PBL... +/- and other thoughts

[ave]

Hi,

 

From students, I was wondering what your thoughts were on Mcmaster's approach.

 

Yes, I've heard a dozen times that there is lots of free time to go and pursue different things (go to extra anatomy sessions, have a life, etc)...

 

a) but from your own personal experiences... are you learning?

 

Does it seem less of a waste of time than pretty much every first year Science course? (i.e. memorize some useless details...vomit the info on the exam...forget everything subsequently)

 

c) I'm sure this has been answered before, but how are the large lectures?

 

d) Have YOUR small group sessions / tutorials (?) been productive?

 

I'm at the point where Mac seems like the best fit for me but I've been away from family from 3 years and going there means that I would spend another 3 years away from family... so now I'm obsessively weighing out options.

 

Thnx for indulging me!

[DanG8]

Hi,

a) but from your own personal experiences... are you learning?

 

Does it seem less of a waste of time than pretty much every first year Science course? (i.e. memorize some useless details...vomit the info on the exam...forget everything subsequently)

 

c) I'm sure this has been answered before, but how are the large lectures?

 

d) Have YOUR small group sessions / tutorials (?) been productive?

 

a) Yes.

 

Yes. Some students still treat PBL cases as brain-purges and miss the entire point. However, if you buy into the tutorial structure, you can really begin to enjoy the learning process. Sitting the library for a couple hours each day learning about some new aspect of medicine seems more like a puzzle to solve vs. a test to write.

 

c) It's a matter of personal opinion. Some are great and shouldn't be missed, some are terrible and shouldn't be shown. I think that's the same at any other school, though.

 

d) Yep. Beyond learning the content, you learn about group dynamics and group process. You learn about your role in groups and how your actions effect the group. This is a great bit of self-awareness to have as medicine is all about working in groups. If you're an arrogant know-it-all with no social skills, you're not going to make a good doctor (and probably be sued, license revoked, etc).

[ave]

Thanks for the great responses. I just thought of 2 more quick questions then.

 

- Roughly, how many hours a week are you in a traditional style lectures? (or, if it's easier...a range of hours that you've experienced)

 

- Also, how are Mac students assessed then? Still with end of block of exams?

 

Seriously, thanks again.

[enmeds]

Can someone also comment on how PBL at McMaster works? Is it more of a sharing session of information or more of a 'quizing' sessions with no papers and students randomly assigned topics discussed in the previous tutorial?

 

How does the anatomy work at McMaster Meds? Is it also self-directed? Do you have time in the labs with profs? Are there dissections or more prosections?

 

How do students find the limited breaks in regards to burn out?

 

Are professional competencies just lectures or are there assignments and things of that nature associated with them?

 

Thanks for any insight:)

[RajM]

Thanks for the great responses. I just thought of 2 more quick questions then.

 

- Roughly, how many hours a week are you in a traditional style lectures? (or, if it's easier...a range of hours that you've experienced)

 

- Also, how are Mac students assessed then? Still with end of block of exams?

 

Seriously, thanks again.

 

- Scheduled lecture time ranges from 6-12 hours per week. Some people I know attend almost all lectures, others rarely attend one. Lectures are optional, so you're free to customize your learning

 

- You will get information on this in your offer package and then more during O-week. In brief, the big "exams" we have are: monthly CAEs (short answer tests), thrice a year PPIs (MCQ), once a year OSCEs (MMI format, clinical exams). More importantly, you are evaluated longitudinally in your tutorials (by self, peers, and tutors) and by your clinical preceptors at any time through oral exams ("pimping").

 

There is a forum for newly admitted Mac MD students. You will have received the link for this in the letter from the Admissions Committee Student Reps. Check it out! There are upper years waiting to answer your questions there as well.

[itimebomb2]

Can someone also comment on how PBL at McMaster works? Is it more of a sharing session of information or more of a 'quizing' sessions with no papers and students randomly assigned topics discussed in the previous tutorial?

 

How does the anatomy work at McMaster Meds? Is it also self-directed? Do you have time in the labs with profs? Are there dissections or more prosections?

 

How do students find the limited breaks in regards to burn out?

 

Are professional competencies just lectures or are there assignments and things of that nature associated with them?

