Leaving a PhD

[Chicago Hopeless]

I'm currently enrolled in a PhD program, but I am planning on leaving to pursue a degree in medicine. Is leaving a PhD unfinished a major turnoff to admissions committees?

 

Also, I will not be seeking a letter of reference from my advisor, not because of a poor relationship, but rather due to a complete lack of a relationship. I just feel that I have other, much better people to act as my references. Can anyone shed some light on how this might affect how my application is perceived?

 

Cheers,

 

CH

[Patho_Medicus]

Do you already have a formal firm acceptance from a school? If so, then it has very little effect what you wish to do with your current degree. If however you are still waiting for interviews then be prepared to explain such drastic changes in decision to them and I believe you will need compelling reasons. Are you early on in your PhD or are you quitting mid way?

[Chicago Hopeless]

Do you already have a formal firm acceptance from a school? If so, then it has very little effect what you wish to do with your current degree. If however you are still waiting for interviews then be prepared to explain such drastic changes in decision to them and I believe you will need compelling reasons. Are you early on in your PhD or are you quitting mid way?

 

I'm entering my second year of the PhD, and I am planning on applying in the next application cycle.

[DanInVan]

It depends on the school. Some schools will accept people without finishing a graduate degree, others won't accept you until you have finished (U of T is one of those for sure).

[future_doc]

You are not the only PhD student so inclined:

 

Hey all,

 

first time poster long time lurker. I recently left a Ph.D program in the humanities and applied to some Ontario Med. schools. My understanding was that as long as my supervisor sent a separate letter explaining that she was aware of my departure and okay with it this would not be problem (she did send this letter and she was surprisingly supportive).

 

I mention this because elsewhere I have read on these forums that no medical school in Canada will accept you if you have left a graduate program. Could someone confirm whether this is true or not?

 

Some additional info: finished two years (all but dissertation). I am definitely not going back to finish it even if it means no med school in Canada (it's not worth minimum 3 years of my life).

 

Any info would be appreciated,

 

Der Kaiser

[Chicago Hopeless]

Der Kaiser's situation seems quite similar to mine, but I don't see how I'd be able to get a supportive letter from my supervisor encouraging me to leave the program. Would it look bad if my supervisor didn't write a letter? I am much closer to my undergraduate professors, with whom I continue to conduct research and lab work. I would most likely seek them out for references.

 

Based on the information I've come across on this forum, I know I have the "stats" to be a competitive applicant, but I am really worried that by applying now, I'm throwing money away because all they'll see is a PhD dropout who can't commit. In reality, I feel that the opposite is true, that by dropping out I'm showing how committed I am to the pursuit of medicine--that I'm willing to make this change despite being quite far along on my current path. But I don't know. I am very insecure about this process, as I'm sure many are.

[future_doc]

Why not speak to the adcoms of a med school thatis low on your list to get a feel from what they say, what they don't say, any pauses or the tone of voice, etc.

[Chicago Hopeless]

Why not speak to the adcoms of a med school thatis low on your list to get a feel from what they say, what they don't say, any pauses or the tone of voice, etc.

 

That's a pretty good suggestion. I guess it never hurts to come right out and ask a point question.

[*Pixie*]

It might be a good idea to look into transferring to a different prof for a PhD. I know a few MSc students that have done that b/c of the issues they were having with their prof, so hopefully PhD have similar opportunities. That way you could get into an MD/PhD degree and hopefully take advantage of all the time you have invested into your grad degree so far. I am sure that there are advisors in your faculty that you can discuss your situation with, since what you r experiencing is not uncommon.

[PhD_Candidate_2011]

I'm currently enrolled in a PhD program, but I am planning on leaving to pursue a degree in medicine. Is leaving a PhD unfinished a major turnoff to admissions committees?

 

Also, I will not be seeking a letter of reference from my advisor, not because of a poor relationship, but rather due to a complete lack of a relationship. I just feel that I have other, much better people to act as my references. Can anyone shed some light on how this might affect how my application is perceived?

 

Cheers,

 

CH

 

Sorry to hear the PhD program didn't work out as planed. Strained and/or non-existent relationships with advisors are indeed (unfortunately) all too common.

