Guest Presuming Ed Posted January 21, 2002 Report Share Posted January 21, 2002 Hey BMY, from your brief description I'd say you would enjoy law school. It has a very analytical, critical thinking-based system of learning and teaching. If you enjoy reading, can cull necessary facts from reams of info, and logically come to conclusions, you will enjoy it and do well. As for the PRACTISE of law, your background and interests suggest you may enjoy anything from hardcore corporate/securities law, to child welfare or family law. Most law schools offer a wide variety of courses so you have time to develop areas of interest. Also, should you pursue a career in law, your articling year provides further opportunities to determine your ultimate interests and aptitudes. In terms of law school reputation or prestige, U of T, Western, Queens and Osgoode Hall (York U) are tops in Ontario. McGill, Dalhousie, UCalgary also have excellent law schools. In my view, there are no "bad" law schools in Canada, in fact, most big American firms will take almost any Canadian graduate because of the more consistently good educations our few law schools offer, at least compared to the WIDE variety of schools on offer in the US. If international mobility is something you're considering, corporate law, securities, banking, intellectual property law (science background good for that) are best bets. either way you end up, best of luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bmy1 Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest uwomd Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 You are so full of crap. I have never posted to a forum on the net before, but your posts needed to be challenged. I will refrain from calling you any names, as that is what people who can't make their point resort to. To start, I was on Google searching for people in Canada, who held both LLB's and MD's when I came across this forum. Needless to say, I decided that I would browse to see what were the present-day concerns of medical students (and students-to-be). I will keep this very short. Your numbers don't add up, your reasoning is full of holes, and your figures are not accurate. First, if you made $302K in your first year as you claim...did you not have any overhead expenses? Well let's assume not (very unlikely) so you were in a 51% tax bracket soooo...deduct $150K(rounded), leaves you with about 150K. Now take pay $100K in student loans, etc. leaves you with $50K. Now add in all your other incidentals like food, clothing, entertainment, insurance, gasoline, professional association costs, CMPA, etc, etc. I won't even hazard a guess as to how much that would be for someone who has as much as you that is so expensive (rolling eyes right now). So you roll into your second year with a loss and it's not getting any brighter, so you buy a Porsche 911 (base cost 1999- $130K, 2000- $140K). A $700K mortgage at 7.00% amortized over 25 years costs about $5400 a month...you see where I'm going with this? So you are now in the hole already. How did you pay for your mortgage in your second year of practice after you blew all your money (after taxes and other expenses, of course) on the Porsche? We still have not taken into account your practice expenses of rent, personnel costs, fees, etc. the list goes on. I'm sure many of your colleagues (I use the term hesitantly) would like to know how you could operate on such a budget, keeping your costs down so low that you can afford what you supposedly have. Sorry about the long first point but....you claim that the cap was $352K in your second year. In fact, it was $330K and you would have not only experienced clawbacks (threshold payment adjustments) at the time (immediate) but being a recent graduate your cap would have been even less at the time, and you would have been fee discounted. The government starts to claw back as soon as you exceed the cap bud; they do keep records you know. links that may help you out: www.pairo.org/whatsnew/eliminate2.html www.gov.on.ca/health/engl...l4367.html (look at date and at threshold/cap) www.gov.on.ca/MOH/english...l4335.html (look at date and at threshold/cap) There are many other sites that show your figures are off, but enough of that. Afford me some latitude with this. How in the hell did you bill so much to OHIP in your first two years out? To bill this much you would have had to have at least five exam rooms, one or two nurses, and a receptionist. I would like to know how you set up your office/practice and how much it cost you to do so...hmmm, more capital costs that you failed to mention. Of all my classmates, not one (that I am aware of, at least) billed anywhere near that in their first two years of general practice. The more I think about this, the more I start to think that you are not really an MD (really, how many males does Mac graduate anyway?), but merely a kid who has nothing better to do with his time than to spend it on forums such as this with bravado and deceptions. You are trying to make MD's look like materialistic, self-centred losers whose only solace in their stressful lives are the dollar signs at the end of the day (although, in a significant minority of situations, this may be the case). If you were "oriented towards money", as you say, you would not have made such blatant mistakes of simple arithmetic and accounting in your posts. I am looking forward to your reply to this post. To Sharon at UofT yr3, if you think that the monetary rewards of