PT/OT as a backup to Medicine....

[Reagan888]

So I was wondering if anyone here has considered doing a Masters in PT/OT, and then re-applying to medical school, if they don't get into medicine straight out of undergrad?

 

Does a MSc (OT) or a MSc (PT) count towards doing a "masters degree", such that at some medical schools you get a small % boost to your GPA, or you are eligible to apply in the "Masters/Graduate" pool?

 

OR

 

Does PT/OT just count as "professional school program", where your PT/OT marks will not be looked at when re-applying to medical school? (in this case the only marks that WILL be looked at are those from undergrad..)

 

Thanks a lot!

[helloyou]

As an applicant whose greatest desire is to get accepted into an OT program and work as a healthcare professional, I dislike seeing other applicants use PT or OT as 'backups' to their ultimate career goal of medicine. While I understand that most of us have to settle or something just in case our dreams don't pan out, it is very discouraging to know that someone out there may take another applicant's spot when it is not necessarily what he or she wanted and the sole intention is to use it as a stepping stone.

[mattyj2]

I'm happy you posted this, because I was thinking of trying to do something similar.

 

I would imagine it depends on the school. For instance, At UBC it states clearly that Graduate students will receive no preference through the application process, but it does say that marks obtained at a graduate level will be included in the pre-admission calculation of GPA. So while the MSc may not benefit you through a "Master's/Graduate" pool, it does give you a chance to add courses to your GPA calculation. I haven't researched other schools as much, but I'm assuming that at least a few others have similar policies.

 

helloyou, I can understand the frustration in seeing other students using PT and OT as simply a jumping off point, but I think it's just good planning on those students' part. They get the opportunity to continue gaining experience and potentially improve their marks, while also setting themselves up to one day become an OT or PT if med school doesn't pan out. For someone who does not want to necessarily be a PT or OT, I think they may be more likely to attempt a second undergrad degree to improve their application than attempt a Master's program.

That's all just my opinion though.

[LeBronto2019]

As an applicant whose greatest desire is to get accepted into an OT program and work as a healthcare professional, I dislike seeing other applicants use PT or OT as 'backups' to their ultimate career goal of medicine. While I understand that most of us have to settle or something just in case our dreams don't pan out, it is very discouraging to know that someone out there may take another applicant's spot when it is not necessarily what he or she wanted and the sole intention is to use it as a stepping stone.

 

THANK YOU! I do not like people who do that. I'm at UofA and there are people who, although not PT or OT, want to genuinely go into pharmacy for example. But they cant get accepted because all the premeds that dont get into med school or use pharmacy as an intermediate take their spots. It may be smart for them so they do not waste more time in school in case med school doesnt work out but I still dont think its fair for people who actually want to get into those programs. Its just hard to do anything because they worked hard for good marks, get involved outside of school, and have good reference letters so they basically can go into any program theyd like. Keep working hard and I hope you get into the OT program of your choice! You truly deserve it.

[Parachute]

I don’t see having a backup as a bad thing. It’s important to have backups because not everyone gets into med school/dental school/pharmacy or whatever else they want to. So if a masters degree helps, then why not do it? And that way, you can do something in the healthcare field and gain more insight into different opportunities.

[Leon]

I'm on the fence about this.

 

To play the Devil's advocate : If the genuinely interested pharm/OT/PT students really wanted to get in, maybe they should have worked just as hard, if not harder, than premeds to beat them to the spot? What's stopping you from getting a 3.8+ and out competing someone who is applying as a backup?

 

My point is that nothing in life is fair and you have to reach for what you want. Saying it's "unfair" XYZ is applying to a program where you want to be isn't going to work. If you really want it, work hard and get it! I don't see the sense in blaming anyone else and saying "they are taking my spot away when they don't even really want it."

[mattyj2]

I'm on the fence about this.

 

To play the Devil's advocate : If the genuinely interested pharm/OT/PT students really wanted to get in, maybe they should have worked just as hard, if not harder, than premeds to beat them to the spot? What's stopping you from getting a 3.8+ and out competing someone who is applying as a backup?

 

My point is that nothing in life is fair and you have to reach for what you want. Saying it's "unfair" XYZ is applying to a program where you want to be isn't going to work. If you really want it, work hard and get it! I don't see the sense in blaming anyone else and saying "they are taking my spot away when they don't even really want it."

 

Couldn't agree more. That being said, with the way that competitive admission requirements are trending upwards you're pretty much going to have to have a med school worthy GPA and EC's to get into PT or OT in a few years.

