orthopedic surgery

[sallmachine]

How competitive is it to match to an ortho program in Canada? How about at top programs like U of T? How can one make themselves an attractive candidate? I know it's a lot of questions but I'm really starting to think seriously about a future in orthopedics, I think I've FINALLY found a specialty I love. Also, if anyone can comment on the job market, negative or positive, improving or getting worse, guesses on how it will look after 10 years or so, etc. Thanks! Oh, if anyone can comment on the lifestyle of community orthopods, that would be helpful too! thanks.

[Handsome88]

You should first research these questions on your own if you want facts...you don't need opinions on these topics.

 

http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/CMA/Content_Images/Inside_cma/Membership/profiles/Orthopaedic-Surgery_e.pdf

 

But if you're looking for opinions then here are mine:

 

I think Ortho is not very competitive at this time.

I think orthopedics is going to become even more specialized in the future that you need to do even more fellowships after residency to get a job anywhere. I personally don't find that very attractive (I don't want to be just a "Thumb-doctor" or a "Hip-replacement-only-doctor").

[jnuts]

Wise words from the first year medical student...

[Handsome88]

Wise words from the first year medical student...

 

It's just an opinion. Sure I'm first year, but I did my research. Ortho surgery's job prospects are not great right now because people are pressed to subspecialize multiple times before getting a job.

 

You're obviously more knowledgeable about orthopedics from first hand experience so correct me if I'm wrong.

[coastalslacker]

It's just an opinion. Sure I'm first year, but I did my research. Ortho surgery's job prospects are not great right now because people are pressed to subspecialize multiple times before getting a job.

 

You're obviously more knowledgeable about orthopedics from first hand experience so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

[Cmed]

What's the link for the root page for all the specialty summaries?

 

You should first research these questions on your own if you want facts...you don't need opinions on these topics.

 

http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/CMA/Content_Images/Inside_cma/Membership/profiles/Orthopaedic-Surgery_e.pdf

 

But if you're looking for opinions then here are mine:

 

I think Ortho is not very competitive at this time.

I think orthopedics is going to become even more specialized in the future that you need to do even more fellowships after residency to get a job anywhere. I personally don't find that very attractive (I don't want to be just a "Thumb-doctor" or a "Hip-replacement-only-doctor").

[Handsome88]

What's the link for the root page for all the specialty summaries?

 

http://www.cma.ca/index.php?ci_id=53559&la_id=1

[sallmachine]

You should first research these questions on your own if you want facts...you don't need opinions on these topics.

 

http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/CMA/Content_Images/Inside_cma/Membership/profiles/Orthopaedic-Surgery_e.pdf

 

But if you're looking for opinions then here are mine:

 

I think Ortho is not very competitive at this time.

I think orthopedics is going to become even more specialized in the future that you need to do even more fellowships after residency to get a job anywhere. I personally don't find that very attractive (I don't want to be just a "Thumb-doctor" or a "Hip-replacement-only-doctor").

 

ya, i've seen that document. Its tough to make any strong conclusions from it though. I was hoping someone on this board might be in an ortho residency or have just matched to one, and might be able to shed some more light. Anyway, thanks for the opinions.

[jnuts]

I've just matched to ortho. There are a few things to say about that CMA document; but in answer to your specific questions:

 

As far as I know--and remember I'm just starting PGY-1--the job market for all types of surgery at the attending level isn't great right now. There are a lot of reasons I've heard for that being the case. In brief, the downturn has forced many senoirs to work longer, most Canadian provinces are short on OR space again, and the specific incentives brought in to reduce wait times for certain procedures are expiring in the near future. The general impression I have is that these effects are temporary, and that the job market will rebound by the time the current PGY-1's are looking around. I know I just criticised it, but take a look at the age breakdown of Surgeons in that CMA brief; that top heavy distribution is worse now than it was in 2007. Certainly in the States they are projecting a huge rise in the demand for orthopaedic surgery in the next decade or two and there's no reason to think the same thing isn't going to happen here.

