The Holistic Nature of McGill and the Second Undergrad

[Zhivago]

Q1: Has anyone ever been called for an interview and/or waitlisted and/or accepted with their SECOND UNDERGRAD at McGill? Were you IP or OOP?

 

Q2: Also, why is McGill, one of the best universities in the world, willing to give IP students this second (technically THIRD) chance with the second undergrad, and not the French universities?

 

Q3: If I am IP, can I still submit my MCAT, even if it is “optional”?

[Zhivago]

Q1: Has anyone ever been called for an interview and/or waitlisted and/or accepted with their SECOND UNDERGRAD at McGill? Were you IP or OOP?

 

Q2: Also, why is McGill, one of the best universities in the world, willing to give IP students this second (technically THIRD) chance with the second undergrad, and not the French universities?

 

Q3: If I am IP, can I still submit my MCAT, even if it is “optional”?

 

I should add for Q1: What was you cGPA/GPA/Science GPA?

[Robin Hood]

Q1: Has anyone ever been called for an interview and/or waitlisted and/or accepted with their SECOND UNDERGRAD at McGill? Were you IP or OOP?

 

Q2: Also, why is McGill, one of the best universities in the world, willing to give IP students this second (technically THIRD) chance with the second undergrad, and not the French universities?

 

Q3: If I am IP, can I still submit my MCAT, even if it is “optional”?

 

Q2: It could be McGill's philosophy. I heard that Anglophone culture look at the individual, while Francophone culture only look at numbers.

 

Q3: Yes, and it could replace your Basic Science GPA.

[Zhivago]

Q2: It could be McGill's philosophy. I heard that Anglophone culture look at the individual, while Francophone culture only look at numbers.

 

Q3: Yes, and it could replace your Basic Science GPA.

You know, it is interesting you say that about the Anglo culture looking more at the individual and his circumstances. I actually notice the HUGE difference in Montreal hospitals and clinics. I am a Francophone living in the East End of Montreal, but I stopped going to Francophone hospitals and clinics after terrible, terrible experiences with doctor attitudes in that area. Now, I travel ALL THE WAY to the Jewish General Hospital, Saint-Mary’s or any Anglophone clinic if I need to see a health professional. The majority of their doctors studied at McGill or at an Anglophone university in the US & Canada.

 

I am sure that not all Francophone doctors are like that, but I find it is obvious/noticeable when someone comes from a program where they were selected based on a statistic and a program where they were selected with criteria that went way beyond the stats.

 

Anyway, maybe it is just me. But I am never going to a Franco hospital or clinic in Montreal by my own free will ever again.

 

Studies done on the probability of being sued for malpractice in the US showed that the surgeons who treat the patient like a human being, listen, and are cordial in their voice tone, are the least likely to get sued. Those who adopt a curt tone get sued several times throughout their career.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/ipc/pubs/2002AmbadySurgery.pdf

[smthg]

I think the new med programs at the franco universities might help with the whole problem of doctor treating you as a number They seem to put a lot of thought on the patient as a person and the admission process has somewhat changed to include testing how the person could react with patients!

 

But it depends on the specific doctor I guess. For example, my dermatologist is the curtest person, doesn't really answer your questions and doesn't listen to your needs (I have to make do with it because waiting lists are one year long here). The exact opposite of my GP, who takes the time to talk with me to know about my problem and elaborate a plan of action... I think she came from Laval and is younger.

 

But, seriously, having interviewed at McGill and the francos, I understand your point of view on the thing. Do the anglo hospitals have the same volume of patients?

[Med0123]

french speaking hospitals: low budget, old clinics, bad general atmosphere, heavy administration resulting in tired personnel

[Robin Hood]

You know, it is interesting you say that about the Anglo culture looking more at the individual and his circumstances. I actually notice the HUGE difference in Montreal hospitals and clinics. I am a Francophone living in the East End of Montreal, but I stopped going to Francophone hospitals and clinics after terrible, terrible experiences with doctor attitudes in that area. Now, I travel ALL THE WAY to the Jewish General Hospital, Saint-Mary’s or any Anglophone clinic if I need to see a health professional. The majority of their doctors studied at McGill or at an Anglophone university in the US & Canada.

 

I am sure that not all Francophone doctors are like that, but I find it is obvious/noticeable when someone comes from a program where they were selected based on a statistic and a program where they were selected with criteria that went way beyond the stats.

