seanthan Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I'm coming from a school in the US so I'm not sure about this: is it okay to tell a program they're your top choice and you will rank them number 1? Or is this a violation? (To clarify, it is my intention to actually rank the program number 1 and I am not looking to mislead anyone) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuma Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 It is a violation for the program to solicit information from you as to where/how you will be ranking them. I don`t think that it is specifically a violation for you to volunteer this information. When I went through the carms process, we were advised not to divulge this information. For several reasons. You can always say you plan on ranking them highly, without being specifc. It really isn`t in your best interest to tell a program how you plan on ranking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 "13. Restriction on Persuasion An applicant and a residency program may express a high degree of interest in each other but may not make statements implying a commitment. The following activities shall be considered as breaches of this agreement and subject to the penalties as described in sections 20 and 21: a. An applicant making any verbal or written contract for appointment to a residency position prior to completion of the matching program; and b. An applicant requesting the ranking preference of a residency program." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Based on the CaRMS policy above, I'm not certain if it would be a violation, but 'love letters' aren't employed in Canada as they are in the US. You are free to express 'a high degree of interest,' which should suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanth Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I'm not sure I understand/agree with Satsuma's comment that it is not in my best interest to divulge which program is my top choice. (Assuming I'm not simply throwing out false information, it lets the program know it my clear cut top choice and not simply "highly ranked"; as for others, I would let them know they are highly ranked) I understand fully that I cannot solicit any information back from programs. As lactic folly mentioned perhaps this is more of a US practice, but I don't see why it isn't applicable and useful to some degree in Canada. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Well, I don't know the CaRMS interpretation, but a #1 letter could be construed as 'implying a commitment.' The overall pool in Canada is much smaller, with fewer programs/spots/candidates, and less variation among programs. I don't think there is the same desire in programs to find out candidates' preferences in hopes of gaining the prestige of not having to go down the rank list very far. If someone is thought to be an unlikely prospective recruit for whatever reason, they will simply be less likely to receive an interview. Once chosen for interview, I have been told by more than one program that they rank according to the strength of the candidates, even if historically those from other geographic areas don't tend to rank the program highly in return. The #1 letter can be construed as an attempt to have a program rank you higher for reasons other than your strength as a candidate and how much they liked you. Also, wouldn't you worry about other programs finding out? To add: I have to admit I did tell my program they were #1. However, this was when I was giddy with just having matched there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entkeener Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Is it against the official rules for programs to ask you? Yes. Will some programs ask you anyway? Definitely. In some cases they flat out asked, other times they asked in a subtle way. They also aren't supposed to ask you where else you got interviews, well some places did that too (I guess they want to be sure other schools also wanted you and thus that you're a 'strong' applicant). I guess there are "rules" and then there is reality. I'd suggest you play by the rules of the place you are interviewing at. If they ask you if it's your top choice, they probably are a program that cares about how you rank them, so be careful with how you respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DubZteR Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 I'm coming from a school in the US so I'm not sure about this: is it okay to tell a program they're your top choice and you will rank them number 1? Or is this a violation? (To clarify, it is my intention to actually rank the program number 1 and I am not looking to mislead anyone) If you interviewed at a program and deep down you know for sure it is your top choice, then it's reasonable to re-iterate to them in a letter why their program was your favorite. I'd be hesitant to flat out say I'd rank them number #1 unless I was asked (by the program). Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DubZteR Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 Based on the CaRMS policy above, I'm not certain if it would be a violation, but 'love letters' aren't employed in Canada as they are in the US. You are free to express 'a high degree of interest,' which should suffice. thank you letters aka love letters are definitely used by applicants in canada (in the very least, by applicants in the more competitive specialties). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DubZteR Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 Do Canadian programs send love letters to applicants like the American programs do? this i've not heard of ... but maybe someone else has? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 thank you letters aka love letters are definitely used by applicants in canada (in the very least, by applicants in the more competitive specialties). I know people send thank you letters... I don't know how common "I'm ranking you #1" letters are though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entkeener Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 Do Canadian programs send love letters to applicants like the American programs do? A few were sent out which were 'generic' on the ENT tour last year. I heard of a few people getting phone calls/ taken aside and promissed a spot, but sometimes you wonder whether or not it was true. In one case someone told me they got a chat from the program director at their top choice and they did match there, so who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Rock Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Agreed with above. Remember--you don't have to listen to programs and they don't have to listen to you. Look out for number one, don't lie to programs, and accept that weird stuff can happen on match day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bunny Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Does anyone know how thank you letters are received/perceived by program directors in Canada? What about thank you emails? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Probably depends on the program director. However, interview days do take a good chunk of time and effort to run, and I don't think it's inappropriate to send a thank you note (don't forget the program coordinator). Include: sincere appreciation, personalization (what you enjoyed about your conversation / the interview day / the program), how this reinforces your interest in the program Avoid: form letters, the appearance of insincerity, mistakes (don't misspell people's names) If you do decide to send a thank you note, I would lean towards an email sent as soon as possible after your interview (seeing as most interview invites go out by email anyway). Ranking decisions are made soon after the last interview, while candidates are still fresh in the committee members' minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThereIsAFracture Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Is it unprofessional to rank a program where you didn't interview? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Ha, not at all. You completed your application and paid for it, might as well get some satisfaction and closure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Rock Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Plus, you can screw with CaRMS statistics by putting a few programs that didn't interview as your 2nd through Xth picks, so that if you match to your real #2 choice, it will show up as being your 10th (or whatever) pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThereIsAFracture Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Plus, you can screw with CaRMS statistics by putting a few programs that didn't interview as your 2nd through Xth picks, so that if you match to your real #2 choice, it will show up as being your 10th (or whatever) pick. Oh, haha, I didn't even think about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuma Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 I'm not sure I understand/agree with Satsuma's comment that it is not in my best interest to divulge which program is my top choice. (Assuming I'm not simply throwing out false information, it lets the program know it my clear cut top choice and not simply "highly ranked"; as for others, I would let them know they are highly ranked) I understand fully that I cannot solicit any information back from programs. As lactic folly mentioned perhaps this is more of a US practice, but I don't see why it isn't applicable and useful to some degree in Canada. Any thoughts? Well, there are many. An obvious one...what if during the tour you change your mind? And you rank your #1 lower in the end and therefore don`t match to it. Hello burned bridges! This hapenned at one program I know of and the director was little impressed. Apparently the applicant had sworn up and down that this was where he/she wanted to be. And matched somewhere else. The PD essentially said, that applicant has lost his/her chances at ever coming to this place for training or a job. Further, in Canada, "it's a small world" and essentially the PD said that that news would spread and that he/she would be mistrusted anywhere after that. Back to the "it's a small world". PDs all know each other and talk. What if word gets out among them that place x is your first choice....then maybe place y wouldn`t rank you highly. There have been some comments about some programs soliciting this info even though it is a violation of the carms rules. It is true - some programs are more notorious for this than others. BUT - it is a game. Keep your wits about you and don`t take promises seriously. I know someone who was told by all places he/she interviewed in a certain specialty that he/she would be ranked high enough to get a spot. In the end this person didn`t even match to that specialty at all. And it was a shock come match day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 In a way you need to think of CaRMS, the same way you think about looking for a job in the private industry. Trust nobody and look out for #1. As for the previously mentioned applicant never being trusted in the rest of the country, that's probably an exageration derived from frustration. It'll be 4 or 5 years till the person is looking for a fellowship/job, most programs won't remeber. And other programs realize that: 1) CaRMS is a giant game and everyone plays it to try and maximize thier chances. 2) People's minds can change with respect to prefered program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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