 

Thanks for any insight:)

 

Anatomy sucks at mac, admittedly. We have anatomy days once every three weeks and every so often interst groups put on special events. Anatomy is learned to some extent as a part of tutorial work. There are opposing opinions as to the efficacy of this teaching method -- one can argue that any clinically relevent anatomy will have been brought up and learned in the tutorial setting (and indeed is sometimes tested in CAEs). However, the surgery keeners definitely get the short end of the stick. Anatomy electives are a popular option for these people (dedicating one or two weeks during the summer electives in first year to learning anatomy).

 

Burn out... very difficult to do considering how laid back things are.

 

PC is also very laid back.

[dokta]

There is a forum for newly admitted Mac MD students. You will have received the link for this in the letter from the Admissions Committee Student Reps. Check it out! There are upper years waiting to answer your questions there as well.

 

Got the package in the mail and signed up for the forum, but the specific incoming MD module/program didn't work on the website. Or did I do it wrong?

[proton]

Hey dokta, does it say the start date in that package? I know mine will come soon enough but I really need to know that start date, would you mind sharing?

[goleafsgochris]

Anatomy sucks at mac, admittedly. We have anatomy days once every three weeks and every so often interst groups put on special events. Anatomy is learned to some extent as a part of tutorial work. There are opposing opinions as to the efficacy of this teaching method -- one can argue that any clinically relevent anatomy will have been brought up and learned in the tutorial setting (and indeed is sometimes tested in CAEs). However, the surgery keeners definitely get the short end of the stick. Anatomy electives are a popular option for these people (dedicating one or two weeks during the summer electives in first year to learning anatomy).

 

Burn out... very difficult to do considering how laid back things are.

 

PC is also very laid back.

 

Yeah, I would say "burn out" it pretty non-existant (even when you are in school, if you feel like slacking off you could pretty much pull under 20 hour weeks). However, people do get "sick of it." Being in school non-stop is grating, even if it is relaxed compared to undergrad.

 

Also, in clerkship (which the quoted poster has not experienced), burn out is a HUGE issue. Like you are pretty much doing 50-110 hours/week of clinical work (depending on rotation), plus exam studying, with 2 weeks off between Christmas and Christmas. I was burnt out like hell by October. By the end of clerkship, most will be far, far less motivated to show the perky, positive attitude at all times lol

[dokta]

Hey dokta, does it say the start date in that package? I know mine will come soon enough but I really need to know that start date, would you mind sharing?

 

Haha, the package maps out the next 3 years of our lives! August 29 is the first day of Orientation

[medhope2011]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I had a few questions on the PBL process. So my understanding is that students generate learning objectives early in the week and then present a few days later, spending the weekend to review the previous weeks work. My question is are the learning objectives broken down between the members so each is an expert in particular questions and shares it with the group or is it random allocation? Also, in regards to anatomy, so is there a lecture each week that goes with the case and students then go to anatomy lab? Are there bellringers at McMaster?

 

Thank you

[amska]

So my understanding is that students generate learning objectives early in the week and then present a few days later, spending the weekend to review the previous weeks work. My question is are the learning objectives broken down between the members so each is an expert in particular questions and shares it with the group or is it random allocation?

There are 2 three hour tutorials a week throughout all of preclerkship. Okies, this is how tutorial works:

Your first tutorial EVER: The group (not the facilitator) generates the learning objectives based on a case you are given. There are 1-4 cases per tutorial (you will get more as you move through preclerkship). It can be as many or as little objectives as the groups wants. If the group misses a key concept (ie. the topic of the case was hemophilia and there was no objective on the coagulation cascade), the facilitator will chip in and "nudge" you in that direction. The group decides if they want to assign one person to one objective, or if everyone wants to research all the objectives. This will change based on the group you have - you will have 5 tutorial groups in total through preclerkship. Everyone has to agree with the decision! You then go home, and you have 3 days to research your objectives.

Every tutorial after that: The next tutorial, the group then discusses the info they found on their learning objectives. Some groups like to have a presentation-style tutorial (ie everyone pitches in a few PPT slides and teaches each other a topic they are an "expert" on), but most groups will just start on one objective and it's more of a free-for-all - someone will give the basics, someone will go more in depth on something, someone will draw a diagram, someone will ask many questions, etc... I very much favoured the "everyone research all objectives". The facilitator will jump in if there's a "probing question" they want to ask, or if they have a cool story to share. They will also jump in if group dynamics are not working. When you are done your objectives, you read the next case, and set learning objectives for that one. You then go home, get the weekend to research, come back, discuss what you found, and repeat cycle.