medicine are that exceptional, you and anyone else who thinks that way shall be thoroughly and quickly enlightened when you begin to practise. Sorry if I sound pessimistic or cynical, but it's the truth. I'm still trying to figure out how you fell for macmd's little rant hook, line, and sinker. To the rest of you, I'm sorry I wanted to keep this short, but many points needed to be made. Don't let guys like this get away with the stuff he's spewing, inaccuracies that could easily be found to be such with a simple search on the net. I hope that there were others out there who saw through this guy as well. Lastly, as I started and where I shall end, the start of this forum was about LLB's who have become MD's, I happen to be travelling in the other direction. This is how I came upon this forum. All the best to all and keep your eyes wide open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chris Bell Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 Hi there I'm just really curious why you are switching from medicine to law after all of that schooling and expense. Is there anything you would like prospective MD's to know about the profession. All I hear about are the positives, i would love to know about the drawbacks that have caused you to make such a drastic move. Thanks alot Chris Bell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chris Bell Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 Hi there I was also wondering if you could explain the clawback system for new MD's thank you. I also dont agree with those numbers, I think everyone has this perception that doctors make alot but in Ontario the government has really limited the salaries. I remember when I volunteered in a specialists medical practice I saw alot of Ford Taurus and Chryslers but no Porsches, just alot of talk from the new associates about how they would literally be paying back their student loans for the next 25 years Thanks again for your input Chris Bell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gus K Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 I was just browsing through this site and just thought I'd add in some personel experiences from an older fart. After finishing a BSc. at UofT, I decided to accept an offer of acceptance into Dentistry at UofT. At the time, I had also applied into Medicine in a few schools (Queen's, Western, Ottawa) and managed to make the waiting list at Western and Queen's but had no luck in getting an offer. My GPA was pretty good (at least my final 3 years were) but my non-academic stuff was pretty @#%$. I had no volunteer experience whatsoever and my letters and references were pretty lame. Within about 3 months into the Dentistry program, I realized I made a mistake (or so I managed to convince myself at the time) and decided to drop out. The next year I decided to apply into Law since it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Big mistake. I got into Queen's and Osgoode and took Osgoode's offer. I lasted 3 months into the program and dropped out by Christmas. I found law to be extremely dry and boring. The only field more boring (for me) is business and accounting. I realized I enjoy science and never would I make that mistake again. It was then that I decided to give Meds one more chance. The following year I applied into 3 out-of- province schools: Alberta, Saskatchewan and Calagary. I got an acceptance offer in Saskatchewan in early June and was offered an interview in Alberta. I never went to Alberta as I decided to accept the offer in Saskatchewan. After screwing up so many interviews, I guess I actually did well in the Saskatchewan one. But, guess what? By Christmas in my second year, I was pretty fed up with school and the long, cold winters in Saskatchewan and asked for a year off. They offered it to me but I never returned. Not sure why I never went back because medicine was by far the most interesting of the 3 with law a distant third. Maybe I was just too lazy or immature. Anyway, skip to the present...I'm currently working as a carpenter/renovator and am kinda regreting that I never finished medicine or anything else in the sciences for that matter. Moral of the story? Not sure...but if I could do it over again I would have chosen a back-up that was more interesting and yet practical and fit my personality-pharmacy, radiation technology or physical therapy comes to mind. Gus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chris Bell Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 This has to be the craziest thing I have ever heard Is this for real? You actually went to all of these professional programs and ended up doing none of them, your intellectual talents are wasted But why the dramatic switch from academic careers to carpentry, wasn't there a middle of the road solution like research or pharmacy or optometry I just to get it!!! Chris Bell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kkastelic Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 Thanks for the post womd! As a mature applicant who works in a hospital (as a psychologist in psychiatry) I have the pleasure of working with alot of docs, psychiatrists and GPs mostly and when I ask them about "real life medicine" the odds are pretty evenly split between being supportive of people going into medicine and others saying "what are you crazy and masochistic?" All think I would be a great doctor so I take that as a compliment but all too say that medicine in north america has changed