US? UK? Australia? Caribbean?

[macstjo]

Second year of M.Sc. at McMaster (Neuroscience) with B.Sc. Honours from University of Toronto (Life Science).

 

This is my original post on US Student Doctor Network forum.

 

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1. cGPA: 3.30 (4.0 --> 3.0 --> 3.3) in SIX YEARS due to a personal special circumstance (something that i always mention on secondary apps, like one of the greatest challenges, etc)

 

2. MCAT: took twice because of the first VR: 33O (13/6/O/14) April 2010 and 32Q (11/9/Q/12) June 2010

 

3. Two overseas medical trips in 2005 (Brazil) and 2009 (Angola) (one month each)

Surgical works, HIV+ kids and drug rehab visits, vaccination, Portuguese translator, etc.

 

4. EC works

- clinical shadowing at fracture clinic 200+ hours

- homeless shelter works

- teaching kids (government sponsored program)

- piano degree (private tutor)

- research abstracts+posters

- college science counsellor

- ywam program coordinator

- trinity college canadian-korean association vice-president

 

5. LOR

- 1 from my m.sc. thesis supervisor (ex-dean)

- 1 from co-supervisor

- 1 from grad professor

- 1 from a physician from the Angola medical mission trip

- 1 from the registrar at undergrad university

- 1 from a physician at facture clinic

(no premed committee present at Canadian undergrads)

 

6. NO US RESIDENCY; CANADIAN CITIZENSHIP

 

7. M.Sc. candidate in neuroscience

 

8. Race: asian

 

9. Undergrad: University of Toronto

Grad: McMaster university

 

10. 31 schools:

(I called every school to make sure they accept Canadian applicant)

 

Boston University School of Medicine

Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine

Creighton University School of Medicine

David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA

East TN State U., James H. Quillen Coll. of Med.

George Washington University Sch of Med & Hlth Sci

Georgetown University School of Medicine

Howard University

Jefferson Medical Coll. of Thomas Jefferson Univ.

Keck Sch. of Med.University of Southern California

Loma Linda University School of Medicine

Meharry Medical College

Michigan State University

New York Medical College

New York University

Oakland University William Beaumont School of Medicine

Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine

Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science

Stony Brook University - School of Medicine

SUNY Upstate Medical University

The Medical College of Georgia

Tufts University School of Medicine

Tulane University School of Medicine

University of Colorado School of Medicine

University of Hawaii John A. Burns Sch. of Med.

University of Minnesota Medical School-Duluth

University of Minnesota Medical School-Minneapolis

University of North Carolina School of Medicine

University of South Alabama College of Medicine

Warren Alpert Medical School of Brown University

Wayne State University School of Medicine

 

withdrew: Howard and NYMC; they require undergrad LOR, I don't have any

rejected: Wayne State (GPA cutoff) and Minnesota-Duluth (American Indian EC required)

 

Now, i'm waiting for response from the rest, 27 schools.

 

I know my chances are really dismal, considering only a couple of spots are available for international applicants every year for some schools, but thinking that most Canadian schools GPA cutoff is well over 3.8, I thought I might as well take a shot. Not into DO.

 

Thanks!

 

(also considering caribbean, uk, australian schools)

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Basically, I got slapped everywhere, saying I'll get rejected from all 31 schools in the US, or just I should reconsider and look into UK or Caribbean, or even DO. I don't want freaking DO (never asked for), but I might consider UK or Caribbean, or even Australia.

 

Here are my options: (if I get rejected from US)

1. SMP (special master's program)

You take classes with real medical students in real medical school (only in US I think).

Usually 1-2 years. Same tuition, same place, same exam, etc.

Get good grades and come out clean, reapply. Higher chance of acceptance at US medical schools. (Prove that your undergrad GPA is not real)

 

2. Irish (Atlantic Bridge Program)

Easy to get into. Risky, because you don't know where you might end up.

