Preference of school!!

[Guest bossman1818]

I am just a high school student who has recently graduated, and I will be starting pre-med next year! I have a question, though, that has been bothering me lately. You see, I am a high academic student (90's), and yet I opted to go to a community college for the first two years of my degree, and then transfer into a university to finish off. The specifics: I will be attending Grant MacEwan Community College in Edmonton Alberta for the first two years, and then the U of A for the last two. My reasoning is that I will finish all the required pre-med courses in the first year in a smaller school, thus, a better chance at getting a better mark. Also, I will be writing the MCAT after these first two years. Then I will transfer into the U of A, finish the degree, and then hold my breath and wait. My question is this, I have heard recently that there is bias within the Medical School community, particularly with the U of A, with regards to the institution were you have studied. Knowing how competitive it is to get into medical school, I would hate to not be accepted based on were I took the first two years of my degree. So, is it true that this bias exists? Please, I already know what the medical schools themselves will say, but I am looking for those that have applied to medical schools, perhaps in particular U of A, and have noticed or have heard of this bias. Any information that anyone could give would be most appreciated. By the way, congrats to all those accepted this year, I hope to join you soon!!!

[Guest Akane200]

I can't really answer your questions, but why would you rather go to community college instead of attending university for all three to four years? Is it a special program? (You seem to be a strong academic student) Or is it only to maximize your chances into med school? Because I really don't believe that community college courses are equivalent to university level pre-med courses (different focus, different application of theory, etc.). In addition, there's a lot more to undergrad (the friends, the experience, the life) than just a way of gaining entry to med school.

[Guest EB]

bossman,

 

that myth about the u of a is wrong. personally, i know two people who did their first 2 years at a community college and got in - one after 3 years and the other after completing his degree.

 

 

Erin

[Guest Akane200]

Just what is this "going to community college in the first two years" thing really about? Is it some kind of special degree program with a name or just a loop hole to jump the queue into med school without having to go through the weeding out process of pre-meds???

[Guest MEDCOMPSCI]

Can I ask you a simple question....why are you making this all so hard on yourself? Just goto UofA and do your 3-4 years there before going into Meds.

 

If you are afarid that you cannot 'cut it' with the other pre-meds, is it not better to find out during pre-med rather than on the operating table? If you work hard, are smart and nice enough to warrant being a doctor, you will be one!

 

Unfortuntely, not everyone can be a doctor. To say that grades mean everything is wrong, but how confident would you be if you found out your doc. had a 13 MCAT and a 2.1 GPA?

 

My advice would be to not try to 'beat the system', but instead play the game like the rest of us and get in on our own merits.

[Guest Ian Wong]

I've posted something to this extent a while back; I believe it's on my actual web-site, and not this message board.

 

I don't have any first-hand info for you, although it looks like Erin does (making her more knowledgeable in this U of A stuff than myself), but the major thing that medical schools look for is excellence. This is universal across the Canadian medical schools. They are trying to select applicants with the academic skills to handle the med school workload, the diversity of backgrounds and experiences to work well with a wide variety of fellow health-care workers and patients, and the personalities and social disposition to be good class-mates who can work together in a team approach.

 

The second point is that you need to prove that you have the above qualifications; it's not enough to just say that you do. This is where GPA, MCAT scores, volunteer experiences, research, etc are required by the medical school.

 

As long as you are a top performer at your community college, I think you'll have as good a chance as anyone else to get into med school. However, a middle-of-the-road student, at either a community college, or U of A itself, will have a harder time standing out enough to be noticed by the admissions committee.

 

There's a lot of good sides to a community college, including smaller teacher-student ratios (making it easier to get hands-on help), more interaction with fellow classmates, potentially more flexible schedules, less aggravation dealing with excessively large and bloated educational administration, etc. Counterbalancing that might be the higher tuition costs, less "name-recognition", and lack of variety in research dollars, etc.

 

The bottom line is that you need to be a very strong academic student, and you need to prove that in your GPA and MCAT scores. For you, the MCAT score might actually (and I'm totally hypothezising here) be even more important, because it is a standardized exam applicable to all U of A applicants, whereas the marking scheme at your community college might be significantly different from U of A itself.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest a]

The college has a university transfer program that allows student to take their first 2 years at Grant MacEwan and their last 2 at the university. The advantage for some students is that the college classes are smaller allowing for a more intimate learning experience while many people take this program simply because Grant MacEwan is less expensive than the U of A. They are offer this for general programs (BA, BSc.) but I don't know if it is available for other programs.

 

As far as I know, the classes at Grant MacEwan are completely transferable and equivalent to those at the U of A. The college would have had to work with the university to ensure the classes they were offering would be accepted by the U of A. I would say that as long as you do well, it doesn't make a difference where the first 2 years of your degree were spent. In the end, you'll have a University of Alberta degree-not a college diploma. In an age where tuition costs continue to rise, I expect more people will take advantage of this program.