so much and is changing that medicine is now "just a trade and will suck you dry." "I work more now away from my family, I can't take vacations because there are no locums, I have a brutal on call regime, the malpractice insurance is extreme (30,000 +) and the compensation is shrinking." Its hard to keep my enthusiasm up when I get such feedback as this!!! Not to mention the 1998, 1999, and 2000 PRQ surveys of Canadian physicians (see the CMA website and search) points to "a dispirited profession with low morale." GOSH! Don't get me wrong. I am still dedicated to meds, I still have a dream of being a doctor. I still think its a noble and good profession. However, in the face of such real life feedback, I have to say ambivalence is creeping in. So, I have just tried to focus on the 50% who still love being a doctor. But, as a prospective med student...you have to start to wonder when so many current docs are unhappy. Thanks for some honest feedback!! Better to go in with our eyes open! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 It's easy to get caught up in undergrad with the idea of getting into medicine. In first year at times it seemed like all the arts students were shooting for law, all the commerce students for MBAs, and the science students for Medicine. Medicine has a certain romantic/idealistic aura to it - just check out any pop culture references to the career. For example TV: "ER" protrays docs as gorgeous people whose careers are filled with excitement and truly helping people, the female characters on "Friends" have made several comments about how attractive physicians, "Seinfeld" featured an episode where Elaine desperately tried to get her boyfriend to pass his MD licensing exam so she'd be dating a doctor only to have him dump her because "it's every med student's dream to become a doctor so they can dump the person they're with and find someone better, and "The Cosby Show" protrayed a obstetrician who was well respected and had lots of time for his family and never had to make call (yeah, right!). I'm only in 1st year meds so don't really know what the career is so far, but so far the TV show that seems to most accurately protray life as a physician is "Scrubs." The doctors and residents on that show are overworked, often stressed out, make mistakes, sometimes go a little crazy, and in the end are portrayed as being very human. They often complain about their careers but also ultimately love what their doing. I think that's the best way to think of medicine. It's a great career but not the idealized paradise it's sometimes made out to be by parents of premeds and society as a whole. It's a career that if you want to do for the sake of it as a career is amazing, but can be hell if you went into it thinking of it as a paradise or for the wrong reasons. Which is why one of my favourite scenes of "Scrubs" is the one where the main character's consultant (can't remember the guy's name but he always calls the resident "Newbie") is asked why he went into Medicine. He responds: "Four words: chicks, money, power, chicks." He then deconstructs the reasons why those things aren't fallacies of medicine. If these are your reasons for going into the career, seriously think again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest beenthere Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 The money is not there anymore, trust me I completed my residency last year and the money is simply no longer there, I cant speak for the US but I know with managed health care the salaries have dropped dramatically there and will continue to do so. In Ontario, I had an interview where I was competing against 25 other applicants for a Cardiology position. the salary....a whooping 60,000. thats going to complement my 1700 montly loan payment "quite nicely" I dont know about scrubs, yeah maybe on a TV show you can have a few laughs but in the real world its hard to laugh at what physicians have been degraded to with the cuts to ohip billing allowances and the exponential increase in student debt. I have had 12 friends who have left medicine here in Ontario alone, they just dont see it being a proscpective future at this point. Many have gone to do MBA's and work in health care consulting or Drug companies. They tripled their salaries and are very happy not having the government determine how much food they will put on the table. Alot of these firms also paid off their student debts (ah the private sector, you gotta love it!) And there are countless other stories www.vault.com/community/mb/mb_main.jsp?forum_id=6086&ch_id=250 So for those of you who dont get into med school dont be dissappointed, the system just did you favour Chow for Now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest strider2004 Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 Before everyone starts jumping ship I want you all to realize that every profession has its ups and downs. An MD/MBA can be quite restricting. You'll only be allowed in the health care sector and in what position? My sis works in a high profile firm and she had 600 applications for one job(research assistant paying $37k/yr). They interviewed 3 people. Many of these applications came from people with MBAs and some MBA/MDs. Here's the truth: a firm is hesitant to hire you because you are overqualified for a position like that. Why would they hire somebody who is more qualified than they are? The only place you could go with a doctorate is high up and that's difficult