Dental School Outside of Canada

[Futur3]

I'm not planning to apply to dentistry but my question is out of curiosity. I have friends who are applying to Canadian dental schools and Aus/US schools as a back up.

 

 

So if somebody attended US/Aus, I know that tuition is about 60k/yr making 240k for tuition alone, and about ~100k for living expenses for those four years. So the total is approximately 340k. Correct me if I'm wrong, these are just estimates.

 

A dental student who just graduated makes approximately 100-150k/yr, based off google. So, assuming a dental graduate made 150k/yr after graduation, it would take about ~5 years to pay it all off(?). And I'm assuming most dental students plan on opening up a private practise, which is EVEN MORE debt after all of this.

 

I'm personally confused as to why people would go out of Canada and pay this much money to be in debt for that long. Am I missing something?

 

Please keep in mind I don't know much about the process, I'm just curious, so don't bash me about my approximations. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

Thanks

[McMarauder]

because it's difficult to get into a canadian dental school.

[McMarauder]

and because there are people who can come up with the money after not being able to get into a Canadian dental school.

[11lc44]

Because some things are worth the long hardship.

[Ostracized]

Some people really want to be dentists, and aren't concerned about the risks/burden. I've gone on record for not recommending it.

[phy241]

Well said:)

 

Because some things are worth the long hardship.

[decay]

Whats wrong with taking 5 years to pay off your debt while still living comfortably?

[Ostracized]

Whats wrong with taking 5 years to pay off your debt while still living comfortably?

 

Ha, no, 5-6 years of 100% of your after-tax income. Maybe 15-20 years while living comfortably.

[decay]

Ha, no, 5-6 years of 100% of your after-tax income. Maybe 15-20 years while living comfortably.

 

Living comfortably is a relative term. I'm not used to riches so I think I'll be fine.

[koft]

Ha, no, 5-6 years of 100% of your after-tax income. Maybe 15-20 years while living comfortably.

 

You seem pretty jaded for only being 1 year out? I am guessing you are practicing in the city? or don't want more competition?

[Divine89]

Keep in mind when first starting out you will almost certainly join an existing practice to build up future client base. So ~5 years to pay off student debt, then work an additional 5+ years under another practice to build up savings (and gain experience) to either expand and start your own practice or buy into a partnership.

 

So debt re-payment should go by a bit smoother when moving into private practice if done with a bit of a plan. At least this is roughly the path my dentist did and is doing quite well.

[mrewmrew]

Keep in mind when first starting out you will almost certainly join an existing practice to build up future client base. So ~5 years to pay off student debt, then work an additional 5+ years under another practice to build up savings (and gain experience) to either expand and start your own practice or buy into a partnership.

 

So debt re-payment should go by a bit smoother when moving into private practice if done with a bit of a plan. At least this is roughly the path my dentist did and is doing quite well.

 

There is absolutely no way anyone is going to pay off 350k of debt working as an associate in 5 years. Probably will take 4 times as long as that if you plan to live comfortably and support a family with an associates pay, especially if you're practicing in a crowded urban center. Also, from what I've read, todays dental market (at least for general dentistry) is highly competitive and very different from when your dentist probably started out 20 years ago. The competitiveness is amplified greatly if you want to live/work remotely close to big urban centers.

 

On a separate note, I actually have a question regarding the ability of international dental grads to land good associateships, especially in urban centers. Clinic owners are likely very familiar with the dental educational system in Canada and the US. They're also people who want to hire the best associates, and they're probably biased, especially when they're going to have a lot of associates to choose from a few years down the road. If I were a clinic owner looking for a associate to possibly partner with in the future and I had a lot of them to choose from, I would definitely hire the grads from Canadian schools. I'm not saying Canadian schools are better than Aussie schools (since CDA obviously accredited them), but people will obviously be biased and its common knowledge, at least in the dental world, that Canadian schools accept the best and strongest applicants, whereas the others go international. For a private clinic owner to hire an associate is a huge personal financial investment, for them to choose a random international over a Canadian grad is the equivalent of a private family practice owner in the States hiring a Carib grad over an ivy league grad. Therefore, without any professional connection, I don't see international grads possibly out competing Canadian grads for associateships. It's not like there's an overabundance of associateships out there or anything.

