The other site

[Guest cali]

I keep hearing people talking about "the other bulletin board". Where is it?

[Guest JD]

It's at forums.delphiforums.com/anandmed. It's run by Vijay Anand, a student in meds at U of Manitoba.

[Guest JD]

Make sure you DON'T put a period after the "anandmed" part of the URL...

[Guest elu99]

Why can't I link to that site?

 

Just out of curiousity to see "the competition".

Although I could think of few possibilities that could make a site more helpful than this one already is.

[Guest anon guy]

certainly it'd be more helpful if we know who's a

real MD/student and who's just making up stories. I

can't think of any good way, other than to be

"certified" through sending mail to an admin with a

school account, or photocopied id card or something.

Just so we can take it with a grain of salt when we

see a post like "I'm a doctor and I only care about $;

I made millions in my first year!" Well at least we

can trust the moderators

 

The other site is organized like this one though

I prefer the layout and "feel" here.

[Guest elu99]

You can look at the fake posters as being a test for the knowledgeable surfers on this site.. there definitely are wild alarm bells raised when postings are questionable.

 

It's true, any fake post can be harmful to those who are just beginning to learn about the medical lifestyle, but you need to admit that critical thinking and in-depth research (not believing what any random Harry tells you to be true) are critical skills that need to be developed in the future physician. So in that respect, this board, in all its fallacies, helps potential future doctors to develop more than just their understanding of the admissions system.

[Guest JD]

The site is forums.delphiforums.com/anandmed

 

The reason it didn't work before was because I had a period at the end of the sentence, which happened to be right after the URL. Woops.

[Guest jennifer]

I think alot of what you read does have truth to it. The person who posted that million dollar a year was probably trying to lift spirits as the sad truth is physicians salaries are falling like the bombs over Afganistan and the student debt is rising like the American flags on Sept 11. The latest health care crisis solution that I heard is getting rave reviews by both the public and the government in Ontario. It involves a socialist approach where instead of billings, doctors will be paid a "fair" fixed wage and their overhead will be paid for by the government. I think the "fair" figure was 70K for family physicians and 85K for specialists. This isn't that great considering the debt load of med school can be 150K +undergrad 30K=180K, monthly thats like $2000 and after tax 85K is like 4000 leaving the specialist with 2000 disposable income or 24,000 per year afer tax and loan payments!

 

However the public is eating it up saying it's the best thing they have ever heard, saving tax payers something to the tune of a billion per year in Ontario. Not too encouraging, but oh well I think its still a great profession and I wouldnt want to do anything else

 

 

sorry I went off on a tangent good luck to everybody

[Guest 2cents]

Don't get me wrong...i'm not in meds for the money, BUT--there's no way i'm going to work for 85 k/year (60+ hours) per week after 14 years of post-secondary education. I think that training so hard/long and becoming a highly skilled professional merits a higher hourly wage than <25$ (which is probably comparable to many relatively unskilled labour jobs eg. factory, lots of union jobs etc.).

[Guest anon guy]

I wonder if a low cap will decrease the overall quality of

new doctors? I mean, some of the brighter (but greedier) minds may be put off and decide to study something else, right? This would probably happen even if tuition were decreased (I am sure a high tuition low pay job would be unacceptable for anyone)

 

Do you think this reduction of quality would lead to more errors, accidental deaths, etc? With the scientific improvements in diagnostic technology and drugs maybe family physicians don't necessarily have to be the absolute smartest people in the country?

[Guest Liana]

I would think that with increased technology, you would need smarter doctors to be able to understand it all.

 

Obviously, technicians will be specialized to run the equipment, but with increasing diversity of treatment options, physicians need to be able to choose the best/most effective/least harmful/most cost effective/most painless procedure. We're not in the days of drilling holes and prescribing sugar for everything. The Canadian government seems concerned about brain drain but less and less willing to do anything about it. Certainly, the HMO situation in the US isn't necessarily any better, but there are a vast number of private healthcare options stateside (especially in the midwest) that will shell out big bucks for quality physicians.

 

Like most aspiring future physicians, I can tell myself that money does not matter. As long as I can provide a good shelter and adequate lifestyle for myself and family, I am not too greedy. But by the same token, if there is no monetary incentive, why would anyone wish to devote 70-100 hours for minimal in return? Many physicians of previous generations justify their time away from family by the amount of money they can rake in, throwing cash at their children to buy happiness. Obviously, they will not succeed by this route, but at least the wife (husband) and kids have something to show for their missing relative, no matter how material it may be. But what about the new physician with the stay-at-home spouse and 2 small children. Will the spouse have to take on unwanted employment and force the children to be raised by daycare providers just to make ends meet through residency?

 

I think reduction of pay will lead to more errors. A physician who is underpaid will work longer hours, or take on more patients, or even moonlight in another clinic. This overworking is certainly not going to improve the service she can provide. He may even subconsciously resent those technicians around him who seem to make a higher hourly wage for what appears to be simple work; this may lead to working tension.

[Guest brandonite]

I've heard about that 'fair fixed wage' thing, and I don't think it will fly.