 

Anyway, maybe it is just me. But I am never going to a Franco hospital or clinic in Montreal by my own free will ever again.

 

Studies done on the probability of being sued for malpractice in the US showed that the surgeons who treat the patient like a human being, listen, and are cordial in their voice tone, are the least likely to get sued. Those who adopt a curt tone get sued several times throughout their career.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/ipc/pubs/2002AmbadySurgery.pdf

 

That's what to expect when you're at a school writing messages like this:

"17. Ma candidature peut-elle être considérée en tenant compte de circonstances extérieures qui ont affecté mes résultats scolaires ?

 

Les résultats scolaires sont évalués uniquement sur la base des relevés de notes sans aucune considération de circonstances atténuantes personnelles, par exemple des troubles majeurs de santé ou le décès d'un proche, des difficultés de couple ou de famille, des activités parascolaires trop exigeantes, etc. Les calculs des cotes de rendement collégiale (CRC) et universitaire (CRU) suivent des règles précises et connues avec des ajustements prédéterminés qui s'applique à des groupes de candidats (voir les sections 3A et 3B du Guide d'admission aux études de 1er cycle). Les cotes R visent à offrir la plus grande égalité de chances possible pour tous les candidats d'une catégorie donnée. Il s'agit d'une question de justice et d'équité. Ce sont des situations malheureuses, mais tous les dossiers scolaires doivent être évalués de la même façon, sans considérations particulières pour un, deux ou trois individus, De plus, combien d'autres candidats pourraient aussi invoquer des conditions d'études pas toujours favorables ?"

http://www.med.umontreal.ca/etudes/programme_formation/doctorat_medecine/admission/faq.html#17

 

Then UdeM wants us to show empathy while they could have convoyed their message is a less cold way.

Something good about Laval, they attach a human face to the admission (you have the adcoms on FB and email ready to answer your questions) and if you redo a course, only the one who contributes to your GPA will be used, so if you fail or score poorly in a course, your bad mark will be forgiven.

[zaphyraph]

First, I agree with you that the other universities should ignore your first bacc if you're doing well in your second, the way Mcgill's doing. However, I think it's not fair toward the french medical schools. Because, yes, Mcgill's giving you a third chance, but you can not apply during your undergrade, while you can do it in the three other universities, under some circumstances. Conclusion: They all treat applicants differently, but I'd say that they're all fair, depending of your background.

 

furthermore, I don't have any knowledge of english hospitals, but when I go to french clinics, they treat me extremely well and I have absolutely nothing no say agains the physicians I've encountered. You probably have bad experiences in french hospitals, but I don't think you can say that the university admissions process is involved because of those.

 

 

I'll finish by saying that there are not only numbers in the admission process of french medical schools... there's also the interview which counts for a lot in the final score and which is suppose to prevent the acceptance of "mean people". Also, I agree that ignoring special circumstance is kind of cold, but do you imagine the abuses which might result? People would just fake diseases or family problems to be favored. It wouldn't work.

[thebouque]

Mon humble opinion sur la question.

 

Par rapport au budget, les budgets cliniques et infrastructures sont équivalents du côté francophone et anglophone (dans les 2-2.5 milliards chacun pour le CHUM et pour MUHC). Le Jewish est un hopital assez rénové, mais allez au MGH, royal vic ou children's, et bien que ça soient des centres de santé extraordinaires, je dirais que leurs infrastructures ne sont pas mieux que celles du CHUM. Quant à l'administration, je ne sais pas si elle est plus complexe du côté francophone, mais selon moi il n'y a pas de différence majeure de ce côté. Enfin, les hopitaux anglophones possèdent beaucoup de médecins de l'université de montreal et vice versa.

 

Personellement je n'ai pas assez d'expérience avec les différents milieux pour dire qu'on est mieux traité dans une place ou dans une autre. Par contre, je pense que si il existe une différence, c'est davantage une question de mentalité que de formation/sélection ou autre. À Montréal, les anglophone ont un esprit communautaire extrèmement fort par rapport aux communautés francophones. Les quartiers du west island, de montreal west NDG, westmount et TMR ont une unité plus forte que les quartiers de l'est de la ville ou même qu'outrement. Donc je pense que cette atmosphère plus agréable retrouvée dans les hopitaux anglophones serait plutot le resultat de ce fort esprit communautaire que de réelles différences. Aussi n'oublions pas que les soins dispensées restent largement équivalents dans les deux réseaux.