 

In terms of competitiveness, it's really tough to gauge that based on the numbers that CaRMS gives out. First, the sample size is way too small to get anything reliable. Second, variables that CaRMS doesn't account for--like self-selection, non-interviewed applicants, and regional preference--would strain any attempt to data mine. The one thing I'd say is that very few ortho programs seem to be increasing residency spots so that may make things more competitive as time goes on.

 

To make yourself a competitive candidate I'd recommend knowing your orthopaedics and anatomy well enough to understand and field questions in the OR and clinics. Be helpful, keen, and friendly on wards without being annoyingly type A. 'Just-the-right type of anal' is what you're shooting for. Get your volunteering, extra-cirrics, and research in order and dump anything other than research that you're not doing at a high level (quality over quantity). All the self evident stuff.

 

If you've any other questions throw them on and I'll try get you an answer.

 

Now...

 

In general, the problem with the CMA document is that it's based on data from 2004-2007 and many things have changed.

 

The reason I was snarky to Handsome88 (and I'm sorry for doing that; finals stress had me a bit on edge), is primarily because she or he doesn't identify himself as an IMG medical student so those reading his posts can put the appropriate spin on the information he's presenting. I'm not trying to criticize the good work that he done looking into all this. But she or he made typical junior medical student mistakes in saying extreme sub-specialization is required to get a job, and by assuming that the current job crunch is a major factor in the competitiveness of the orthopaedics match.

 

The reason that qualified surgeons are doing multiple fellowships is simply that there aren't enough attending/consultant level jobs for surgeons right now. It's pretty widely acknowledged that once you get your top level job in a certain sub-specialty you pretty much forget everything you've learned in fellowships outside that subspecialty. In Handsomes88's example, there are no subspecialty fellowships and very few jobs for just for hip replacement, it's all arthroplasty. If you want to do a second fellowship, it'll likely be in something totally different like spine or sarc. The bottom-line is that multiple fellowships make you less specialized not more, and a tough job market means less specialization to cover multiple half-jobs not more.

[jnuts]

I've just matched to ortho. There are a few things to say about that CMA document; but in answer to your specific questions:

 

As far as I know--and remember I'm just starting PGY-1--the job market for all types of surgery at the attending level isn't great right now. There are a lot of reasons I've heard for that being the case. In brief, the downturn has forced many senoirs to work longer, most Canadian provinces are short on OR space again, and the specific incentives brought in to reduce wait times for certain procedures are expiring in the near future. The general impression I have is that these effects are temporary, and that the job market will rebound by the time the current PGY-1's are looking around. I know I just criticised it, but take a look at the age breakdown of Surgeons in that CMA brief; that top heavy distribution is worse now than it was in 2007. Certainly in the States they are projecting a huge rise in the demand for orthopaedic surgery in the next decade or two and there's no reason to think the same thing isn't going to happen here.

 

In terms of competitiveness, it's really tough to gauge that based on the numbers that CaRMS gives out. First, the sample size is way too small to get anything reliable. Second, variables that CaRMS doesn't account for--like self-selection, non-interviewed applicants, and regional preference--would strain any attempt to data mine. The one thing I'd say is that very few ortho programs seem to be increasing residency spots so that may make things more competitive as time goes on.

 

To make yourself a competitive candidate I'd recommend knowing your orthopaedics and anatomy well enough to understand and field questions in the OR and clinics. Be helpful, keen, and friendly on wards without being annoyingly type A. 'Just the right type of anal' is what you're shooting for. Get your volunteering, extra-cirrics, and research in order and dump anything other than research that you're not doing at a high level (quality over quantity). All the self evident stuff.

 

If you've any other questions throw them on and I'll try get you an answer.

 

Now...

 

In general, the problem with the CMA document is that it's based on data from 2004-2007 and many things have changed.

 

The reason I was snarky to Handsome88 (and I'm sorry for doing that; finals stress had me a bit on edge), is primarily because she or he doesn't identify as an IMG junior medical student so those reading her or his posts can put the appropriate spin on the information presented. I'm not trying to criticize the good work that's been done looking into all this. But she or he made typical junior medical student mistakes in saying extreme sub-specialization is required to get a job, and by assuming that the current job crunch is a major factor in the competitiveness of the orthopaedics match.

