Choosing Undergrad Universities - Advice please?

[Guest Blaze]

Hey all. I just recently discovered this forum, and was hoping you guys could give me a hand in choosing my Undergrad University. I'm worried that choosing the wrong one might jeapordize my chances for med school later on because of how difficult the University is.

 

Here are my choices:

University of Toronto Trinity St George Campus: Life Sciences

University of Toronto Erindale Campus: Life Sciences

Western: Science

McMaster: Science

Queens: Life Sciences

 

I've heard of rumours saying that UofT and Queens make it tough to get a good GPA. Is that true? Which one of my choices would give me the best GPA? AHHHH so confused! Any help/advice you guys could offer me would be deeply appreciated.

 

Blaze

[Guest MO]

It doesn't matter where you go for your undergrad, and no school will make\break your chances of getting into medical school.

 

However, the conpetition factor you're talking about is surely present at places (especially Trinity College where you need like 90%+ to get in). I was gonna attend Trinity College last year, but I opted out at the last minute because UBC was closer to home, and I got a scholarship.

 

Out of all the schools you listed, UT seems to be the one with the most competiton, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the toughest school--you have to learn the same materials at the other schools as well.

 

All in all, choose a place where you'll have fun for the next 4 years. If I could go back and choose again, i'd go to UWO because it has the rep of being a par-tay school. haha....

 

also, there are lots of past posts about undergrad institiutions on this site, so go and look through the archives.

[Guest Beaver]

I think most will agree in saying you will write the script to your own fate with your own intellectual capabilities and work ethic.

 

Given those schools I think you will find the level of difficulty comparable among all of them. Organic chem is organic chem any way you slice it and anywhere you take it. I have instructed both at UofT and Mac and can say with confidence that those two schools had similar midterm/final exams and consequently similar mark distributions. Having said that UofT and Queens are intensely competitive and I would advice you think about the type of environment that you feel most comfortable in. An additional note is the fact that alot and I mean ALOT of students have complained about the English problem alot of Teaching Assistants have at UofT. Apparently they cant understand what the hell they are saying which can also be detrimental to one's mark. I did a life sciences undergrad at UofT and while I loved the facilities and challenging coursework, I hated the survival of the fittest attitude that alot of the students had. From what I observe things haven't changed that much since I graduated, but again you may thrive in a competitive environment.

 

the beav

[Guest missing Manitoba]

Hi Blaze,

 

As a soon-to-be Queen's chemistry grad, I didn't find it overly difficult to get a decent GPA at Queen's. And, in reality, some of my highest science marks came in *life science* electives. Peruse the Dean's honour list and note the number of LISC (life science) students on it: www.queensu.ca/artsci/stu...nvoc4.html

 

In my opinion, academically speaking, you're likely to do just as well in a Queen's science program as you would at any other university.

 

My #1 suggestion in choosing a school is pick the one you *like* best. If you visited the schools, which one had an environment that most suited you? You're most likely to thrive in an environment you're comfortable and happy in. Also, look at the course descriptions for the programs you're interested in, particularly those for required courses -- you'll probably do best in classes that are appealing to you.

[Guest queenzer]

missing manitoba,

 

my name is on that list too, albeit near the bottom. The people in the upper echelons of the dean's list are crazily keen yet articulate and sociable people who could get into meds no matter where they went. Maybe you should also mention the massive numbers of life science students who got cut down at the end of every year because they couldn't get past the minimum average.

 

The life sci program is packed with smart people who work hard (including many competitive types) aiming for meds or important research posts so it's natural that they would do well in the artsci department as a whole.

[Guest missing Manitoba]

Hi queenzer,

 

The people on the honours *with distinction* list are the ones who do insanely well. As for the plain "honours" list, of which I too am a part, as you yourself agreed, there are *a lot* of life sci students on it, so there is no reason to assume that a student entering life science at Queen's won't do well.

 

Queen's as a whole has a lot of smart students; this tends to happen when a university has an "A" cutoff for undergrad. But, I am not convinced that the people who do more poorly in life science -- ie, the ones cut out of the program -- would automatically do that much better at another university. The reality is that most programs, regardless of the school, will have some really strong students and some weak(er) ones.

 

I'm certainly in agreement, though, that some life sci (and other Queen's pre-med) students are competitive, and I should have mentioned that in my previous post.

[Guest Blaze]

Well, looking back at previous posts in this and other threads, there seems to be a general consensus that Queens and UofT have competitive environments. What exactly are characteristics of competitive environments?

