Guest tweep0 Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Hi everyone, Does anyone know how important marks are in med school? Do they make much of a difference in residency selection. From other med students, i have heard responses like "they dont make much of a difference, but the fact that they do, is reason to get good marks". Does that sound about right? Tweep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Yeah, that sounds about right. The thing I've come to realize about generalizations when it comes to CaRMS is that every program is pretty much free to set its own criteria for admissions, so to say "this is all important" or "this doesn't matter at all" isn't very accurate. For example, UWO's emerg program (very competitive to get into, btw) director spoke to our class last year and told us that acedmics counted for 10% of the pre-interview assessment. But you got 8/10% just for passing all your courses in med school, and the only way to get a 9/10% was to "have a PhD or something." In other words, getting honours over pass meant diddly squat. . . though you could lose a lot with a failure. On the flip side, the director of the general surgery program here has made comments that insinuate marks are very important to matching to that particular program. And apparently one of the Toronto program directors said something similar last year at a conference. So they can not be entirely discounted. . . But one interesting thing is the number of schools switching to a P/F system. I believe a couple of the schools out west are like that already, Dal either has or is in the process of doing so, Queen's is in the process of doing so, and I believe for UWO the class of 2008 will be entirely P/F. The schools already P/F still do pretty well in the match. So it's definitely not the be all and end all. Work hard, do your best, focus on learning, and if you get a few Hs or whatever your school gives for achievement that's great. If not, don't sweat it. You won't be forced to practice medicine on rodents in Timbuktu. And worse comes to worse, you can try convincing the program director during your interview that 'P' stands for "Perfect" and 'H' stands for "Horrible." But don't fail. That's bad. You won't die of hunger, but it's bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tweep0 Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 Thanks UWOMED2005 The difference between a 50% (if that is the passing mark) and a 80% is pretty huge. I takes a lot of effort to gain 30%. So, the amount of free time one has in meds largely depends on whether marks make a difference. I was hoping academics would be a little more relaxed in meds (not the content, but the competitiveness). Its too bad their isn't a set criteria about marks. Aw well. :b Tweep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aneliz Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 At UWO the passing mark is a 60%....but anything under a 65 will get you a 'fireside chat' with administration.... The problem is that med school volume is HUGE compared to what you are used to in undergrad... (you will cover the equivalent of an entire undergrad course in as little as 2 weeks...) but the exams aren't any longer than an undergrad exam.... Problem is that you really need to study everything (at least superficially) to try and hit what will actually be asked on the exam (for example: 2 hours of lecture, 52 pages of typed notes, 87 drugs = 15 exam questions) And, regardless of whether you believe marks matter or don't matter, the class average is usually around 75-80% on any given exam....so while the actual mark isn't that important, you don't want to be in the bottom 10% of your class either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 And two more things you want to consider: 1) you don't want to look dumb in clerkship as you probably want some nice reference letters for 4th year 2) Even more than that. . . you want to know what to do when you're finished your training so that you don't kill someone. But don't overly obsess where you sit relative to your classmates as well. It's better to finish in the bottom 20% yet know the basic stuff* really well and still remember everything you learned a year later, than to finish in the top 5% and forget everything 5 days after the exam. *I'm currently working with a doc who is often an examiner for part II of the LMCC (ie licencing exam) and he can't stress enough how important the basics are. He's actually specifically said the people he's seen do worst on the LMCC part II are the surgical subspecialty types who did really well in preclerkship. . . the kind who memorized all the really rare stuff to try and impress their fellow students, and then tries to impress the LMCC examiners by overthinking his answers and putting rare stuff at the top of their differential diagnoses (ie listing aortic dissection and Zollinger-Ellison at the top of their differential for chest pain or Astrocytoma for headache just to try to impress the committee they knew those could cause chest pain.) Know your COPD, Asthma, IHD, MIs, URTIs, GI bleeds first and foremost. . . knowing the ins and outs of Lesch-Nyhan or Prader-Willi just isn't as important. You'll forget the details and have to look that stuff up anyways IF you ever have a patient with those conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest justanotherpremed Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 uwomed2005: I have a questions for you... is this liscencing