[Zhivago]

First, I agree with you that the other universities should ignore your first bacc if you're doing well in your second, the way Mcgill's doing. However, I think it's not fair toward the french medical schools. Because, yes, Mcgill's giving you a third chance, but you can not apply during your undergrade, while you can do it in the three other universities, under some circumstances. Conclusion: They all treat applicants differently, but I'd say that they're all fair, depending of your background.

 

furthermore, I don't have any knowledge of english hospitals, but when I go to french clinics, they treat me extremely well and I have absolutely nothing no say agains the physicians I've encountered. You probably have bad experiences in french hospitals, but I don't think you can say that the university admissions process is involved because of those.

 

 

I'll finish by saying that there are not only numbers in the admission process of french medical schools... there's also the interview which counts for a lot in the final score and which is suppose to prevent the acceptance of "mean people". Also, I agree that ignoring special circumstance is kind of cold, but do you imagine the abuses which might result? People would just fake diseases or family problems to be favored. It wouldn't work.

You have a point.

 

However, French schools also discriminate based on your undergrad. For example, and A+ in my undergrad (Bachelor of Fine Arts) is not even a 29 R score.

[Zhivago]

Mon humble opinion sur la question.

 

Par rapport au budget, les budgets cliniques et infrastructures sont équivalents du côté francophone et anglophone (dans les 2-2.5 milliards chacun pour le CHUM et pour MUHC). Le Jewish est un hopital assez rénové, mais allez au MGH, royal vic ou children's, et bien que ça soient des centres de santé extraordinaires, je dirais que leurs infrastructures ne sont pas mieux que celles du CHUM. Quant à l'administration, je ne sais pas si elle est plus complexe du côté francophone, mais selon moi il n'y a pas de différence majeure de ce côté. Enfin, les hopitaux anglophones possèdent beaucoup de médecins de l'université de montreal et vice versa.

 

Personellement je n'ai pas assez d'expérience avec les différents milieux pour dire qu'on est mieux traité dans une place ou dans une autre. Par contre, je pense que si il existe une différence, c'est davantage une question de mentalité que de formation/sélection ou autre. À Montréal, les anglophone ont un esprit communautaire extrèmement fort par rapport aux communautés francophones. Les quartiers du west island, de montreal west NDG, westmount et TMR ont une unité plus forte que les quartiers de l'est de la ville ou même qu'outrement. Donc je pense que cette atmosphère plus agréable retrouvée dans les hopitaux anglophones serait plutot le resultat de ce fort esprit communautaire que de réelles différences. Aussi n'oublions pas que les soins dispensées restent largement équivalents dans les deux réseaux.

I think you are on to something here! :-P

 

Et je suis d'accord: la qualite de soins est equivalente dans les deux reseaux.

 

Je parlais plus des differences d'attitude en general.

[zaphyraph]

You have a point.

 

However, French schools also discriminate based on your undergrad. For example, and A+ in my undergrad (Bachelor of Fine Arts) is not even a 29 R score.

 

You also have a point haha! they're doing that to consider the difficulty of your undergrad, because it's false tu assume that a A+ in, let's say, theology worth the same as a A+ in engineering. Nevertheless, there sould be a minimum r score, I agree with that. A r score of 29 for a A+ shouldn't be possible.

[Zhivago]

You also have a point haha! they're doing that to consider the difficulty of your undergrad, because it's false tu assume that a A+ in, let's say, theology worth the same as a A+ in engineering. Nevertheless, there sould be a minimum r score, I agree with that. A r score of 29 for a A+ shouldn't be possible.

Unfortunately, because of that, French universities have less diversity in their programs because everyone studied science or a science program with a high IFD (Indice Force Difficulté). It is very rare that Fine Arts & Arts students get into a French University in Québec.

Since McGill doesn’t look at the IFD, they have classes that are more diverse. I also find that McGill is a lot more fair in its admission criteria than French universities. They really need to drop the IFD thing.

Moreover, I disagree that a theology course is easier than an engineering course. Most engineering courses are physics-based. I loved physics in Cegep and continued to take classes here and there throughout university; I got A and A+. I also took a theology class as an elective (Witchcraft & Magic). A friend in engineering took it as well. I got a C+ (I am used to getting As in my Fine Arts major) and he got a D-. It was HARD. Hardcore. Lots of reading, information organizing, analysis, research and interpretation.

Moreover, in my Fine Arts class, we write a lot of essays. And they are not easy; the grading is very subjective. Getting an A in those classes requires hard work. I see many students getting Cs and B-.