 

As well, Canadian grads have the flexibility to go to the states to practice and even apply for specialty programs there. This is not possible for Aussie grads since the US does not recognize the AUS degree as equivalent (or from any country other than US and CAN for that matter). That being said, I also don't see how any international grads can possibly outcompete a Canadian grad and get into one of the extremely competitive (even for CAN grads) specialty training programs here. Are international grads and board exam writers basically forced into general dentistry... which is getting more and more competitive every year due to the CDA's recent decisions to accredit schools from all four corners of the globe and their decision to let everyone write the qualifying exam without the 2 years of Canadian education previously required?

[mrewmrew]

I'm not planning to apply to dentistry but my question is out of curiosity. I have friends who are applying to Canadian dental schools and Aus/US schools as a back up.

 

 

So if somebody attended US/Aus, I know that tuition is about 60k/yr making 240k for tuition alone, and about ~100k for living expenses for those four years. So the total is approximately 340k. Correct me if I'm wrong, these are just estimates.

 

A dental student who just graduated makes approximately 100-150k/yr, based off google. So, assuming a dental graduate made 150k/yr after graduation, it would take about ~5 years to pay it all off(?). And I'm assuming most dental students plan on opening up a private practise, which is EVEN MORE debt after all of this.

 

I'm personally confused as to why people would go out of Canada and pay this much money to be in debt for that long. Am I missing something?

 

Please keep in mind I don't know much about the process, I'm just curious, so don't bash me about my approximations. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

Thanks

 

I don't think US schools should be grouped in the same category as Aussie schools. At least you can practice in the US (I think everyone can agree the US provides wayyyyy more opportunites than Canada in practically every field) after graduating from an American school, which is something you can't do graduating from Australia. You also have access to loads of specialty programs in the States. To me, going to the US is a much more sound investment then going to Australia, especially since the cost of living is likely a lot lot lot lot lot lower in many cities in the States compared to Sydney or Melbourne........... Tuition and instrument prices are pretty much the same though.

[koft]

I don't think US schools should be grouped in the same category as Aussie schools. At least you can practice in the US (I think everyone can agree the US provides wayyyyy more opportunites than Canada in practically every field) after graduating from an American school, which is something you can't do graduating from Australia. You also have access to loads of specialty programs in the States. To me, going to the US is a much more sound investment then going to Australia, especially since the cost of living is likely a lot lot lot lot lot lower in many cities in the States compared to Sydney or Melbourne........... Tuition and instrument prices are pretty much the same though.

 

Hey D or D,

 

Are you a practicing DDS, a D school students or an undergrad?

 

Are you certain US provide better opportunity than Canada in terms of general dentistry? From my knowledge, I still think Canada provides better opportunity than the US.

 

From your previous quote, I agree 350k is a huge debt that shouldn't be taken lightly, where are you getting up to 20 years to pay off? As for looking for an associate from an owner point of view, depending on where you want to go, it is a simple macro-economics, supply and demands. City vs. rural.

[Ostracized]

Hey D or D,

 

Are you a practicing DDS, a D school students or an undergrad?

 

Are you certain US provide better opportunity than Canada in terms of general dentistry? From my knowledge, I still think Canada provides better opportunity than the US.

 

From your previous quote, I agree 350k is a huge debt that shouldn't be taken lightly, where are you getting up to 20 years to pay off? As for looking for an associate from an owner point of view, depending on where you want to go, it is a simple macro-economics, supply and demands. City vs. rural.

 

People take 20 years to comfortably pay off a $350K mortgage on a house, so I think it is reasonable. Yeah, you can pay it off in 4-7 years if you live poverty level, but how many people are going to spend their prime years doing that?

[mrewmrew]

Hey D or D,

 

Are you a practicing DDS, a D school students or an undergrad?

 

Are you certain US provide better opportunity than Canada in terms of general dentistry? From my knowledge, I still think Canada provides better opportunity than the US.

 

From your previous quote, I agree 350k is a huge debt that shouldn't be taken lightly, where are you getting up to 20 years to pay off? As for looking for an associate from an owner point of view, depending on where you want to go, it is a simple macro-economics, supply and demands. City vs. rural.