to do because you don't have the business experience. How do you get the experience? Start with a low-apying job? But you can't get the low paying job because you're overqualified. See the dilemna? The Ivey School of Business at UWO publishes stats for its graduates. I believe the starting salary after graduating is about $65k compared to $55k before school. So after spending $50k on an education, you make an additional $10k/year. Sure, you'll rise quickly but don't think that an MBA will guarantee a six-figure salary. If you want to make a good living but don't think you can do it in medicine DO NOT LEAVE HEALTH CARE. The MD opens doors that other degrees do not. A doctorate shows that you have a level of expertise in a certain field. You also form networks with high income individuals. This gives you a very important factor: CAPITAL. If you want to establish a business venture, you need capital and your medical friends can help you with it. OHIP billing is only one way to make money. What about those guys to run MDS labs? Are you a radiologist? Open up a scanning clinic. You bill for reading scans and you also bill for doing the scan. Are you a family doc? Talk to your pharmacist friends. They'd LOVE to open a drug store next to your office. Have friends in PT? Do the same thing. Open a health care centre with a drug store and rehab clinic. Lease the space to pharmacists and rehab specialists. Don't have money to build it? Talk to your bank. They'll give you as much as you want. You're a certified MD with a sound business plan. Think I'm kidding? I got this all from a financial advisor. Sure she's my mom, but she gives it to me straight up. The public health care system is changing and many feel that the private sector will play a more important role. The government knows that the health care sector is hurting. They're going to add more money or open it up to private investors. Don't fret. There's hope for the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest recentUWOMD and MBA grad Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 Graduates of Western's MBA program 2001 earned an average starting salary of $128,000 with average signing bonuses of $25,461, I should know I graduated from that class and currently work at Mckinsey consulting in the health care group I have posted the link for your reference under reports in the left hand column click on placement results and then click open the PDF full report to get the detailed breakdown of salaries. Even undergrads from western's business program called HBA have average starting salaries of 65,000-75,000 and these guys are only 22 years old with only their undergrad debt to worry about. (again on the link). So as far as MD/MBA's let alone MBA's going for 37K jobs, it is highly unlikely, students from top business schools are highly sought after and command a six figure salary which increases as they progress in their careers. I know where you guys are I did medicine first (UWO meds 97), it was my obsession till I went through residency and realized do I really want to be pissed on by these patients who show no respect, be immersed in a health care system that is clearly broke with no chance to fix it, feel helpless with all the cutbacks resulting in substandard care. I was then offered an excellent position and McKinsey and I have never looked back, I work with 5 other MD's in the health care group and it is awsome, we are currently designing an international aquisition for two global pharma companies. We get to use our medical knowledge by assessing clinical trails and valuing drug development and we also explore the strategic business side of potential mergers and acquisitions. We have the chance to fly around the world and meet with CEO's in order to craft the future of their companies. I probably make 3 times what an experienced specialist with 15 years experience makes and my salary will continue to rise in the millions as partner whereas the physician? Well if the health care system is privatized I think 60,000 will seem generous for a cardiologist, this is due to the fact that the physician market is not currently saturated due to the number of people who go to docs more freely due to the price ($0). However the market will not be able to support sufficient demand once privatization is introduced and trust me it will be. So if anyone wants to discuss alternatives please feel free to post Good Luck www.ivey.uwo.ca/recruiter <a href=http://www.ivey.uwo.ca/recruiter >http://www.ivey.uwo.ca/recruiter </a> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest strider2004 Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 "Well if the health care system is privatized I think 60,000 will seem generous for a cardiologist, this is due to the fact that the physician market is not currently saturated due to the number of people who go to docs more freely due to the price ($0)." I don't understand this point. It goes against the US model of health care. Releasing the health care system to the private sector allows supply and demand to moderate the prices. Currently the prices are fixed with a demand that far outstrips the demand - hence the long waiting lists. With creating a parallel private sector, pulls people off the public sector waiting list. This new private sector is full of people who will pay a premium to get services quicker. The counter-argument is that there may be too many physicians going to the private sector which may again increase