 

3. UK

 

4. Caribbean

c'mon

 

5. Australia

 

6. 2nd undergrad

 

This is the order of my current preference.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

[keepontrying]

So what is your question? You want posters to confirm whether your plan is yay or nay?

 

Assuming this is your question, you applied to way too many schools, including ones that you will never get in with your current stats (UCLA, NYU, Case, USC, SUNY, Brown, Minnesota, etc). If your sci gpa is high, then you may have a shot at some of the other schools.

 

Irish schools are not difficult to get into, but with your stats, I wouldn't say it's EASY to get into for some of the schools. Australia is probably a better option.

 

UK schools require UKCAT, you know that right? They don't look at your MCAT unfortunately, and UKCAT is more like an aptitude test and it can be difficult. Don't think your MCAT success can auto-translate to UKCAT.

 

I would move 2nd undergrad higher on your list if you want to expand your choices to other Canadian schools. As a graduate applicant, have you tried UofT?

[macstjo]

So what is your question? You want posters to confirm whether your plan is yay or nay?

 

Assuming this is your question, you applied to way too many schools, including ones that you will never get in with your current stats (UCLA, NYU, Case, USC, SUNY, Brown, Minnesota, etc). If your sci gpa is high, then you may have a shot at some of the other schools.

 

Irish schools are not difficult to get into, but with your stats, I wouldn't say it's EASY to get into for some of the schools. Australia is probably a better option.

 

UK schools require UKCAT, you know that right? They don't look at your MCAT unfortunately, and UKCAT is more like an aptitude test and it can be difficult. Don't think your MCAT success can auto-translate to UKCAT.

 

I would move 2nd undergrad higher on your list if you want to expand your choices to other Canadian schools. As a graduate applicant, have you tried UofT?

 

Thanks keepontrying.

Your answer is probably one of the best ones I've ever got.

 

1. yes, I asked for yay or nay

2. my sci GPA is even lower (officially gave up my hope on US schools as of today)

3. filling out my application to Irish schools today

4. thinking of Australia too

5. planning to take UKCAT, probably need some research on this

6. can't imagine myself in another undergrad, hopefully this never happens

7. didn't even bother uoft. with my gpa? (laugh) i don't know if you said that as a compliment or sarcasm, but i don't see any point of applying at all (please correct me if i'm wrong, which i really, really do hope)

 

I never expected if someone would answer to all the questions I posted, and I'm quite surprised. It'd be really appreciated if you could answer to any further questions I might have.

 

Again thanks.

[keepontrying]

No the UofT suggestion was not a sarcasm at all because they look at graduate applicants differently. Your undergrad gpa means something but your graduate productivity (research, publications, etc) means even more. If you have a killer personal statement plus reference letters, they can carry you far. Check the acceptance threads under UofT and you'll see what I mean.

 

2nd undergrad does suck, I know. It's like going backwards but if you want to offset a poor first undergrad gpa, it's a great option. SMP can be risky too because the materials are really tough from what I heard and I don't know if your chances would be that much better as a non-US citizen. You would need to do some research on that.

[medigeek]

I don't understand why you dont want to go the DO route. You have to remember that after it's all said and done... you need to get a residency spot in Canada (unless you dont want to live in Canada after?). Better to go DO and get into family med and become a family doctor... than lets say... get an MD from a mediocre carribean school and not match into a residency here in Canada.. or even worse from somewhere else in the world which REALLY limits your odds of matching here..

 

I hate to play around like some other people do when discussing these things but from what ive understood, it's either be 26-27 before starting medical school (best case scenario) in north america OR go the DO route or... get an MD and not match.

[IamIDP]

I don't understand why you dont want to go the DO route. You have to remember that after it's all said and done... you need to get a residency spot in Canada (unless you dont want to live in Canada after?). Better to go DO and get into family med and become a family doctor... than lets say... get an MD from a mediocre carribean school and not match into a residency here in Canada.. or even worse from somewhere else in the world which REALLY limits your odds of matching here..

 

I hate to play around like some other people do when discussing these things but from what ive understood, it's either be 26-27 before starting medical school (best case scenario) in north america OR go the DO route or... get an MD and not match.