 

Also, in regards to anatomy, so is there a lecture each week that goes with the case and students then go to anatomy lab? Are there bellringers at McMaster?

It always changes, but anatomy lectures/lab time are usually one half-day once a week. Sometimes anatomy lectures are thrown into the usual lecture times (Mondays, Fridays). Sometimes you will not have the lecture/lab time once a week. There are no anatomy tests and no bellringers. Anatomy is tested sometimes on your CAE (a written evaluation that doesn't count for anything that happens 3-4x/MF). A lot of students arrange extra anatomy sessions with the anatomists.

[inspiring-curmudgeon]

I thought that anatomy was once every 3 weeks in Hamilton, but once every week at the regional campuses. At least that's what the med students told me when I interviewed!

[amska]

I thought that anatomy was once every 3 weeks in Hamilton, but once every week at the regional campuses. At least that's what the med students told me when I interviewed!

It depends on the unit you're currently in. MSK needs more anatomy than Nephro, for example.

[goleafsgochris]

There are 2 three hour tutorials a week throughout all of preclerkship. Okies, this is how tutorial works:

Your first tutorial EVER: The group (not the facilitator) generates the learning objectives based on a case you are given. There are 1-4 cases per tutorial (you will get more as you move through preclerkship). It can be as many or as little objectives as the groups wants. If the group misses a key concept (ie. the topic of the case was hemophilia and there was no objective on the coagulation cascade), the facilitator will chip in and "nudge" you in that direction. The group decides if they want to assign one person to one objective, or if everyone wants to research all the objectives. This will change based on the group you have - you will have 5 tutorial groups in total through preclerkship. Everyone has to agree with the decision! You then go home, and you have 3 days to research your objectives.

Every tutorial after that: The next tutorial, the group then discusses the info they found on their learning objectives. Some groups like to have a presentation-style tutorial (ie everyone pitches in a few PPT slides and teaches each other a topic they are an "expert" on), but most groups will just start on one objective and it's more of a free-for-all - someone will give the basics, someone will go more in depth on something, someone will draw a diagram, someone will ask many questions, etc... I very much favoured the "everyone research all objectives". The facilitator will jump in if there's a "probing question" they want to ask, or if they have a cool story to share. They will also jump in if group dynamics are not working. When you are done your objectives, you read the next case, and set learning objectives for that one. You then go home, get the weekend to research, come back, discuss what you found, and repeat cycle.

 

 

It always changes, but anatomy lectures/lab time are usually one half-day once a week. Sometimes anatomy lectures are thrown into the usual lecture times (Mondays, Fridays). Sometimes you will not have the lecture/lab time once a week. There are no anatomy tests and no bellringers. Anatomy is tested sometimes on your CAE (a written evaluation that doesn't count for anything that happens 3-4x/MF). A lot of students arrange extra anatomy sessions with the anatomists.

 

I never had a group create ppt slides and present (I graduate this year). We always discussed the objectives. You apparently had a crazy group lol, literally creating slides and presenting?? That is outrageous, I have never heard that done.

 

Usually you just discuss the objectives one-by-one in your groups. You pitch in when you have something interesting to contribute. Now that I am done, in retrospect, it really was a very pleasent way to learn. Since joining premed101 about a month ago, I have become more and more nostalgic--I will really miss Mac!

 

 

As for anatomy--I have said this before in previous threads. Anatomy is light at Mac; you sort of passively learn it as needed clinically. IN CLERKSHIP THIS DOES NOT MATTER!!! I really didnt find that I ran into situations where my lack of anatomy knowledge was an issue. Yes, they teach more anatomy at U of T--my point is that it really is irrelevant once you get out there. Do they know more? Sure! If U of T had as part of their medical school a course on memorizing critiques of Ibsen, the U of T students would know more about Ibsen than us--and it would still be clinically not very relevant (except in cases where your patient is a playwright buff--you get my point, its pretty much clinically useless).