 

As for applying to med schools, in Ontario, only UofT absolutely requires a reference letter from your graduate advisor (no exceptions). UofT also only consider applications from those in their final year of graduate studies (MSc/PhD). Thus, if you're planning on leaving your PhD part way, UofT will disqualify your application. If however, you've already withdrawn from the PhD program at the time of application, then you will be considered as part of the undergrad applicant pool (unless you already have a MSc). If you did your partial grad studies at the same institution as your undergrad, then this will be reflected on your transcript (though some universities give you the option to not include your grad degree information on your undergrad transcript). I am not sure if this information (i.e. transcript showing that you withdrew from the PhD) will have any bearing on UofT's holistic review process even if you applied as part of the undergrad applicant pool.

 

McMaster and NOSM also require a letter from either your advisor or the chair of your PhD program that confirms their knowledge of your application to med school. But they don't actually require a reference letter from your advisor. Ditto for all other med schools in Ontario. None of the other schools in Ontario have any official policies on graduate students (Queen's lowers the GPA cutoff for grad applicants, but they are unclear on whether you must have completed your degree by the time you enter med school). Perhaps someone else can clarify this point.

 

Best of luck!

[Der Kaiser]

...I am really worried that by applying now, I'm throwing money away because all they'll see is a PhD dropout who can't commit. In reality, I feel that the opposite is true, that by dropping out I'm showing how committed I am to the pursuit of medicine--that I'm willing to make this change despite being quite far along on my current path. But I don't know. I am very insecure about this process, as I'm sure many are.

 

A Ph.D can take a long time and I think many people pursue one for the wrong reasons. At least in the humanities it is much different than a Master's, because of the time taken to complete it. If I had been 2 years into an MA I would have just finished it. 2 years into a 6 year Ph.D is a different story. It's better to quit now than 2-3 years down the line, if you do not want to pursue it. Considering the job prospects in academia these days one must be VERY passionate about one's subject to succeed. Even then there are no guarantees (I've talked to some people that think landing an academic position is based largely on luck and timing). Personally, I mistook interest in my subject for a willingness to study it the rest of my life. I feel as you do that my decision to leave behind certain funding for uncertain admission to medical school took some courage, especially since medicine has never really been on my radar as a career option until now (leaving me unprepared).

 

My advice to you is to drop out completely from your program. Do not use the Ph.D as a safety in case med school does not work out. At least then you look a lot more committed in admission's essays and interviews when the subject comes up. Of course this is assuming medicine is what you really want to do. It took me several months to be sure that medicine was not just some excuse to quit or a result of some need for validation.

 

Re: OMSAS I know that you are required to have a separate letter from your supervisor stating that he/she is aware you are applying to med school (even if one of your reference letters is from your supervisor as was the case for me). Also, I have written both UofT and UBC re: unfinished Ph.Ds so I will mention their responses when I receive them.

[Der Kaiser]

In response to my query of whether one is still permitted to apply with an unfinished Ph.D on one's record I received this response from Leslie Taylor at UofT admissions:

 

"Yes. Just provide a letter of explanation when you apply. If you completed a master’s you will have to submit a graduate package. If you didn’t, you don’t have to bother."

 

Hope this helps a bit.

[future_doc]

This is major help I would think.

[Brainz]

something to think about as well: you can apply for Medicine and always defer their acceptance, should you get in if you want to finish the pHD first.

[Der Kaiser]

Just got a reply from UBC. Here it is in full:

 

"Thank you for your email. Yes, you would be able to apply to our program.

 

We would also ask that you provide a letter from your university stating that you withdrew in good academic standing - ie. that you were not "requested to withdraw". This might be something that your supervisor could provide or the Registrar or Graduate Studies Office."

 

UBC and UofT were the schools that most explicitly stated that you had to be scheduled to finish your grad degree before applying, so I think this is very good news.

[Chicago Hopeless]

Thank you, everyone, for your replies. I think there is some very valuable insight here, and I feel much more comfortable moving forward.

 

Looking at the application requirements listed on the various school websites, it appears clear to me that I would need to take next year to complete a few of the science pre-requisites, so I'm thinking I should just withdraw from my program entirely, which would eliminate any problems with being currently enrolled in a PhD while applying to med school. I'm certain that I could solicit a letter stating that I was leaving in good standing, though I certainly wouldn't be relying on my supervisor for a letter of reference. Fortunately I have others that would be more than adequate referees.