 

I know this may be a stupid question but what's the DO route?

 

And I wouldn't consider doing a 2nd undergrad, realistically you spend 6 years doing 1 undergrad and why do another 4 when you can go to the Caribbeans or UK or US medical schools and complete medical school within those 4 years. I would suggest doing 1 more year and pulling your grades if possible and then reapply to the US and Canada, if that doesn't work I would study in the Caribbeans or UK. Good luck

[medigeek]

I know this may be a stupid question but what's the DO route?

 

And I wouldn't consider doing a 2nd undergrad, realistically you spend 6 years doing 1 undergrad and why do another 4 when you can go to the Caribbeans or UK or US medical schools and complete medical school within those 4 years. I would suggest doing 1 more year and pulling your grades if possible and then reapply to the US and Canada, if that doesn't work I would study in the Caribbeans or UK. Good luck

 

Getting a DO instead of an MD which would disadvantage you (maybe) from the top specialties but good ol family med! or at least a better speciality in a crapper location (ex. not toronto).

 

Problem with international is what do you do when you get back and you can't match?

[kylamonkey]

I would dare say that most of the people on this forum accepted with a GPA like yours did so by doing a second undergrad. GPA is still king in Canada, and you don't even show an upward trend. You will not get past the initial GPA screening, and they won't care abuot a "special circumstance". Not in the least. Exceptions: if you are aboriginal, or a resident of SK, AB, maybe MN or an atlantic province. Or Quebec, or francophone.

 

If you want to do a second undergrad, know that you are going to have to do a 2-yr program, KILL your courses, and still show a level of commitment to ECs. You're going to have to work 5x harder than the average student coming from highschool.

 

Sorry to be a downer, but I'm calling it the way I see it.

 

If you are interested in Ireland or Australia you should check out the international forum here.

[IamIDP]

Getting a DO instead of an MD which would disadvantage you (maybe) from the top specialties but good ol family med! or at least a better speciality in a crapper location (ex. not toronto).

 

Problem with international is what do you do when you get back and you can't match?

 

Well they can always do their residency in the US or another country then apply for a licence in ontario. You don't necessarily need to do residency in Canada.

[tooty]

no double posting please.

[Mashmetoo]

This is quite an interesting thread.

 

A few quick facts about US Osteopathic physicians:

 

Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Ronald R. Blanck, D.O., was the 39th Surgeon General of the United States Army (1996 to 2000). He is a doctor of osteopathic medicine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgeon_General_of_the_United_States_Army

 

Former President George Bush's personal physician was a D.O..

http://www.tomf.org/osteopathic-medicine/faqs/facts-about-osteopathic-medicine-osteopathic-physicians

 

Dean of my school: 1 star admiral in the US navy, also a DO.

 

What makes you think you are so above going to a DO school?

[macstjo]

This is quite an interesting thread.

 

A few quick facts about US Osteopathic physicians:

 

Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Ronald R. Blanck, D.O., was the 39th Surgeon General of the United States Army (1996 to 2000). He is a doctor of osteopathic medicine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgeon_General_of_the_United_States_Army

 

Former President George Bush's personal physician was a D.O..

http://www.tomf.org/osteopathic-medicine/faqs/facts-about-osteopathic-medicine-osteopathic-physicians

 

Dean of my school: 1 star admiral in the US navy, also a DO.

 

What makes you think you are so above going to a DO school?

 

Seriously, do you want me to start the list of "a few quick facts about US Medicine physicians"?

 

edit: no offense

[keepontrying]

Well they can always do their residency in the US or another country then apply for a licence in ontario. You don't necessarily need to do residency in Canada.

 

I think you're missing the point. You can of course do the residency in the US or another country, but WILL you get those spots? Chances are not good even in US due to the increasing number of local graduates competing for the residency spots. Unless you're a citizen of other countries (Aus, UK), you'll have a tough time matching there too. I may come across as pessimistic, but it's better to be safe than sorry. You won't want to gamble with such a huge amount of debt.