 

The reason that qualified surgeons are doing multiple fellowships is simply that there aren't enough attending/consultant level jobs for surgeons right now. It's pretty widely acknowledged that once you get your top level job in a certain sub-specialty you pretty much forget everything you've learned in fellowships outside that subspecialty. In Handsomes88's example, there are no subspecialty fellowships and very few jobs for just hip replacement, it's all arthroplasty. If specialization is something you'd like to avoid at all costs there's always community practice. If you want or need to do a second fellowship, it'll likely be in something totally different like spine or sarc. The bottom-line is that multiple fellowships make you less specialized not more, and a tough job market means less specialization to cover multiple half-jobs not more.

[sallmachine]

I've just matched to ortho. There are a few things to say about that CMA document; but in answer to your specific questions:

 

As far as I know--and remember I'm just starting PGY-1--the job market for all types of surgery at the attending level isn't great right now. There are a lot of reasons I've heard for that being the case. In brief, the downturn has forced many senoirs to work longer, most Canadian provinces are short on OR space again, and the specific incentives brought in to reduce wait times for certain procedures are expiring in the near future. The general impression I have is that these effects are temporary, and that the job market will rebound by the time the current PGY-1's are looking around. I know I just criticised it, but take a look at the age breakdown of Surgeons in that CMA brief; that top heavy distribution is worse now than it was in 2007. Certainly in the States they are projecting a huge rise in the demand for orthopaedic surgery in the next decade or two and there's no reason to think the same thing isn't going to happen here.

 

In terms of competitiveness, it's really tough to gauge that based on the numbers that CaRMS gives out. First, the sample size is way too small to get anything reliable. Second, variables that CaRMS doesn't account for--like self-selection, non-interviewed applicants, and regional preference--would strain any attempt to data mine. The one thing I'd say is that very few ortho programs seem to be increasing residency spots so that may make things more competitive as time goes on.

 

To make yourself a competitive candidate I'd recommend knowing your orthopaedics and anatomy well enough to understand and field questions in the OR and clinics. Be helpful, keen, and friendly on wards without being annoyingly type A. 'Just the right type of anal' is what you're shooting for. Get your volunteering, extra-cirrics, and research in order and dump anything other than research that you're not doing at a high level (quality over quantity). All the self evident stuff.

 

If you've any other questions throw them on and I'll try get you an answer.

 

Now...

 

In general, the problem with the CMA document is that it's based on data from 2004-2007 and many things have changed.

 

The reason I was snarky to Handsome88 (and I'm sorry for doing that; finals stress had me a bit on edge), is primarily because she or he doesn't identify as an IMG junior medical student so those reading her or his posts can put the appropriate spin on the information presented. I'm not trying to criticize the good work that's been done looking into all this. But she or he made typical junior medical student mistakes in saying extreme sub-specialization is required to get a job, and by assuming that the current job crunch is a major factor in the competitiveness of the orthopaedics match.

 

The reason that qualified surgeons are doing multiple fellowships is simply that there aren't enough attending/consultant level jobs for surgeons right now. It's pretty widely acknowledged that once you get your top level job in a certain sub-specialty you pretty much forget everything you've learned in fellowships outside that subspecialty. In Handsomes88's example, there are no subspecialty fellowships and very few jobs for just hip replacement, it's all arthroplasty. If specialization is something you'd like to avoid at all costs there's always community practice. If you want or need to do a second fellowship, it'll likely be in something totally different like spine or sarc. The bottom-line is that multiple fellowships make you less specialized not more, and a tough job market means less specialization to cover multiple half-jobs not more.

 

wow, thanks a lot! can you comment on the lifestyle of residents and also of attendings. I've heard conflicting info on how hardcore it is.

[Handsome88]

Apologies for not mentioning that I'm a preclinical med student. Added it to my signature.

[jnuts]

I think you get conflicting information because you're asking a very subjective question. A lot depends on rotation, how hard you work, and what you consider to be hard work. Anywhere from 60-100 hour weeks are 'normal'. I think the bottom line is that you'll need to pay attention to the big picture during your observerships, clerkship and electives to decide for yourself if the demands justify the rewards for you personally.

 

wow, thanks a lot! can you comment on the lifestyle of residents and also of attendings. I've heard conflicting info on how hardcore it is.