the waiting list in the public sector. I can't comment on the summarized figures from the recruitment document because only 66% of the MBA grads replied to the survery and 17% were still looking for a job. I don't mean that all physicians will make more than all MBA grads. I mean that you don't need an MBA to make money, just as an MBA won't guarantee you a fortune. Your individual financial success is not based on your degree, but your ability to use your degree to its maximum abilities. I also know physicians(my tutors) who spearhead clinical trials for drug companies in multiple countries with degrees in epidemiology, not business. Stock options are easy to come by when you're working with drug companies. I'm getting ahead of myself. Go into medicine if you want to help people. But if you're in medicine and you're worried about money, don't be. I like talking about this stuff. Please keep this thread going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 I don't know about MBA being superior to the MD. . . I play rugby with many of the Ivey MBA students. A few of them have been set up with wicked jobs from before and are pretty much doing the MBA for a promotion. It's true, they're set - I know one guy already guaranteed a job @ $200,000 American starting salary. The rest of them are stressed out as all else because of the downturn in the economy - apparently almost nobody's hiring now other than the investment banks. Some of the guys I've talked to aren't sure they'll be able to find any work after graduating, at least until the economy's rebuilt itself. That $128,00 average starting salary was for a class that graduated into a boom economy - it'll be interesting to find out what the average is for the next two years. Not being employed after racking up $100,000 in debt over the two years of the MBA (a common occurrence according to the guys I know) can be extremely stressful - some of the guys doing their MBA think that in the long run doing their MBA lost them money! As for the investment banks - they often want their employees to work hours that make residency seem like a piece of cake! One friend of mine who works for an investment bank in the US worked all but 4 days this summer, 10 hours a day for the firm he will work for upon graduation. He got his birthday off, only to be called in half-way through the day because they needed him. Furthermore, having my father was an MBA grad executive and found it to be one of the least secure fields you can work in. Sure you're a hot commodity when you graduate, but within 5-15 years if you haven't risen to the very top you're often perceived as "old" and a purveyor of "stale" ideas. Being in management, you don't have the security someone with a unionized job would have - my father spent his last 15 years with the company paranoid about being let go! And he was fortunate enough to have worked for one firm where he earned a pension. None of the MBA guys I've spoken with ever expect to spend more than 5 years with one firm. So that $128,000 salary is somewhat deceptive - it has to cover all benefits, retirement planning (which admittedly would be true for a physician as well,) and also contingency funding in case of unemployment. . . There's simply no free ride anywhere - be it medicine, dentistry, law or MBA. For all of them you have to work hard to make it, unless you get lucky or have contacts. What is great about medicine is the SECURITY you have. Whereas with an MBA you are entirely dependent on the hiring power of corporations (unless you start your own business - and you don't need an MBA to do that!) and the strength of the economy, there's almost always a need for physicians and people still get sick even when the economy's slumping (sorry if that sounds morbid, but it is true. . .) But I think it's important to get the message out there that medicine is NOT the idealized free ride pop culture, some premeds and even some meds themselves make it out to be. From my experience, medical schools is ALOT of work - and I'm only in first year. The residents, clerks and 2nd years seem unanimous in telling me this year is as easy as it gets. . . and it ain't that easy! And while it's true SOME physicians bill large amounts to the government, most don't and those figures don't figure in overhead, student DEBT repayment, amount of time in school, hours worked (to a certain extent) or the fact we have to pay for most of our benefits on our own. And if the idea of people constantly coming to you with the "most inane" of complaints doesn't appeal to you, then you're definitely in the wrong field! Bottom line - if you're thinking of meds fully look into what you're getting into but don't let people disillusioned with the field or who know little about it mislead you. On another note, "recentUWOMD and MBA grad" - you're claim that a cardiologist would only make $60,000 if the system was privatized is highly dubious and makes leads me to almost want to question your claim of being a medical graduate. . . Yes, people often underestimate physician salaries, but comeon? Perhaps the current system encourages people to go to physicians for trivial concerns, but fear is a great motivator. . . if a person thinks they have heart trouble and that it might be a matter of life and death, they're going to go see a doctor no matter what the cost. . . or at least make sure they have enough private health insurance to cover that cost. Just look at cardiologist salaries in the states. Furthermore, you're