[macstjo]

I want to thank all of you with all the invaluable answers and useful advice and facts and what not. You guys all rock

 

So, I have cleared up my mind and had some thought for myself of what I should do next:

 

1. apply to the atlantic bridge program (ireland), all seven schools

deadline november, get in, learn some irish, dance, fly

 

2. at the same time, aim for caribbean in september (backup)

 

3. if both fail, australia

apply in may, interview, get in, dance, fly in february

 

4. if all above fail, apply for smp in may

 

5. if still fail, 2 more years in undergrad

 

criticism, sarcasm, warm advice, anything i'll accept with gusto

 

oh, and i do NOT mind not being able to come back to canada, but it'll hurt a bit if i can't make it to US

i would rather not stay in UK or australia

[keepontrying]

Just wondering if there's a reason why you would pick caribbean over australia? Considering that you seem to have concerns about the DO stigma, what about the carib stigma? If you can pass all the exams in a carib school (i.e. leviathan), then you more than qualified because from what I have heard, the exams are hard. But the stigma remains so if you can't match in US, I'm not sure where else you can go with a carib MD degree.

[macstjo]

Just wondering if there's a reason why you would pick caribbean over australia? Considering that you seem to have concerns about the DO stigma, what about the carib stigma? If you can pass all the exams in a carib school (i.e. leviathan), then you more than qualified because from what I have heard, the exams are hard. But the stigma remains so if you can't match, I'm not sure where else you can go with a carib MD degree.

 

That was one of my questions.

I do not value carib over aus, as far as I know, they are equal to me. The fact that aus is just too far away from where i'm now is my only concern.

[keepontrying]

Fair enough. As long as you are making an informed choice, then it's all good.

[Slashsev01]

i think its called the small **** syndrome....

 

when you know YOU cannot cut it..you often get the ferrari or the humV (do they still make them anymore?)..to make your self look bigger

 

same thing here...

 

oohh well..more spots for me

 

its funny too..how people HAVENT EVEN SEEN THE AUST schools-believe that they will fit in automatically...what waste of $500K on an education

[Slashsev01]

people are like..ohh well..ill pay my 500k..go to school and be a doctor

 

yet i havent even seen the schools, seen the campus, the professor, how to get to school, the food, what clinical exposure they have, or even what the weather is like..ahahaha

 

good stuff

[filter105]

I would cheer for you, seems like you are pretty set on your decision for MD.

Since you have MSc, and reasonable MCAT score, you would stand a very good chance for schools in Australia that I'm sure (However you should do some research about which school - med in oz outlines medschool in australia, 1 or 2 year outdated, but information is well organized).

 

Seems like US option is nay because of GPA, even though they are more holistic than Canada, they do put lot of emphasis on GPA especially if you are international it seems (out of state).

 

Carribean - I kind of stayed away from this route because of residency situation in US (it will continuously decrease with med school in states increasing enrollment and new med schools opening... cheaper than OZ route, but rather than med school, you have to take it as a cram school for

USMLE.

 

Irish - with Euro going down might be worth it? its nice...living expense is high, but that is also same for Australia...closer to Canada and option for travel however.

 

SMP - you will be competing with many domestic students.

 

 

 

If you improve on MCAT verbal score to like 13 or 14 I think you might actually have a pretty good chance at McMaster...(although they don't take that many non-trad applicants, most of their students: female, early 20, was enrolled in health sci at Mc).

 

 

I wish you luck!

[MedPen]

I would dare say that most of the people on this forum accepted with a GPA like yours did so by doing a second undergrad. GPA is still king in Canada, and you don't even show an upward trend. You will not get past the initial GPA screening, and they won't care abuot a "special circumstance". Not in the least. Exceptions: if you are aboriginal, or a resident of SK, AB, maybe MN or an atlantic province. Or Quebec, or francophone

 

I didn't get why QC is an exception. Are you saying you don't need a high GPA to get into med in QC?