does this apparent paradox exist? Maybe I am wrong. I probably am. I don't really care that much since Ottawa will never be my first choice. I will only go there (if ever admitted) if I don't have an option. And I intend on getting accepted somewhere regardless how long I have to wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted June 26, 2002 Report Share Posted June 26, 2002 Thanks again for the support Maxell. I did try to contact the University's Ombudsperson but they claim they do not have one. I was in contact with the Rector of the University who was completely neutral...he did, however, provide me with good info with respect to who I could contact... the Honorable Diane Cunningham who is the minister of Training, Colleges and Universities...Government of Ontario...they fund the medical school. A letter of grievance has already been written and copied to all parties involved from the medical school as well as the school's rector. Anonymity is not really an issue for me as I will not be reapplying to the UofO... Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V Posted June 26, 2002 Report Share Posted June 26, 2002 Don't be a quitter. If you were a doctor and you had a sour impression of one or two people, would that dictate you not working in that specific hospital. I think not. Do you really think that the two people you had a problem with are representative of the school. I think not. We, the students of past and present are what make U of O meds so great. Don't let them sour your impression of the entire program. You have lots to offer and so do we. Don't throw that away, not just yet anyway. Look at your application, see where you went wrong and kick some a$$ next year. Keep your head up and dont be so negative about every experience. I any of us did that, we would not be in the positions we are today. Keep on truckin' V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted June 26, 2002 Report Share Posted June 26, 2002 Drs. Hebert and Walker have pretty much communicated that I will never get into the meds program at U of O, regardless of my qualifications or suitability. I am actually not a quitter...I've never quit anything substantial in my life...and most certainly not because of other people, regardless of how untoward they are. I will pursue a career in medicine, but I feel there may be other schools more in alignment with my needs. My application is fine...it was my interview that killed me. In a void of feedback, the only areas I have been able to come up with are (1) I focussed too much on my academic achievements...I should have focussed on my EC and non-academic achievements more, (2) my switch from a 11+ year career in human factors and product design to medicine also may have sealed the "bad waitlist" envelope. Perhaps just reapplying and bringing this up myself and talking about why I wanted to make this switch/what motivated the switch may be helpful. I believe the interviewers may have thought I was grasping at straws after having been laid off from Nortel. Anyway, this is what I've come up with so far...I will continue to introspect. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AlsoLetGoFromNortel Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 Hi Peter, It's not Dr. Robin Walker, the neonatologist, you're referring to, is it???? Thanks, Ex-Nortel emp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 Hello AlsoLetGoFromNortel, Boy...what a relief, eh? Our group was terminated last may...the last few years were pretty stressful. I was talking about the Dean of Medicine, Dr. Peter Walker... Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AlsoLetGoFromNortel Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 Hi Peter, Right.. the dean of admissions makes a lot more sense (You can tell I did not apply and am not familiar with the big names in med school admissions ) I got my walking papers recently (this week) and you're right it is a relief (was in optical). Anyway, I've been scanning this board for awhile but haven't posted before. I'm sure you've found all the advice useful but ultimately you know best your own situation and seem very conscientous that you will make the best decision. I'm sure you're a great candidate and will excel at whatever you pursue, be it medicine or otherwise. Keep looking forward, not back Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 Are you who I think you are? If so, congratulations on finally being cut free. Although I'm sure you're feeling a bit crappy right now...believe me...there is a bunch more stuff out there other than Nortel. If you're not who I think you are...well, it's nice to meet you. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AlsoLetGo Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 Peter, I am nearly certain that I have never spoken to you before. But perhaps what I said is not so original so you've associated me with someone else All the best Btw, I'm taking the lay-off pretty well, with just a little bit of sadness from having to move on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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