claim that "HBA graduates have average starting salaries of $65,000-$75,000 and these guys are only 22 years old with only their undergrad debt to worry about (again on the link)" leads me to believe your whole posting is based on a quick visit to the Ivey website rather than having actually completed an MBA there. There is nothing in your posting you could not find on that website. And if you really had attended Ivey, you'd know that a fair number of the HBA students are OLDER than 22 (yes, you can graduate with an HBA with only 4 years of undergrad, making you 22 if you only did 4 years of High school but this is not the case with the majority of the HBA students I've met - and I've met a few.) If you'd attended Ivey, you'd probably also know to point out that there tuition ($14,000/yr for the two years of the HBA) puts them at a level of debt SIGNIFICANTLY higher than most typical undergrads! You also claim to have completed an MBA along with an MD. . . yet graduated from the MD in '97. From what I know about Ivey that's just not possible! They require you to be employed for a MINIMUM of 3 years before enrolling the MBA program. Even if they counted residency as employment (and I'm not sure they would) that would put your earliest start date for at Ivey as Sept 2000. The MBA at Ivey takes two years - the earliest you could have graduated from Ivey is May 2002 - ie this upcoming May, which would make your whole story a fabrication. Come to think of it, few Western MBA grads and students even refer to Western's MBA program as the "Western MBA program" as you do - they almost all refer to it as an Ivey school of business MBA! I don't mean to offend a fellow Western meds (alumni in this case) but this wouldn't be the first time someone posted under a misinformation false identity on a meds admission forum to try to scare away meds applicants. These disparities in your information make this sound not like a post by an actual grad of UWO Meds and Ivey's MBA programs but rather a premed who's worried about not doing well on the interview and is hoping to get into medicine by scaring away the competition! (which by the way, is the most flawed plan I've ever heard of considering the number of people you'd have to frighten away to actually make a difference!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MDMBAUWO Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 Yes I am not an "imposter" I graduated with an HBA from Ivey , first two years in science, the MBA at Western (I refer to it as MBA at Western because I dont know how many people in the sciences know the Ivey reference) only requires one year for HBA grads (check it up). As for the work requriement, it is waived for people who are completing or have completed residency requirements ie the MBA/LLB requires no work experience and neither does completing Pharmacy, Phd's or MD. You can phone them and ask them about it. I totally agree that the salaries will be lower but I think it is important to realize what you are getting yourself into. I agree meds is a tough long road, however the rewards are no longer there in the end. Why do you think all med interviews one will have in Canada today will address what is wrong with Canada's health care system. They want to ensure that you realize what kind of broken car you are getting to. As for 23 year olds vs 22 year olds, most grads have recently turned 23 the year that they graduate ie I turned 23 in April and graduated in May, therefore I dont really count the 23rd year as most of that year is spent working. That was a really small detail (boy oh boy). Im really happy that you love medicine, but people who have taken alternate routes are not trying to discourage people, rather ensure that the proper path is followed. By the length of your post perhaps I have struck a nerve with you that pinches your doubts and fears about the state of the health care system. the 60K cardiology was in reference to the previous post who had actually been offered that salary for a position in toronto. You dont think the salaries are coming dowm, I think your going through the process with blinders on. As for HBA grads the tuiton of 14K for your two years at Ivey is recovered just by the fact that they commence working soon after garduation, even conservatively at 40k per year in 4 years they would have made 160k-tax80 = 80K, however each year their salary would increase and 40k is very low, many have gotten signing bonuses of 10k which takes care of a big chunk of the debt. Finally I refer to the website because I dont know where else the figures are summarized. Look I dont think that you should assume you know everything and have the master plan and knowledge because you are in first med school (trust me thousands have done it before you its no biggie). You can desperately try to shoot holes in my experience (22..23 whatever) but the fact is medicine is quickly becoming a trade like anything else. A trade in a factory that has gone broke and cant pay workers what they are worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MDMBAUWO Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 before you jump all over this error where I said residency requirements it I meant proffesional school requirements excluding MDresidency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest notanMBA Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 gee...i thought McKinsey would prefer employees who can spell! (your/you're, professional