How do you determine that a Fine Arts class where it is very research & writing intensive is harder than an engineering class? How exactly do you measure that? I find that the Francophone universities discriminate on undergraduate degrees. I honestly find science classes a lot less stressful and much easier; you read the book, you do the exercises and there is no arguing with the teacher whether your answer was right or wrong. The answer just is. In a Fine Arts class, if the teacher doesn’t agree with your interpretation, your text organization, you’re screwed.

 

Science major who say that a theology class is easier than an engineering class have never taken a theology class and gotten you-know-what in the a**.

[Robin Hood]

Unfortunately, because of that, French universities have less diversity in their programs because everyone studied science or a science program with a high IFD (Indice Force Difficulté). It is very rare that Fine Arts & Arts students get into a French University in Québec.

Since McGill doesn’t look at the IFD, they have classes that are more diverse. I also find that McGill is a lot more fair in its admission criteria than French universities. They really need to drop the IFD thing.

Moreover, I disagree that a theology course is easier than an engineering course. Most engineering courses are physics-based. I loved physics in Cegep and continued to take classes here and there throughout university; I got A and A+. I also took a theology class as an elective (Witchcraft & Magic). A friend in engineering took it as well. I got a C+ (I am used to getting As in my Fine Arts major) and he got a D-. It was HARD. Hardcore. Lots of reading, information organizing, analysis, research and interpretation.

Moreover, in my Fine Arts class, we write a lot of essays. And they are not easy; the grading is very subjective. Getting an A in those classes requires hard work. I see many students getting Cs and B-.

How do you determine that a Fine Arts class where it is very research & writing intensive is harder than an engineering class? How exactly do you measure that? I find that the Francophone universities discriminate on undergraduate degrees. I honestly find science classes a lot less stressful and much easier; you read the book, you do the exercises and there is no arguing with the teacher whether your answer was right or wrong. The answer just is. In a Fine Arts class, if the teacher doesn’t agree with your interpretation, your text organization, you’re screwed.

 

Science major who say that a theology class is easier than an engineering class have never taken a theology class and gotten you-know-what in the a**.

 

A lot of it has to do with the strength of the groups, the reason for the IFD (atleast at UdeM) is because some programs are selective and only admit strong students, and it would be hard to get a good grade in it. Also, some programs are really difficult, good luck scoring above your peers in Math.

And BTW, Sherbrooke doesn't look at the IFD, they calculate a Z Score.

[Zhivago]

A lot of it has to do with the strength of the groups, the reason for the IFD (atleast at UdeM) is because some programs are selective and only admit strong students, and it would be hard to get a good grade in it. Also, some programs are really difficult, good luck scoring above your peers in Math.

And BTW, Sherbrooke doesn't look at the IFD, they calculate a Z Score.

Thanks Robin Hood. How do they calculate the Z score?

[zaphyraph]

Unfortunately, because of that, French universities have less diversity in their programs because everyone studied science or a science program with a high IFD (Indice Force Difficulté). It is very rare that Fine Arts & Arts students get into a French University in Québec.

Since McGill doesn’t look at the IFD, they have classes that are more diverse. I also find that McGill is a lot more fair in its admission criteria than French universities. They really need to drop the IFD thing.

Moreover, I disagree that a theology course is easier than an engineering course. Most engineering courses are physics-based. I loved physics in Cegep and continued to take classes here and there throughout university; I got A and A+. I also took a theology class as an elective (Witchcraft & Magic). A friend in engineering took it as well. I got a C+ (I am used to getting As in my Fine Arts major) and he got a D-. It was HARD. Hardcore. Lots of reading, information organizing, analysis, research and interpretation.

Moreover, in my Fine Arts class, we write a lot of essays. And they are not easy; the grading is very subjective. Getting an A in those classes requires hard work. I see many students getting Cs and B-.

How do you determine that a Fine Arts class where it is very research & writing intensive is harder than an engineering class? How exactly do you measure that? I find that the Francophone universities discriminate on undergraduate degrees. I honestly find science classes a lot less stressful and much easier; you read the book, you do the exercises and there is no arguing with the teacher whether your answer was right or wrong. The answer just is. In a Fine Arts class, if the teacher doesn’t agree with your interpretation, your text organization, you’re screwed.

 

Science major who say that a theology class is easier than an engineering class have never taken a theology class and gotten you-know-what in the a**.