exam for just being liscenced to practice as a gp... or for all physicians in Canada? Because I would think that it would be very important for someone in a surgical subspecialty to know the very fine details of the structures, etc. of the area on which they intend to operate. Personally, i wouldn't want someone giving me a coronary bypass to have just focused on the general stuff... :hat :smokin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 The LMCC Part 1 and 2 exams are written by all Canadian med graduates, Part 1 being written just prior to med school graduation, and Part 2 being written usually after first year of residency. Therefore, both your family doctor and your cardiac surgeon, if they did both med school and residency in Canada, have written these two exams. There is also a board specific licensing exam, and your family doctor would have written the Family Medicine-specific exam, and your cardiac surgeon would have written the Cardiac Surgery-specific exam. Not surprisingly, the emphasis on the two exams will be different. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kirsteen Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Hi there, I believe, in order to practice and bill in Canada, you need to pass the Royal College exam and become a fellow. As far as I know (and those more in the know, please add a few bits if I step off course) the exams are tailored to the specialty and they're pretty tough (according to my boss who passed the Royal College of Surgeons exam to receive his FRCS designation). Once you pass the exam, then you receive the designation, Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians, Surgeons, etc. That's why you see the letters "FRCP" after some fully-licensed physicians' names. In essence it's one standardized way of ensuring quality work among billing physicians. Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CaesarCornelius Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Hey My preceptor told me that 30% of the surgical residents failed the Royal college exam last year. Which means that after 5 years of residency you have to hang around for another year before you can write again. CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 007 Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 eeeww. Are failure rates this high for other groups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kirsteen Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Hi there, Here's the link to the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada. It's got some interesting sub-links within the main site: rcpsc.medical.org/membership/ Specifically, here is some information on some of the current methods of examination at the Royal College: rcpsc.medical.org/residency/certification/examinerguide/index.php Also, here is their link to the specific exam requirements for the various specialties and sub-specialties: rcpsc.medical.org/information/index.php I asked my boss about the Royal College exams in Africa, since, in Kampala, they had just established a Royal College-like body which, while we were there, was in the midst of examining the skills of six residents. I was wondering if the examinations in both continents would be roughly equivalent. Indeed they were: composed of written, oral and practical exams that spanned hours and days. Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Actually, I don't think the the consequences for failing the LMCC II are that high (ie an extra year of residency). I think it's written in either first or second year of residency, and failing just means you have to write it again and pay the same fee. . . but otherwise you can continue as per normal. Same goes for failing part I of the LMCC: you still get into your residency program of choice, and you can still practice as normal. But you have to pass both parts before you can get a licence to practice on your own. . . so yeah, if you fail either exam repeatedly you can end up like that "not quite a doctor" that Elaine dated on Seinfeld. . . My knowledge of failure rates is limited specifically to one doctor who acts as an examiner and his personal impressions. I haven't seen any stats. But yes, he did say Surgeons are often the worst at taking the LMCC part II. It kind of makes sense (well, at least to me) because surgical residents are only exposed usually to the worst pathologies - ie if there's abdominal pain, it's unlikely for a surgeon to see Irritable Bowel Syndrome because these people shouldn't be sent for surgical consult by emerg or family docs, But in "general practice" (which is essentially what the LMCC II is examining for) IBS is way more common than an obstruction or appendicitis. That's apparently the sort of thing that happens in the LMCC part II - the people who have trouble are those that either overthink their answers, over-commit themselves (ie define something as a specific ligament tear rather than a soft tissue injury without enough evidence) or try to impress the examiners by coming up with a rare diagnosis (ie chest pain. . . must be an aortic dissection) and completely ignoring the more common, less interesting, obvious one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aneliz Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Failing the LMCC II doesn't result in an extra year of residency...but failing the royal college fellowship exams would... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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