[LeBronto2019]

Couldn't agree more. That being said, with the way that competitive admission requirements are trending upwards you're pretty much going to have to have a med school worthy GPA and EC's to get into PT or OT in a few years.

 

Yeah, I think you and Leon are both right. People should work harder if they truly want to get into something. I just think that same logic could also be put on those premeds who dont get into med. Why dont they just work harder to get into med school? Personally, I know people who struggle in school and do all they can but still may not reach their goals. They work hard, ask for help, review, etc. and I honestly think they are genuinely great human beings that I hope get into their fields of interest because they are amazing; however, they just dont do well in school. I've always been big on the idea that admissions need to be as holistic as possible to understand the person but yes, obviously they need to be academically competent if they deal with peoples health. I dont know haha im confused myself. Its hard to really empathize with them because im doing well in school, im doing things outside school that im passionate about, not trying to impress adcoms by having a typical premed CV, and im optimistic about my aspirations of getting into med. But I just feel for people who have difficulties and its heartbreaking to see that because they may not do well in a standard classroom setting, they wont be able to live their dreams.

[Mhunte03]

I don't know, for me it's the same reason I don't apply to teachers college. I have a strong background in ECE and I would get in no problem. But morally it's just not worth it in my opinion, to take a spot from someone who actually wants to be a teacher, and to go into a field that yes, I could do, but am not passionate about. Just my two cents.

[mattyj2]

doctak, I can definitely get that, I know numerous people as well who excel at so many things outside of the classroom but just can't quite find success in a traditional university setting. It's unfortunate, but I guess kind of like what you were saying I can have trouble feeling bad for them when I'm doing well in class.

 

I suppose at one end of the spectrum you have those students who are applying to OT and PT with the sole purpose of trying to improve their med school applications, at at the other end are those who have no interest in med school and just want to be PT's or OT's. Somewhere in the middle (where I would put myself) are students who would be happy being a PT or OT but still want to give med school a shot.

 

It's easy to be frustrated with the one's trying to use PT as a jumping off point for other career aspirations, but at the end of the day I guess those students will always exist and the best I or anyone else can do is use them as extra motivation to improve our own PT applications for the time being.

[LeBronto2019]

yeah exactly. I would put myself in your place of the spectrum as well. Some people may not want to waste time continuously trying to get into med so they'll do PT/OT first and, like you said, try to improve their chances using that. Personally, I'd give myself probably 2-3 chances of applying for med before I decide to move onto something else. Doesn't seem rational to keep taking out years of life when it clearly isnt working. Then do something like PT/OT after that point.

[Asrafil]

I think it is a bit unfair that someone with the sole purpose of going to med school applies to PT/OT before. But then again, the PT/OT applicant should work as hard as they can to get into the program! I also put myself in the med school applicant's shoes. I would probably do the same thing. You do what you gotta do to achieve your hopes and dreams.

 

That being said, the PT/OT applicant must work hard to meet the GPA requirements. Once there, they should have no problem whatsoever to beat the med students. This is because the I strongly believe that someone who really wants to do PT or OT would be more impressive than a med school applicant during an interview.

 

 

also, the GPA cutoff to get into PT, its not THAT crazy....yet

[Epona]

To the OP: I think you should contact the schools directly and ask how they would treat grades from a PT or OT degree. I would guess that not many would count PT/OT marks towards GPA since it is a professional masters program, but like I said that is just a guess.

 

To those that disagree with someone having a back-up plan, I have a difficult time seeing where you come from. Of course, I am biased - I am just starting out a professional program and am applying to medical school for the second time after being rejected last year.

 

I don't know why it so "unfair" that I have gained a position in a professional school. I worked my butt off to get good grades, and did things I genuinely enjoyed during undergraduate to become more well rounded (mostly to prepare myself for a research pathway, because that was where I was headed). Why is so wrong to want to pursue a dream? What should I do instead? Work at a minimum wage job while reapplying? And why would taking this job "away" from someone else be any less worse than taking a spot "away" from another applicant?

 

Just because someone had a childhood dream of being (whatever health care profession) does not mean they will be better for the job. Passion is something that can be developed. I'm very passionate about science and improving health and research, and since I didn't get into medicine I chose a field that could also satisfy those passions. I am proud to be in the professional program I am in, and know I will do the best I can to provide the best care I can. Just because this was not my first choice of profession does not mean I will be any less successful.