 

You know, I've been lurking this site for quite a while, but this is the first day where I can positively state that I think this thing is going to happen. I'm going to apply to med school. Now it's just a matter of getting all my ducks in order and finally taking a step in the direction I want to go.

 

Again, thank you to everyone who has posted their responses. This forum has such a wealth of resources it's amazing. Please feel free to share any other info concerning grad students leaving programs early to pursue medicine. Your insight is always appreciated.

[bloh]

There is still a big red flag if you don't get a letter from your supervisor irregardless if you are currently in graduate school, completed it or withdrew from a program.

 

In all 3 cases, your supervisor should be able to talk about your character better than anyone and the lack of it just screams trouble (to me, in any case). If you are miserable, by all means, withdraw as it isn't worth it. But don't burn any bridges with your supervisor.

 

Any options at just defending for a masters and cutting your losses?

 

edit: Can you both elaborate on what you mean by "lack of relationship". I can't imagine any circumstance where you have a better relationship with your undergraduate professors than your supervisor who is supposed to be your guide. How about your committee members? It will be really difficult to come out looking well in a scenario where you forgo a supervisors reference in lieu of undergraduate professors. If you are suggesting that your supervisor is 'a generally difficult person to get along with', then your best course of action is to get people on your committee to speak on your behalf and specifically touch on this subject. Their word will mean a lot.

[Chicago Hopeless]

There is still a big red flag if you don't get a letter from your supervisor irregardless if you are currently in graduate school, completed it or withdrew from a program.

 

In all 3 cases, your supervisor should be able to talk about your character better than anyone and the lack of it just screams trouble (to me, in any case). If you are miserable, by all means, withdraw as it isn't worth it. But don't burn any bridges with your supervisor.

 

Any options at just defending for a masters and cutting your losses?

 

edit: Can you both elaborate on what you mean by "lack of relationship". I can't imagine any circumstance where you have a better relationship with your undergraduate professors than your supervisor who is supposed to be your guide. How about your committee members? It will be really difficult to come out looking well in a scenario where you forgo a supervisors reference in lieu of undergraduate professors. If you are suggesting that your supervisor is 'a generally difficult person to get along with', then your best course of action is to get people on your committee to speak on your behalf and specifically touch on this subject. Their word will mean a lot.

 

I already completed the masters, so I'm good there. By lack of relationship I mean that my supervisor has far too many PhD students, is our departmental chair, the graduate student coordinator, the head of a huge international research society, edits a couple of journals, directs a major research project, and teaches a full course load. To say that he has little time for his students is an understatement.

 

I should point out that by no means do we have a bad relationship. However, I know he is very opinionated, and I have seen him speak poorly of his former students, and even sabotage one of his PhDs chances at getting a tenure-track position over a dispute stemming from problems he had with his dissertation. He's a brilliant man, and I admire him for his talents, but he has a major problem with helping students along.

 

Despite these disappointments, I'm not choosing to leave the program because of him. Rather, my interest in my current field of study has been waning since my last year of undergrad, and I've become much more committed to pursing something that I enjoy and am enthusiastic about.

 

The reason I would turn to my undergrad professors for letters of reference is that they know me so much better and in different capacities. I've been working on summer research projects with one professor since 2004. He also has taught me in a number of courses. Since starting grad school, I've only had one professor as an instructor for more than one semester.

 

I can understand that it might not look good to adcoms. I suppose it's a matter of perspective. To one person it might look like I've made a difficult decision to pursue a true passion, while to another it might seem like I'm a quitter who's not ready to take on the challenge of med school.

 

I guess that's what the whole point of this thread is, finding out if leaving a PhD early is a black mark on an application. Truth is, we live in a world where not everything works out the way we want it to, and it would be a shame to have this decision prevent me from achieving my goals. It would really make me wish I could go back and just leave after I'd finished my MA like I had initially intended.

 

I know I'm ranting a bit here, but one final thought I had was that perhaps I should take an extra year off to work and get some more volunteer experience. This would leave a little gap between leaving the PhD and applying to med school. Might this soften the blow a bit?

[future_doc]

It is a fallacious red herring to believe there is a red flag in your application should you not receive a letter form your supervisor, it is a non-issue and you need not be concerned in my view. Moreover, the explained the situation extraordinarily well and I do not see a black mark occurring. I agree that it is a matter of perspective and adcoms should not look at it negatively, it is a matter of marketing yourself in a credible and positive manner, which you are obviously capable of doing.