 

I am in undergrad but I think I've done a fair amount of research into this profession. I do believe the US provides more opportunities for dentists than in Canada. For starters, they don't provide accreditation to the whole load of schools from all around the world that the CDA has suddenly provided (New Zealand...Ireland...Australia? are you kidding me. I wonder how many Canadian dental school students head over to Australia after completing dental school here. Probably 1 +- 1. Compare that to the whole bunch of Canadians going to Aus to study dentistry with the aim of coming back). As well, the US has way more specialty spots than in Canada. Moreoever, the ADA lists the average net income for general dentists who own their own practices to be 192k in the States. I'm sure this is higher than in Canada. I'm also sure there are more associate jobs available and patients to go around in the states because of their 10x higher population... but I have no evidence for that.

 

And about the clinic owners looking for associates thing... I think it depends on your perception of rural. I'm sure Iqaluit Nunavut is always hiring, but in terms of the suburbs surrounding big urban centers like Toronto and Vancouver... how far do you have to travel to be considered rural? 10 years from now who knows, perhaps 2 hours? 3? 5? Even nowadays, I live maybe 1.5 hours away from Toronto and I see general dentists set up in literally every plaza.

 

There's actually a really really disturbing amount of new dental grads (mostly general dentists) entering the Canadian market these days, compared to back in the days where only a relatively tiny handful from Canadian and US schools would be introduced every year. The only saving grace I see is that at least all the accreditation stuff and reciprocal agreements is largely in the hands of the CDA and not the government, unlike medicine (correct me if I'm wrong on this point). Politics and leadership and ideas within the CDA are always changing too. I'm sure the CDA is not run by a bunch of clueless people sitting on one-foot-tall chairs wearing tinfoil hats... they must keep records and statistics on saturation and population/dentist ratios across Canada... hopefully they'll make changes to class size and reciprocity agreements as necessary. But as of now, their agreements with other countries at least doubled or perhaps tripled the amount of new dentists entering Canada every year. Like you said... in terms of supply and demand for dentists and associates... supply will exceed demand (if not already).

 

The way things are going now, honestly, I think the safest bet would be to try to do a specialty, even though its hard as hell for Canadian grads and I'm gonna go as far as to say impossible for international grads, or move to the States to practice general dentistry where at least the only competition for associate jobs you'll face is from US grads.

[koft]

People take 20 years to comfortably pay off a $350K mortgage on a house, so I think it is reasonable. Yeah, you can pay it off in 4-7 years if you live poverty level, but how many people are going to spend their prime years doing that?

 

I am not trying to paint a pretty pictures.

 

Yes on a mortgage, it typically takes 20 years to pay off. But you are also talking about a fixed amortization period with a fixed terms, in which breaking the terms and conditions of the mortgage poses a penalty, I know I am simplifying it. Which is completely different from a personal loan.

 

I am 6 years out. (but I specialized, so it is a bit diff for me). I am speaking strictly from my colleagues' experiences. I think the avg debt in my year was around 120k, some are at 200k, which is not 300+, but all of them are debt free (those who I still kept in touch), excluding business debt from building or purchasing a practice.

 

It honestly depends where you ended up practicing. There are many reasons you see average salary of dentist around 120 - 150k. You should talk to your accountant and financial adviser for details.

 

Honestly, do you know how much it costs to build a 4 ops clinic from the ground up, or practicing a pre-existing practice? As well, some ppl will never become an owner, because they don't want to deal with the business side of thing, just go in and get a cut of collected and call it a day.

 

The timeline to pay a practice off is amortized over 10 years. Big banks are the most conservative in their lending practice in terms of small business loan. They have no problem lending you to purchase a practice, because it is stable investment for them.

 

Seriously, living below the poverty line? Who told you to buy a million dollar home right away, a nice car, and fancy meals every week. I think as long as you have your basic necessities fulfilled you are living above the poverty line.

 

So i don't think it will take 20 years to pay off 350k, but will be a bit longer compared going to a Canadian school and much harder to find an associate position once graduated, but not impossible.

 

At the end of the day, it is only a job... Do it if you enjoy working in someone' mouth.

 

I always have a laugh with my colorectal surgeon friends, we both work on the GI tract, the bacterial count are quite similar just the species are different, they both can stink....

[Ostracized]

Within 3-4 years, more than half of newly licensed dentists in Canada will have been trained in countries other than Canada.

[Ostracized]

I am not trying to paint a pretty pictures.