etc.) All that education for nothing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IhateMBAs Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 There were a few in my med class, god did I hate those pricks, its all about the money, yeah I know 90% of the people in med school were there because of the money, but today I think you have a new breed everyone in my class realizes they are not going to be well off but we are in it for different reasons now because our motivations have to change with the current times. Who cares what those cheesy MBA suits think, I think those pompous freaks are nothing more than materialistic monsters who have no place in our med class but what are you going to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 Be nice everyone. This is a good thread with lots of interesting viewpoints being exchanged. I'd sure hate to have to close it because the conversation started to break down... Ian UBC, Med 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chuckecheese Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 Thats a tad anal....spelling, its a freeform discussion, try to avoid nitpicking, im sure the guy can spell. As for what he says, there is a lot of truth, I'm not going to say much except just wait until you start practicing, it is a totally different world far from the ideal, furthermore 60-70K for new specialists in toronto is accurate once you incorporate the claw back. I always hear the going rate at 15-18K above residency salary which sounds about right. I'm a newly minted family doc, and you dont even want to know how much I make relative to the weekends and evening hours I have to work in 3 different walk in clinics. Believe what you want but like other formerly lucrative career paths, medicine is losing and will continue to loose its lustre(ie law used to be very lucarative, now average salaries 55-65K, just ask presuming ed or look at his posts, MBA used to a ticket to big bucks, now MBA's are a dime a dozen unless you graduate from a top school like Ivey and graduate in the top 5% of your class). If anyone is thinking of family meds I would strongly advise against it, at least with the specialties you will pay off your loans before you retire! Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 Yeah - you're right. If you've done the HBA program, you could do a one year MBA program. Not sure about the residency counting towards the work requirement - and I don't really care enough to call the admissions up. Sorry about all the other stuff - your post seemed a little suspicious. I'm finding it surprising how many medical graduates have the time and interest to find a forum which is intended as a resource for premeds and medical students - (Ian - you must have advertised this board more than I thought!) And some of the "medical graduates" who have posted here have had some pretty fishy stories. . . plus alot of them have written in a very similar style. The unfortunate (and fortunate) thing about a board like this is the fact everyone can post anonymously, so there's not really And don't worry - I know what I'm getting into, or at least have as good an inkling as a student can get in first year. Actually, I think you'd find I agree with you alot more than most of my classmates - I am not one of those medical students who thinks I'm going to graduate and hit the jackpot (and unfortunately, I do have a few classmates who think that might be the case.) But large parts of your story sounded like bs. Two quick last questions though - why did you do the MBA after having both and HBA and MD? All the MBA guys joke around about how HBA really is an MBA (pretty much the same courses.) I'm surprised you wouldn't have been hired right away with just the MD and HBA! And why did your friend take a "salaried" position at $60,000. I've never heard of a cardiologist taking a salary (I've heard of pathologists taking a salary, not cardiologists.) Was that "salary" for last year of residency, was that a faculty salary offered before he billed for patients, or did he just decide to forgo the ability to bill OHIP for patients in return for $60,000? Of course this could all be resolved quite easily, if you care enough to provide me with evidence you went to Western. . . who gives the first day Anatomy lecture for first year meds at Western, and what remarkable thing does he do? He's done it for the last gazillion years and there's a race named after him. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CBASSinNOLA Posted April 21, 2002 Report Share Posted April 21, 2002 I've NEVER heard of a doctor, especially a family doctor, making the money that the previous poster suggested he made in his first year. Those numbers are insane. Also, I am in the States, and while our average lawyer salaries are comprable, there seems to be quite a large number of partners who rake it in. Even a partner at a small firm can make quite a handsome living. Oh, and back to the *Doctor* poster I mentioned above: he said it's risk free....do you all not have medical malpractice in Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BC guy Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 FYI: I know a specialist who has 10 years experience in a non-competitive field salaried by a hospital in BC and is paid 290TH a year, which is not bad considering there is no overhead and the hours are regular Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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