 

Also, most people have said that marks tend to be slightly lower in competitive environments...is that a general trend in UofT and Queens?

[Guest queenzer]

Hi missing Manitoba

 

Maybe it's just my opinion then. The first 2 years of lifesci core courses really weren't terrible, I only have myself to blame for getting mediocre marks. But I was in total disbelief at how poorly I fared in BCHM310 and 411. For MBIO318 apparently a copy of an old exam was floating around which greatly helped some, but I didn't have access to it and was unluckily shafted

The only reason I managed to get onto the list was because I picked the right electives, which I knew I would excel in. In any case, if I loved LISC courses I should still have opted for a BIOL major and chose whichever health science courses I want and have the freedom to take electives. If I remember correctly, LISC ssp only had 2 or 3 credits for "open electives".

 

The thing I didn't like was how the school fueled the competitiveness by introducing cutoffs at the end of every year (I think it was mid 60s after 3rd yr). I was never close but it did put the stress level up. I agree that those who got cut out might not have done well had they gone elsewhere, I just think that I might have done marginally better (i.e. nothing under 70) if I went to another school. Those are real GPA killers. Unfortunately I have never taken undergrad courses at another place so it's not a fact-based statement.

 

Oh, and the honour roll was revised starting that year, so that anyone with 80+ avg got listed. Before it used to be just the top 3% of all students.

 

hmm as an endnote about honours with distinction, wow there's some "Manitoba presence" isn't there... I was his phys 107 lab partner and I had no idea he was such a genius, otherwise I would have tried to get him to do more of the work.

[Guest missing Manitoba]

Hi Blaze,

 

Someone within the life sci program at Queen's might have a very different perspective on the competitiveness among its students. The outsider perspective -- i.e., that of many of the non-life sci students -- is that a *minority* of life science students:

- tear journal articles out to prevent their use by other students

- sabotage labs / lab exams

- call in bomb threats / pull fire alarms during exams (this is not limited to premed here, though)

- avoid providing assistance to other students

- exhibit other "gunner"-type behaviour

 

I should mention that, in the case of the above, the life sci students are pretty unfairly labeled. Aside from the fact that some of the *other* premeds (ie, those in biochem, biology, etc) could just as easily be responsible, many of the life science students I know are helpful, caring people who are just as annoyed by this behaviour as the rest of the university community.

 

In a more general sense, some of the more competitive students seem to study *a lot*. I know of a number life sci students who study every day in order to do well, and "gunner" behaviour seems to be pretty common. This is probably true of many premeds, though, regardless of program or school.

 

As for marks being lower, in the case of Queen's, I tend to disagree. Beyond first year, many class averages in science courses here come out in the "B" range (70-79) -- similar to most schools. First year averages are often lower (65-69), maybe because some students have trouble adapting to the university environment. But, students still get "A" range grades in these courses. I will say, though, that it can be tougher, depending on the course, to get 90+ marks here.

[Guest missing Manitoba]

Hi queenzer,

 

Was there an old exam floating around for MBIO? It wasn't my best course, either. :\

 

Is someone from MB on the *with distinction* list? That's cool. I was killed in first year by PHYS 106 -- I was pathetically jealous of the students who were allowed to take 107. I could never have majored in bio. Botany and ecology just don't do anything for me. Not, of course, that quantum theory brought me a whole lot of joy. :rolleyes

 

I've heard that some of the BCHM courses are pretty miserable. I took biochem at another university as a visiting student, so I never had the opportunity to experience them.

 

I agree that the cuts in life sci were a really bad idea. While Queen's does like its reputation for allowing students to pick a major after 1st year, I think the administration definitely needs to limit life science. It's pretty unfair for a student who was in life science to begin with to be kicked out of his program in favour of someone who decides to opt in after 1st year. It's also unfair to accept so many students for a program knowing that there isn't enough space for all of them.

 

Like you, I feel that my lowest marks might not have been quite *as* low at another school. However, I suspect that most universities have their "weeder" courses. So, while I might have done better in, say, PHYSICS at another university, someone else who does badly in chemistry (for example) at another university might have a lower mark than he would have had at Queen's. Having only taken a couple of courses at another uni, though, I can't be sure.