 

You're right, as I usually say in french : j'ai parlé à travers mon chapeau. I don't actually have any idea of which program is tougher than another. And, I approve you're point : there's probably less diversity in french schools than Mcgill. However, they should find a way to evaluate canditates which is more accurate, But I don't think that only consider the GPA is a solution

[Robin Hood]

Thanks Robin Hood. How do they calculate the Z score?

 

They use your GPA and compare it to the average and standard deviation of your program. But I don't know if they use the GPA given by your university or calculate their own (usually, repeated failed courses are forgiven in your university's GPA).

I also don't know if they calculate a Z Score for each course than average them or just the GPA.

[Zhivago]

You're right, as I usually say in french : j'ai parlé à travers mon chapeau. I don't actually have any idea of which program is tougher than another. And, I approve you're point : there's probably less diversity in french schools than Mcgill. However, they should find a way to evaluate canditates which is more accurate, But I don't think that only consider the GPA is a solution

McGill takes WAY more than GPA into account.

 

Just to get invited to an interview, you need:

 

- GPA of ANY type of undergrad (IFD is not take into account)

- Science GPA (looked at separately)

- Extracurriculars/Volunteer experience

- 2 letters of recommendation

- Your essay

- CV: I am not sure about this one anymore.

- Optional in Quebec since last year: MCAT, if you think it will enhance your candidature

 

French Schools:

- ONLY: CRU/CRL/Z Score depending on universities

 

Conclusion: In French schools, AT FIRST, you are JUST an academic statistic to them. You are not FREE to major in whatever you want because the IFD might affect your CRU/CRL/Z score.

[future_doc]

McGill: 3 CV Highlights.

[thebouque]

McGill takes WAY more than GPA into account.

 

Just to get invited to an interview, you need:

 

- GPA of ANY type of undergrad (IFD is not take into account)

- Science GPA (looked at separately)

- Extracurriculars/Volunteer experience

- 2 letters of recommendation

- Your essay

- CV: I am not sure about this one anymore.

- Optional in Quebec since last year: MCAT, if you think it will enhance your candidature

 

French Schools:

- ONLY: CRU/CRL/Z Score depending on universities

 

Conclusion: In French schools, AT FIRST, you are JUST an academic statistic to them. You are not FREE to major in whatever you want because the IFD might affect your CRU/CRL/Z score.

 

I don't think that Zaphyrah said that McGill only takes the GPA into account. Also since the beginning of the thread, people agree that in French schools, at first, you are an academic statistic.

[future_doc]

K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) for French speaking schools. Academics gets you to interview and then it is a combo of MEMFI & Academics. Simple and effective!

[Zhivago]

K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) for French speaking schools. Academics gets you to interview and then it is a combo of MEMFI & Academics. Simple and effective!

Ha ha ha. I get it. Thank you future_doc. You rock!

[smthg]

In Med-P, they didn't see your essay before the interviews... only your summary. And, basically, the letters of rec and the CV served only a verification purpose

 

To get an interview, they looked at :

 

Cote R

CV highlights

Narrative summary

 

Whereas the other universities looked at your cote R. But, in the end, the MEMFI looked more at your implication in society than McGill's MMI did. I don't know if it's the same with undergrad?

 

Personally, I think the narrative is what sunk me down, if I look at my QAS grade. I don't have a reason for medicine, I never had an extraordinary experience that made me realize I wanted to be a doctor and that's what they look for I guess. Since I was able to play with toys, I've always been fascinated by doctors and biology... it's just something I've wanted to do more and more as the years passed. No sob stories here

[Robin Hood]

In Med-P, they didn't see your essay before the interviews... only your summary. And, basically, the letters of rec and the CV served only a verification purpose

 

To get an interview, they looked at :

 

Cote R

CV highlights

Narrative summary

 

Whereas the other universities looked at your cote R. But, in the end, the MEMFI looked more at your implication in society than McGill's MMI did. I don't know if it's the same with undergrad?

 

Personally, I think the narrative is what sunk me down, if I look at my QAS grade. I don't have a reason for medicine, I never had an extraordinary experience that made me realize I wanted to be a doctor and that's what they look for I guess. Since I was able to play with toys, I've always been fascinated by doctors and biology... it's just something I've wanted to do more and more as the years passed. No sob stories here

 

So your CV is not scored?

[smthg]

Not from what they told us It's only the interview and personal narrative after the MMI, at least for Med-P.