 

I think that in your essay, you should address the issue head on as to why you left your PhD program, building upon what you just posted, thereby dispensing with any potential invisible elephant in the room.

 

There is no black mark on an application. Is it possible to obtain a reference from a prof in your Masters program.

 

And the idea of volunteering to strengthen you application, if needed, is good.

 

I am sending you a PM.

[astrogirl]

I agree with f_d that it's not a red flag to not have a letter from your PhD supervisor. I didn't get a letter from my PhD supervisor simply because the profs I worked with while I was doing my master's also worked with me throughout undergrad and in non-research settings doing volunteer work and teaching together, so they were much more qualified to speak about the things med schools are interested in. They've known me for 10 years, and my PhD supervisor has known me for 3. I don't think I've even taken a class from him. All he could really talk about was my research ability, and I just felt like other people would be able to write me stronger letters.

 

And there are many reasons to leave a PhD that have nothing to do with you. I have a friend whose PhD supervisor died, and another friend whose supervisor spent two years in a mental hospital and now doesn't even know where he is most of the time because he's so heavily medicated.

[Chicago Hopeless]

I agree with f_d that it's not a red flag to not have a letter from your PhD supervisor. I didn't get a letter from my PhD supervisor simply because the profs I worked with while I was doing my master's also worked with me throughout undergrad and in non-research settings doing volunteer work and teaching together, so they were much more qualified to speak about the things med schools are interested in. They've known me for 10 years, and my PhD supervisor has known me for 3. I don't think I've even taken a class from him. All he could really talk about was my research ability, and I just felt like other people would be able to write me stronger letters.

 

And there are many reasons to leave a PhD that have nothing to do with you. I have a friend whose PhD supervisor died, and another friend whose supervisor spent two years in a mental hospital and now doesn't even know where he is most of the time because he's so heavily medicated.

 

Actually, my supervisor's supervisor died when he was a PhD student. Maybe that's why he finds it difficult to establish relationships with his graduate students??

 

Thanks for the advice astrogirl. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I'm going to leave the program, regardless of my desire to study medicine. I'm probably going to take some time off to work, volunteer, and travel before applying. I also have a few prereqs to complete. I still plan on doing research with my profs from undergrad, so I will still have academic references that are fairly recent by the time I apply. My grad experience has been a real disappointment thus far. I just don't want to let a botched PhD cost me an opportunity to do something that's truly important to me.

 

I'm a decent spinster, and I think I can probably turn this whole debacle into good, character building experience when it's all said and done. I just have to be confident heading in that I'm not a marked man from the start.

[bloh]

I agree with f_d that it's not a red flag to not have a letter from your PhD supervisor. I didn't get a letter from my PhD supervisor simply because the profs I worked with while I was doing my master's also worked with me throughout undergrad and in non-research settings doing volunteer work and teaching together, so they were much more qualified to speak about the things med schools are interested in. They've known me for 10 years, and my PhD supervisor has known me for 3. I don't think I've even taken a class from him. All he could really talk about was my research ability, and I just felt like other people would be able to write me stronger letters.

 

And there are many reasons to leave a PhD that have nothing to do with you. I have a friend whose PhD supervisor died, and another friend whose supervisor spent two years in a mental hospital and now doesn't even know where he is most of the time because he's so heavily medicated.

 

Astrogirl, did you end up getting into a medical school? I suppose your situation is slightly different if you've known others for 10 years but even then, I don't see how you couldn't squeeze in a letter from your supervisor. Afterall, most schools require at least 3.

 

Ultimately, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I still think the majority of adcoms would raise their eyebrows at the issue unless you've covered your bases. I don't think there's anything wrong with leaving a PhD; we all grow and change, but it doesn't mean that you can't have your supervisor speak on your behalf if you've spent years with them. If the relationship was rough due to the supervisors personality, then getting someone in the middle to speak on your behalf about the issue (ex. a committee member in the department) would go a long way.

 

Chicago, your supervisors duties shouldn't be the obstacle in getting a good letter. Minus the dept head designation, you've pretty much described my supervisor. I know busy - trust me. I graduated a year ago and I still have an unedited manuscript on his "to do list". Sit him down, have a chat with him and emphasize how important getting his thumbs up is. I suppose my philosophy is that a clear hole in your application without a believable and substantiated explanation, leaves the adcoms to the imagination; and imagination is almost always worse than the truth.