 

Yes on a mortgage, it typically takes 20 years to pay off. But you are also talking about a fixed amortization period with a fixed terms, in which breaking the terms and conditions of the mortgage poses a penalty, I know I am simplifying it. Which is completely different from a personal loan.

 

I am 6 years out. (but I specialized, so it is a bit diff for me). I am speaking strictly from my colleagues' experiences. I think the avg debt in my year was around 120k, some are at 200k, which is not 300+, but all of them are debt free (those who I still kept in touch), excluding business debt from building or purchasing a practice.

 

It honestly depends where you ended up practicing. There are many reasons you see average salary of dentist around 120 - 150k. You should talk to your accountant and financial adviser for details.

 

Honestly, do you know how much it costs to build a 4 ops clinic from the ground up, or practicing a pre-existing practice? As well, some ppl will never become an owner, because they don't want to deal with the business side of thing, just go in and get a cut of collected and call it a day.

 

The timeline to pay a practice off is amortized over 10 years. Big banks are the most conservative in their lending practice in terms of small business loan. They have no problem lending you to purchase a practice, because it is stable investment for them.

 

Seriously, living below the poverty line? Who told you to buy a million dollar home right away, a nice car, and fancy meals every week. I think as long as you have your basic necessities fulfilled you are living above the poverty line.

 

So i don't think it will take 20 years to pay off 350k, but will be a bit longer compared going to a Canadian school and much harder to find an associate position once graduated, but not impossible.

 

At the end of the day, it is only a job... Do it if you enjoy working in someone' mouth.

 

I always have a laugh with my colorectal surgeon friends, we both work on the GI tract, the bacterial count are quite similar just the species are different, they both can stink....

 

Well, by poverty level I pretty much meant not paying for rent or mortgage or food or travel or car. I lived with my parents after graduating and paid down my relatively very small debt in under a year. I had meals and a roof over my head. If you have a spouse perhaps they can pay the bills while you put your money towards debt. Obviously different people will decide to pay it off at different rates.

 

It could be worse, of course. I read a thread on **DELETED** by a new grad American lawyer who was $350K in debt from school and was earning $35K/year as an attorney. Now that is screwed.

[mrewmrew]

Well, by poverty level I pretty much meant not paying for rent or mortgage or food or travel or car. I lived with my parents after graduating and paid down my relatively very small debt in under a year. I had meals and a roof over my head. If you have a spouse perhaps they can pay the bills while you put your money towards debt. Obviously different people will decide to pay it off at different rates.

 

It could be worse, of course. I read a thread on **DELETED** by a new grad American lawyer who was $350K in debt from school and was earning $35K/year as an attorney. Now that is screwed.

 

Hey I read that too I think ahaha. I think he ended up just completely ignoring all of his creditors calls and threats of law suits and living in ignorant bliss with his girlfriend.

[koft]

I am in undergrad but I think I've done a fair amount of research into this profession. I do believe the US provides more opportunities for dentists than in Canada. For starters, they don't provide accreditation to the whole load of schools from all around the world that the CDA has suddenly provided (New Zealand...Ireland...Australia? are you kidding me. I wonder how many Canadian dental school students head over to Australia after completing dental school here. Probably 1 +- 1. Compare that to the whole bunch of Canadians going to Aus to study dentistry with the aim of coming back). As well, the US has way more specialty spots than in Canada. Moreoever, the ADA lists the average net income for general dentists who own their own practices to be 192k in the States. I'm sure this is higher than in Canada. I'm also sure there are more associate jobs available and patients to go around in the states because of their 10x higher population... but I have no evidence for that.

 

And about the clinic owners looking for associates thing... I think it depends on your perception of rural. I'm sure Iqaluit Nunavut is always hiring, but in terms of the suburbs surrounding big urban centers like Toronto and Vancouver... how far do you have to travel to be considered rural? 10 years from now who knows, perhaps 2 hours? 3? 5? Even nowadays, I live maybe 1.5 hours away from Toronto and I see general dentists set up in literally every plaza.