[Guest bossman1818]

Please people, I didn't mean to make myself look like a lazy bum who is trying to find the easy way into medical school. With all due respect, it took a lot of hard work to achieve the marks I did in high school, and I have fully realized the hard work it will take to do well in pre-med and medical school. Trust me, if I was that lazy, I wouldn't pursue such a difficult career as medicine? Now, to clear up some of the confusion, the reason I chose a community college is for the reasons mentioned earlier. There are smaller classes, therefore easier learning of THE SAME MATERIAL that I would take in university. (The courses at Grant Mac are completely transferable). I also believe that in this smaller learning environment, I would also achieve better marks, thus making myself more competitive for admissions. Finally, if I am able to learn the material better in a smaller college, I believe it will also better my marks on the MCAT as well. Honestly, this isn't the easy way out in my opinion, only the smarter way out. Do you honestly think that I will care for that one person who tells me, " Well, I went to university for pre-med at you went to college you cheater," when I am sitting in medical school? I am not trying to be snobby, because there are thousands of people dreaming of someday having an MD at the end of their name, and I am one of those insignificant people. The point I am trying to stress is that from what I have learned thru investigation and reading is that you must make yourself stand out to the admissions committee, and everything you can do to better your chances, well.... do it! So if going to college for the first two years will only better my chances, why not? The thing that worries me is that I don't want to be rejected on the basis that I went to college for two years, and the person that beat me out went to university for all four. (Even though we both end up with a U of A degree!). Hoped I cleared up some confusion without making myself look like an @#%$, and really, I congratulate all those that have made it in, and to those that are trying, keep the drive! You must understand, I am only an insignificant freshmen trying to get my foot in the door.

[Guest YongQ]

If community college is an environment where you think you could learn better, then by all means do it. If U of A accepts the courses as transfer credits then it's all good. Med schools look for excellence, as Ian said - and despite what you may hear in the US boards, admissions discrimination based on QUALITY of schools simply isn't done in Canada.

 

However, your other comments make my blood boil! A community college does NOT have the same resources as a university, especially a highly funded one (3rd in Canada!) like U of A. Thus, you'd be cheating yourself in my opinion if you went to the college . There's really no reason you should go to community college if you're a good student in high school. The fact that you say you are a high achiever, yet choose a non-research institution to do your first two years, pretty much proves you are looking for an easy way out of something all of us have to deal with. It sounds a lot like you're doing this as a means to an end, not just to learn the material better. And too many premeds these days take a "means to an end" approach to building their application. If you are truly up for the premedical experience, try a university, which is pretty much the hub of academia, and has resources that most colleges don't (excluding technical schools). With marks like yours, you are a smart guy and a hard worker - why are you afraid of getting low marks in university? It's really not as bad as I think you think it is.

[Guest bossman1818]

Thank-you for you comments, sorry to make your blood boil. But I have a few questions. If I believe that I will learn better in a community college, does that not falsify your assumption that I am just trying to 'do well' with the material then to actually learn it. The reason that I chose a community college was because I believe that I will learn the material better in the smaller environment. As well, from what people have told me (not what I know), you cannot participate in research until your third year (or its unwise, one of the two). In this area I really don't know, if you would like to clear up some confusion, then by all means. Really, I am just a high school student, so all the comments I make is not because I know, but because its what I have heard. So don't take any comments I make to heart, just trying to understand the process. (then again, I realize that medical school must have you really stressed out:) Anyways, thank-you for the added info!

[Guest Akane200]

You can participate in research as early as you want (like first year, or even the summer before). As long as you have the interest and the initiative to ask and look for the opportunities available, it should not delay you until third year. It is also why it would be far better to go to a university with the resources and research as opposed to a community college. There may even be special courses that are research opportunities themselves (at UT, they are offered in 2nd,4th years in life sciences).

[Guest YongQ]

Bossman, I stand by my opinion that universities are from an academic/research standpoint much better for your education than community college. This may sound idealistic on my part, but a person working hard in any school will do very well. Akane is right, anybody can do research as long as you have the motivation and the necessary background (which is usually after 1st or 2nd year, depending on what subject you're planning to research). NSERC even offers grants for such endeavours. On the other hand, some people are scared stiff of research and thus they don't pursue it until 3rd or 4th year, until they are more sure of their background. Again, hard work will get you anywhere you need to go, regardless of school or program.

 

And you think I sound stressed out - I haven't even STARTED med school yet!

[Guest Ian Wong]

Just wanted to thank everyone again for keeping this discussion so civil. Great work all.

 

I think I'm not as pro-university as some of the other moderators here, and I guess I say this as someone who's never gone to a community college, but has many friends who did. I also have to re-iterate that while I think research is something good to have on your application, I don't think it's the end all and be all of the application process. If the added flexibility of going to a community college allows you to build up other parts of your application, such as volunteering or doctor shadowing, then it might be a great trade-off.