[Guest queenzer]

Yeah, I took that class too. Not as tough as bchm 431. dr mak was nice while hill was uncomprehensible. boffa's questions on the final exam were overly extensive with respect to the level he taught in class. what do you think? it's all over now... which is good

[Guest queenzer 2]

regarding MBIO,

 

there was a copy of this floating around. in fact, they used the same one from years previous. as well, the m/c questions for bchm 310 (315/316) were floating around too in the form of old exams. all you had to do was study old exams from 1980 and you would have gotten 100% on them. as a result, i did fairly well on both courses. i know it sucks, but i find that doing well doesn't necessarily mean you know your stuff. in fact, i found that a lot of the top top top students (we all know who they are) had access to these old exams and stuff. i know - i got it off of them!

 

to students who are just reading this stuff, you have to remember. the key to doing well in university is making friends with everyone and trying to bum off old tests. that'll help you a lot

[Guest queenzer]

the above queenzer isn't the same as myself... I believe Hill and Mak taught 410 (Proteins) while Petkovich and a host of others taught 411 (Nucleic Acid). Basically it was tough because we were responsible for memorizing a large amount of stuff but respond in small spaces so we had to be exact and concise.

[Guest Beaver]

Missing Manitba: that line is classic, I love it.....

 

"and they exhibit other "gunner" type behaviour"

 

 

Too Funny

 

Good luck to you

[Guest queenzer]

Don't wanna name names here, but 01 grad Andy Bond was one heck of a whiz, and I am pretty sure he was from MB. He had been in the shadow of an even smarter guy though, but that person left after 3 years for MD.

 

Not sure if this is a "gunner" behaviour, but I really hate people who ask the prof questions which don't really seem to help the class... I feel it's like they want to show off, or to satisfy their own quirky interests. Just let the guy teach, darnit! Sorry had to let off some steam.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

An "even smarter guy" from Queen's Life Sci's class of 2001 who "left after 3 years for MD". . . that guy wouldn't have happened to have big "Palm"s, would he have?

 

If so. . he's still shining in that MD program he opted out of LifeSci for. . .

[Guest queenzer]

heh, I think you got the idea UWOMED2005

I wouldn't say I know him well, but I think he's got an amazing work ethic considering how smart he already is.

On the topic of the 04 class, I think I recognize some people who graduated with me from the ol' high school (famous for carps). Coming here is sorta like a big reunion.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Heheh. . I thought I knew exactly who you were talking about. I didn't go to Queen's with him, but his reputation preceeds him

 

BTW - Carps? As in "Carpe Diem"? There wouldn't by any chance be specifically 3 people from that high school in the class of 2004, and would that lovely "Collegiate Institute" be in Ottawa? If so. . . then I think you'd recognize a couple people in the 2005 class, myself included. . .

 

Sorry if this is a case of mistaken identity.

[Guest queenzer]

well I thought my school got the trademark on "carpe diem" but maybe not My high school has a blue carp as its mascot which is a matching colour for the hockey team in that town.

[Guest Beaver]

Mr. Rader

 

Do you think this is an appropriate discussion for a premed forum??????

 

he he Gotcha

 

just kidding

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Beaver - Good one. . . probably not. There seems to be a number of irrelevant conversations going on now, likely a result of the fact decisions have pretty much been made already for the 2006 class so people posting here aren't looking for interview advice (and also this is probably a bit more appropriate. . . I was a little vexed by what H might think about that other conversation). If people are looking to procrastinate by posting here, might I suggest asking us moderators questions about our schools in their respective forums? Might come in handy should anyone have the fortune of getting into >1 school!

 

Queenzer - wasn't sure which school you were making a reference too, but it is kind of funny the "carps" could have been a reference to my school as well. Not being from T.O I don't know my T.O. High School mascots!

[Guest Beaver]

Good Point Mr. Rader

 

BTW does western employ a PBL approach to any degree. Obviously it isn't the focus not the platform for the program but I was wondering if it does try to encourage independent "case" based learning to any degree. I'm still on the fence regarding which approach is more suited for myself and perhaps others who have spent some time in largely independent driven research based programs.

 

BTW regarding H, I did not mean any disrespect to him or anything like that, I have known his girlfriend for a very long time and she is really good friends with me. We always joke around about boyfriends/girlfriends etc. and she was trying to sell H a truly truly cool guy.....ask anyone she said. So I thought I would ask someone who would have an unbiased opinion. In any case we were just clowning around, but in respect for everyone your point is well taken

[Guest UWOMED2005]

I'll answer that in the 'Western' Forum for you Beaver!

 

As for H. . . no worries. I won't say anything, it just seemed odd to discuss someone like that in a public forum, and I wasn't sure what direction you were heading in. On a completely ironic note, H is sitting behind me in the LRC here right now!