[future_doc]

A credible explanation is required. The means to achieve may be with or without the supervisor. I am sure the OP knows what he is doing and now has a range of independent views for his consideration.

[Chicago Hopeless]

Astrogirl, did you end up getting into a medical school? I suppose your situation is slightly different if you've known others for 10 years but even then, I don't see how you couldn't squeeze in a letter from your supervisor. Afterall, most schools require at least 3.

 

Ultimately, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I still think the majority of adcoms would raise their eyebrows at the issue unless you've covered your bases. I don't think there's anything wrong with leaving a PhD; we all grow and change, but it doesn't mean that you can't have your supervisor speak on your behalf if you've spent years with them. If the relationship was rough due to the supervisors personality, then getting someone in the middle to speak on your behalf about the issue (ex. a committee member in the department) would go a long way.

 

Chicago, your supervisors duties shouldn't be the obstacle in getting a good letter. Minus the dept head designation, you've pretty much described my supervisor. I know busy - trust me. I graduated a year ago and I still have an unedited manuscript on his "to do list". Sit him down, have a chat with him and emphasize how important getting his thumbs up is. I suppose my philosophy is that a clear hole in your application without a believable and substantiated explanation, leaves the adcoms to the imagination; and imagination is almost always worse than the truth.

 

Me leaving the PhD will not go down well with my supervisor, nor anyone else in the department. That's just the way it is. I have a VERY neutral relationship with my supervisor and the professors I've taken classes with. By this I mean that if I were to continue with the program, and kiss serious butt the next year or two, I could potentially squeeze a letter out of a professor or two, and be on my merry way. On the other hand, if I bail now, I'll be blacklisted by these same people. Sounds rough, but it's the truth.

 

Now, suppose I decide to stick it out a little while longer--I have decided that pursuing the PhD to the end will never happen, for the sake of sanity--say, a year or two. I can probably get decent letters of recommendation from them, and they would probably support my decision. However, they will never be as good as the letters from my undergrad professors.

 

I had a wonderful experience in undergrad. I worked so closely with a number of professors, and we got to know each other inside the classroom and out. I've worked with one professor all over the world on research projects for the last seven years, though he hasn't taught me since I finished undergrad. These amazing profs helped me along so much (scholarships, prizes, grants, and, of course, grad school), I know that they would give me the best possible references for med school. But it's true, I will have this black mark in the form of an abandoned PhD on my record. I say abandoned, and not failed, because I'm leaving by choice. That being said, it's not like I was Good Will Hunting it up in grad school like I was in undergrad. I'm not saying I did poorly or anything, just very average.

 

I messed up. I should never have applied for the PhD in the first place. I was working on the MA, and I got all caught up in the worry game. Worried that I'd wasted all my effort on my earlier studies if I didn't pursue my education through to the PhD. My instincts told me that I really wanted to pursue something that gave me more purpose, something that would allow me to combine my passion for the humanities and science, something that wasn't so abstract and self-gratifying. In the end, I made the silly decision to continue with grad school because I couldn't figure out what else to do with my life.

 

Fast forward two years, and I've finally decided what I really want to accomplish with my life. The only problem now is that by pursuing med school, I will be quitting a PhD, and possibly left to look like a quitter, or at the very least non-committal.

 

You said committees would raise their eyebrows, but do you think they'd reject me outright because of my decision to leave the PhD? I won't be able to get support from anyone from my grad career, at least not the kind of support that I believe is needed to submit a strong application. I would be relying on my strong undergraduate record, and some very crucial life experiences to make up for this deficiency. You said I might be alright if I cover my bases. Could you be more specific? Assuming I cannot get a letter from anyone related to my grad career, and I was left to justify my situation through my ABS or personal statement, would I be doomed from the outset? Should I save my money and not bother applying?

[astrogirl]

Astrogirl, did you end up getting into a medical school? I suppose your situation is slightly different if you've known others for 10 years but even then, I don't see how you couldn't squeeze in a letter from your supervisor. Afterall, most schools require at least 3.

 

This is my first year applying, so I haven't gotten in anywhere yet, but I actually did what I did partly on the advice of a friend who was in a very similar situation. She chose to get letters from people who knew her better than her PhD supervisor did, and she got into several schools on her first try.