 

I don't think that 85K is really enough of a salary for a doctor. I know I'll get myself in trouble for saying this, but compared to law or business, doctors go to school for longer, work harder, have this indentured servitude known as residency, and are placed in positions of far more stress and greater responsibility. I think they should be paid accordingly.

 

I don't think the government can get away with a fixed salary of 70K for a simple reason - there will always be competition for doctors. There are plenty of areas in the US that are willing to offer amazing amounts of money to recruit a doctor (underserved areas), and rural areas in Canada are also in need. There will always be competition amongst the provinces for physicians, and that will mean that no one province can drastically reduce the salary of a doctor. I mean, look at nursing - their salaries have been growing dramatically in recent years.

 

I know a pile of doctors, and most of them take home at least $150K - $200K before taxes. I know salaries are going down, but I just don't see them going down that much any more. If anything, I think the movement towards private health care will increase the salary of a doctor. I'm not in medicine for the money. It's just that if I'm going to spend the next 10 years of my life working my a$$ off, I want to be able to live as well as the lawyers and accountants that I'll graduate with!

 

<<bracing for the impact>>

[Guest Ian Wong]

Heya,

 

Welcome brandonite! I see you finally caved in and registered. I think it's a safe bet that most people in my class would NOT work for $85,000 annually (especially before either overhead or taxes). We'd figure out some employment in healthcare with a greater return of income than that.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest brandonite]

I was a 'local user' before. I figured I'd go all the way.

 

I know that there are far more financially rewarding professions than medicine. And, going through the process of applying to US schools, I know that doctors there have had their salaries drop dramatically over the past couple decades due to HMO's. I'd just hate to see the same thing happen here.

 

I suppose I just get upset with people who are angry over the salaries of doctors, without considering the fact that it requires at least 8 years of university, and another 2-5 of little to no pay, on top of the huge debtload, and the work required...

[Guest Jennifer]

Well I'll play the role of government and then ask, at what wage would you doctors to be,be satisfied with. Its really interesting how many people would not do ths job if the money was not there, Actually the average accountants salary is 65,000 /year and according to the Law review of Ontario average attorney salaries are 78,000 per year. These are the stats that the public and govt are basing their stats on in terms of where MD compensation should fall given the shortage in health care money. Another argument that was posed was the fact that Prof's have an equally long training with Phd fellowship etc and work for much less and dont seem to complain about it. So here it is folks, what do you think a fair salary (if we were to go on a salary system) is for a physician ( family and specialist)?????

 

Take care all

Jennifer

[Guest bad hombre]

I doubt any accountants and most lawyers work as many hours as most MDs do. Some profs do work a lot too. There are exceptions to the above ofcourse, but in general i'm sure the mean amount of hours an MD works is much higher. I believe your ideas are somewhat justified, but maybe the salaries should be scrapped in favour of an hourly wage? I dunno

[Guest AniyaSG]

Difference i see detween profs (PhDs) and MDs is that profs in universities have extremely flexible schedules, and a heck of a lot of freedom. They accept lower salaries in exchange for that. A physician on call does not. And if anybody believes physicians on salary will work 'overtime' for free I would think they are mistaken. A system based on salaries would most certainly require more doctors as the ones present would not accept to put in extra hours without compensation. There has been talk on this messageboard about the 'ultra-driven' physicians who bill a lot, and who also see a lot of patients. Would these 'super-MDs' really bust their hump if they already knew they would make the same amount of money with minimal work? I think not. In the long run, I can't see costs for the province decreasing.

 

An interesting discussion...

[Guest Liana]

If the government is so concerned with paying high wages, then why do Members of Parliament make $150-200K? Look at Jean Chretien. He makes over $200K, but on top of that, he gets a "free" house, probably a free chauffer, and likely little/no taxes.

 

Sure, he's the Prime Minister. But has he personally done anything to save lives? I recall him doing a lot of choking of burglars, protestors, and welfare recipients, but not a whole lot of resuscitation.

 

Compare this to a seasoned medical doctor, who maybe earns $150K a year, minus overhead and massive taxes.

 

What would you rather have? No government or no healers?

[Guest anon guy]

There are very few MPs or MPPs though... well not only are their wages high but excellent benefits too (only one term will give them large pension?) along with short parliament sessions. Do local politicians and trustees earn a lot? (I don't know)

 

On the other hand I don't really like Liana's "government or healer" choice. Most people don't need to go to the doctor, but without a government everyone suffers from the chaos of anarchy. How would tax work? Who maintains everything and who do you complain to when stuff goes wrong?

 

In terms of wages, I think doctors ought to earn more than technicians. If a dental hygienist could earn $30/hr just by going to college, obviously MDs with their sacrifices in time and freedom need to get more.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

I think I would be willing to work at par (ie at a similar pay rate to the average Canadian University Graduate,) as long as it's on a per hour business. Then again, I'm only in first year so I'm still idealistic. However, in order for me to such a lower salary, I think I would require the following conditions to be met:

 

1) Payment of all my student loans. I'm looking to accumulate $100,000 in student loans (and that's not living 'high on the hog,' either!). If I'm going to make what the typical Canadian worker makes, I want to start out with the same student loan to pay off.