 

There's actually a really really disturbing amount of new dental grads (mostly general dentists) entering the Canadian market these days, compared to back in the days where only a relatively tiny handful from Canadian and US schools would be introduced every year. The only saving grace I see is that at least all the accreditation stuff and reciprocal agreements is largely in the hands of the CDA and not the government, unlike medicine (correct me if I'm wrong on this point). Politics and leadership and ideas within the CDA are always changing too. I'm sure the CDA is not run by a bunch of clueless people sitting on one-foot-tall chairs wearing tinfoil hats... they must keep records and statistics on saturation and population/dentist ratios across Canada... hopefully they'll make changes to class size and reciprocity agreements as necessary. But as of now, their agreements with other countries at least doubled or perhaps tripled the amount of new dentists entering Canada every year. Like you said... in terms of supply and demand for dentists and associates... supply will exceed demand (if not already).

 

The way things are going now, honestly, I think the safest bet would be to try to do a specialty, even though its hard as hell for Canadian grads and I'm gonna go as far as to say impossible for international grads, or move to the States to practice general dentistry where at least the only competition for associate jobs you'll face is from US grads.

 

I agree recently there are lots of changes to the accreditation process for GP to practice in Canada which allows more foreign trained DDS to work.

 

When I said rural, i didn't mean timmins, thunder bay, the sault, etc. Of course, if the life style suits you, you are going to do really well there. Most of my friends are within 1.5 hours away from GTA / GVR and doing quite well and living comfortably with min to no personal debt (not talking about business debt)

 

As for doubling and tripling, I will wait for the stats to prove it. (I am excluding ITD program graduates, we are talking purely challenge the board process)

 

The problem with the states is the same with supply and demands if you go to New York, Florida, Cali, and big cities. One other thing you are forgetting is that liability insurance is less here than south of the boarder.

 

Sure DDS at every plaza, if the population cannot sustain it, they will fold, how many offices have you seen go belly up?

 

As for the avg salary of DDS in Can vs US, there are reason for it. tax rate differences and tax shelter strategy is diff.

 

Specializing might not be the solution you are losing several years of earning and some programs require tuitions fee. So you will be further in debt.

[donnadee]

Within 3-4 years, more than half of newly licensed dentists in Canada will have been trained in countries other than Canada.

 

yes i can actually attest to this happening even by next yr probably, not even 3-4yrs...i was looking over at stats on dentistry in canada, and by 2012 i think, there was a 50:50 ratio of foreign trained: canadian dentists in ontario. i will post the exact link if i find it. i posted it in one of the threads earlier

[donnadee]

here is the quote from RCDSO's website:

 

"Here in Ontario, the internationally trained are looking at a level playing field with registrants from within Canada. The Ontario 2012 statistic for registrants whose training was outside of Canada compared to registrants from within Canada was virtually identical, a 50/50 split. This is an exceptional number and possibly higher than any other profession."

 

http://www.rcdso.org/BecomeADentistInOntario/HowisTrainingCompletedOutsideofCanadaAssessed/Introduction/GlobalDifferences

[donnadee]

I agree recently there are lots of changes to the accreditation process for GP to practice in Canada which allows more foreign trained DDS to work.

 

When I said rural, i didn't mean timmins, thunder bay, the sault, etc. Of course, if the life style suits you, you are going to do really well there. Most of my friends are within 1.5 hours away from GTA / GVR and doing quite well and living comfortably with min to no personal debt (not talking about business debt)

 

As for doubling and tripling, I will wait for the stats to prove it. (I am excluding ITD program graduates, we are talking purely challenge the board process)

 

The problem with the states is the same with supply and demands if you go to New York, Florida, Cali, and big cities. One other thing you are forgetting is that liability insurance is less here than south of the boarder.

 

Sure DDS at every plaza, if the population cannot sustain it, they will fold, how many offices have you seen go belly up?

 

As for the avg salary of DDS in Can vs US, there are reason for it. tax rate differences and tax shelter strategy is diff.

 

Specializing might not be the solution you are losing several years of earning and some programs require tuitions fee. So you will be further in debt.

 

but you ended up specializing...you think maybe some specialties are less risky than others due to higher income potential? thats quite possible obviously as a lot of general dentists are choosing to keeping procedures in house

[Ostracized]

Thanks for posting that - interesting read! A quote that I found in another section on that website answers a question that DMD or Death brought up about regulators monitoring dentist demographics.

 

"Regulators, however, do not look at issues of manpower and employment possibilities when granting licensure. Our sole mandate is to protect the public and register or license anyone who meets the Canadian standard of competency"

 

http://www.rcdso.org/BecomeADentistInOntario/HowisTrainingCompletedOutsideofCanadaAssessed/Introduction/EasierToApply