 

Research is great and all if you are interested in that type of thing, but personally, as someone who did some research during one summer in molecular cancer work, I can truly say that while I might be a bit better at reading journals, that my background really hasn't come into play as being too useful during medical school, and I suspect won't be useful at all during clinical work. (there's a run-on sentence).

 

Therefore, if the smaller class sizes allow you to meet your profs better, and get you more individual help, that also aids you when looking for reference letters. Also, each prof that you get to know automatically becomes an instant resources base, as they all have contacts. Perhaps the Bio prof at your college doesn't do research, but has a buddy at U of A who does. Making contacts and networking can be, if you are a little aggressive, an excellent way to get your foot into the academia door, particularly if you perform well in that professor's class (which may be easier at the college level).

 

I personally don't see anything wrong with taking the easier way out, although clearly there is a limit to this. I think what YongQ might be ticked about is that your plan sounds a lot like the only reason you are doing this is to get into med school, and that you are ignoring the whole point of university/college; to get an education and mature through life experience. As far as finding the easiest or most efficient way to do things, that's one of the reasons why this web-site was put up; to show how I got in, so that people start to realise that the order in which you take your classes can minimize the studying you need to do for the MCAT, that there are research opportunities at each university if you look for them, that sending your application materials by regular post is a bad idea, etc.

 

I'm not shy about my UVic days, where I had a choice to enter the Biology department in Molecular stuff, or Biochem/Micro which does essentially the same thing, and I chose Bio because the course work was easier. Ultimately, I'm where I wanted to be (I never had any plans of going into research, or working as a lab tech in industry), and I think my overall enjoyment of university was higher because I was out doing other things while the Biochem students were doing day-long purifications of proteins, and other meaningless drivel . Doing things the hard way isn't always the best way, but taking the easy way out isn't good if you're constantly trying to make the end justify the means.

 

Anyway, enough preaching from me. You've made your decision already, and now it's up to you to take the best advantage of it.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest bossman1818]

I'm sorry if I appeared to be angered by all your statements, in fact, your input has been most useful to me. While I have made the decision to first go to college, I have also accepted the fact that I will not limit myself in future choices (i.e.- I can transfer to university after one or two years). All your information has been most useful, and now it is time from me to push onwards. Yes, it is true that my ultimate goal is medicine, and like Ian, I cannot imagine myself working in a lab four years from now. Yet I know, understand, and want to experience life to its fullist in my pre-med years (because who has a life in medical school . My future volunteering positions include many medical missions trips to areas like Africa and Mexico, were I will not only be able to learn more about medicine, but about myself and others as well. (I have done missions before). Life is so short, and I want to enjoy it. Medicine is very demanding, especially intellectually, but even I understand that a doctor is not just a person of skin and brains, but an individual that also has the emotional capacity and life experience behind him/her to truly care for people when they most need it. (sounds like an interview response). The point is, today I have learned many beneficial things from the comments you have all made, and tomorrow, I will learn something new. I appreciate all those that have helped me, and commend all those that have chosen medicine as a career. The best to all of you, and hopefully you will be here again when more questions come to my mind.

 

ps - If you would like to add something, just wondering how most of you guys/girls did in your high school years. (Is a 80 - 90 average competitive?)

[Guest Akane200]

I don't know why, but may be it's because I never worked in a lab before, but before med school, I took the same view as Ian & company regarding research. Working in a lab for hours was not that desirable a career or job.

 

To be honest, I have not done research ever, until now (like, as of last week); but I don't take the view as research being exclusive from clinical practice, or that it is very insignificant to our later future practice as physicians. I think that to take such a narrow view of research in general is limiting to oneself.

 

There are many types of research, and there are so many different things to research. Working in the lab for hours is NOT research. That's what the lab techs do. Researchers do that too, but they do A LOT MORE than just that. They use there brain, they analyze material, and publish very useful literature (and sometimes not so useful literature :b ) that is used in making guidelines, protocols, use of new surgical techniques, other parts affecting clinical practice that the behaviour of the professionals in many, if not all, aspects of the medical field. As physicians (even family docs), you will have to keep up with the guidelines, and the studies that come out that may affect how you handle certain types of care, and the use of certain drugs, etc.

 

Lots of things are or should be evidence based if possible. Where else can you get the evidence if you don't have the research?

 

While not mandatory, I feel that some exposure to research and understanding it's application to the medical/healthcare field is quite important in this respect at some point during our education. If not in undergrad, then in med school. I also agree that research should not be used as a means to and end (ie med school). Research in itself can be highly rewarding. But that also depends greatly on the people you work with. If you have a great supervisor, you'll enjoy it a lot more (and vice versa). But I guess everything else is like that too.

 

So what's my point? Don't bash the research and make it look like it's the stereotypical boring labwork. There's a lot more out there that I think is worth exploring. Right now, I'm doing clinical epidemiological research. It's not lab work, it's chart stuff; it could be gruelling, but I think that the results will prove very useful. And that's one of the reasons why it's worth it.