2) A pension. If I'm making the same as a unionized worker then I deserve the same pension plan. It's almost impossible to save entirely for your retirement on a typical salary, most people underestimate the value of their pension plans, and I'm pretty sure my patients won't want me performing neurosurgery on them when I'm 85.

3) A benefit package comparable to most careers. After all, it would be ridiculous to be a doctor and NOT have supplementary health coverage.'

4) Some way for making up all the lost wages I could of earned while in medical school. A good friend of mine started working right after University. I don't know exactly what she's making but it's in the order of $35,000-$40,000/year. She is 23 and just recently bought a house. I on the other hand, won't be making ANY money (let alone the $100,000 I'm shelling out!!) until I graduate at 27. That's at least $140,000-$160,000 of salary I'm missing out on relative to her, and that's not including promotions. As for the house, she'll be well on the way to having paid at least part of her mortgage off in 8 years. I, on the other hand, won't even be able to THINK of buying a house until I finish residency (29 to 33 depending on if I choose family or to specialize). Residents don't make much, and with the size of the loan they're carrying, they basically have enough to pay taxes, that loan, and continue living in the poverty they have had since High school.

5) Full family support while in school (maternity leave, daycare, etc. . .). Admittedly, being a guy this isn't the biggest issue for me, but it's a HUGE issue for 59 of my classmates. Basically, by deciding on doing medicine (at least with the current system) I've put off having a family until after residency. 29-33 might seem like not that old to be starting a family, but throw in a few failed relationships, etc. and I'm not having kids until I'm 40. The majority of Canadians working that typical wage are starting their families before the age of 30. They'll actually be able to play catch with their kids without having a heart attack (okay, that's an exageration. . . but I don't want my kid beating off the dribble until he's like 16. Not having him until 40 is giving him an unfair advantage!)

 

In terms of comparing a profession, $50 000/a year is NOT always the same as $50 000/year. You can't just compare annual salaries to decide who's better off, there are WAY more factors than straight up annual salary to compare.

 

I still say this is a great profession I don't need the excess salary to entice me to do it. But I don't think I should be put at a significant financial disadvantage to do medicine, either.

[Guest brandonite]

Well said, UWOMED2005.

 

In Manitoba, the billings of each doctor are made public, and always make the front page of the newspaper. Some opthomologist always bills in excess of $750,000 and people get incredibly upset. But, the average doctor bills far less, has to pay overhead that can be has high as 40%, has to make up a decade or more of lost earnings, save up a pension, and pay off med school debts that are in excess of $100,000 usually. Not to mention the incredibly long hours, the stress, and the amazing amount of responsibility.

 

It's just a pet peeve of mine - the complaint that doctors make far too much money... They don't, when you really consider things.

[Guest gucio93]

Well said UWO2005! And why are we comparing accountants to physicians? I'm not saying they should not be compensated for what they're doing, but when have they ever gone home after dealing with a baby dying because they got into a cabinet with pills, telling a 29 year old mother of a 6 month old that she will be dead in a year because of an inoperable tumor, or stiching up the same self-mutilator for the third time this week? All in all I don't think you can compare the stress of doing this to the stress of balancing someone's taxes? Why shouldn't the compensation reflect this? (Just playing the devil's advocate here - take it with a grain of salt, I had a long day).

[Guest strider2004]

Can somebody explain more about this fair fixed wage proposal? I haven't heard of it

[Guest Shelby]

I'm sorry but the public's view of phycian's self importance and self centeredness is unfortunatley enforced and supported by views such as your own. " compensation should reflect the stress level that doctors endure.......what they deal with telling people their child is dying etc etc". I am afraid that much of a doctors time is rather uneventful if not down right sendendary, burried in reams of paperwork. But more importantly, what makes MD's so special that the must be compensated with enough to buy BMW's and live in mansions in Rosedale. What about the stress that firefighters face, the stress they endure from seeing people burning alive. The stress that their families endure each time they go to work. Guess what Gucio, they are paid 50,000 per year. What about police officers who are faced with horribly stressful situations day in and day out. They see heartbreak too, burying their partners or watching people die (in Toronto weekly). What about their families and what they go through. You know what the starting salary is for a constable? 28,000. So when you whine about your 40,000 during residency maybe you will put aside your feelings of sorrow towards yourself and realize their are people who are just as if not more important the Doctors and do their jobs for a heck of alot less. Please dont embarrass those of us in the profession with your thoughtless attitudes, it just fuels the public's fire.

 

Doctobe Shelby

[Guest anon guy]

well, do you have stats suggesting the average policeman/fireman suffers from more stress than doctors? What about the cops who sit around donut shops or speed traps? Much of firefighters' time is spent hacking open elevator doors and responding to prank fire alarms. I concede that they do have times when they show their bravery and courage but the same could be said about doctors. A surgeon could theoretically face life-and-death situations several times a day.

 

Frankly, many doctors work long irregular hours with little vacation time and they are probably some of the brightest people in the country. They attend much more schooling and pay more tuition than everyone else. The public may be angry about MD wages but the solution is to educate them (and not lowering income! )