 

I also think it would be more productive to focus on things that are actually unfair in admissions processes - like the fact that there is an over-representation of individuals from wealthy background or urban centres, and an under-representation of certain minority groups. These issues likely stem from systematic biases for or against different groups, or barriers somewhere along the academic pathway. If you are truly passionate about a health care profession, and there are no barriers holding you back, then you should be able to get into said program regardless if there are individuals there who aren't as "passionate" as you.

[LeBronto2019]

I think we all understand that and honestly, it makes more sense, is smarter, and is just a rational thing to do. Why not save my own butt by going into a professional program before applying for med school and not waste time? I'm being honest in saying that I've considered OT before med school and if I don't get in next year, it would get me good exposure to health field, be in an area that is quite interesting (rehab, design, clinical, etc.), and would be better than taking a year off working. So you are absolutely right with your points.

 

All we are saying is that, in our hearts, we would rather have someone that genuinely wants to do it to get in. We know others will apply and get in, whether its an intermediate program or not, and we cant control that. Our minds say: go into OT, get the most out of these two years, etc. Our hearts say: try again for med, let someone who wants to do OT as passion this year, and dont give up on med by playing it safe.

[mattyj2]

I think it is a bit unfair that someone with the sole purpose of going to med school applies to PT/OT before. But then again, the PT/OT applicant should work as hard as they can to get into the program! I also put myself in the med school applicant's shoes. I would probably do the same thing. You do what you gotta do to achieve your hopes and dreams.

 

That being said, the PT/OT applicant must work hard to meet the GPA requirements. Once there, they should have no problem whatsoever to beat the med students. This is because the I strongly believe that someone who really wants to do PT or OT would be more impressive than a med school applicant during an interview.

 

 

also, the GPA cutoff to get into PT, its not THAT crazy....yet

 

 

Unfortunately I don't think it would work out quite that easily for the PT/OT students who make it to the interview stage given that so many schools are using the MMI format. When you're being asked to work with an actor in a situation, answer general ethical questions regarding healthcare, etc. instead of questions along the lines of, "Why do you want to be a physiotherapist?", it would make it pretty hard to distinguish yourself from a med school applicant on passion alone.

[Pink Tulip]

So I was wondering if anyone here has considered doing a Masters in PT/OT, and then re-applying to medical school, if they don't get into medicine straight out of undergrad?

 

Does a MSc (OT) or a MSc (PT) count towards doing a "masters degree", such that at some medical schools you get a small % boost to your GPA, or you are eligible to apply in the "Masters/Graduate" pool?

 

OR

 

Does PT/OT just count as "professional school program", where your PT/OT marks will not be looked at when re-applying to medical school? (in this case the only marks that WILL be looked at are those from undergrad..)

 

Thanks a lot!

 

It would count as a Master's degree, unless the school specifically suggests it has a different protocol for professional masters. That being said, you won't really be doing research and it will take a lot of effort to get better grades, so it's not the greatest backup if you're just using it as a lee-way. Have you not considered just continuing a Master's degree in your field? It would probably be much more beneficial to getting into Medicine. You're at a disadvantage with the PT/OT degrees because all you have to show is that you learned something completely different for two years, no research and no clinical practice (I wouldn't really count placements as much clinical practice). If you work as an OT/PT for a couple years after, then yes it's an advantage.

 

I'd hope you enjoy the professions before you use them as a backup because you might be stuck with them! Your clients really wouldn't appreciate someone who doesn't like their job making life-changing choices about their care.

[Physio101]

[quote name=Pink Tulip;889412It would probably be much more beneficial to getting into Medicine. You're at a disadvantage with the PT/OT degrees because all you have to show is that you learned something completely different for two years' date=' no research and no clinical practice (I wouldn't really count placements as much clinical practice). If you work as an OT/PT for a couple years after, then yes it's an advantage.

 

QUOTE]

 

Uhhhh how can you say placements are not clinical practice.... wtf else is it?

[Legion]

It would count as a Master's degree, unless the school specifically suggests it has a different protocol for professional masters. That being said, you won't really be doing research and it will take a lot of effort to get better grades, so it's not the greatest backup if you're just using it as a lee-way. Have you not considered just continuing a Master's degree in your field? It would probably be much more beneficial to getting into Medicine. You're at a disadvantage with the PT/OT degrees because all you have to show is that you learned something completely different for two years, no research and no clinical practice (I wouldn't really count placements as much clinical practice). If you work as an OT/PT for a couple years after, then yes it's an advantage.

 

I'd hope you enjoy the professions before you use them as a backup because you might be stuck with them! Your clients really wouldn't appreciate someone who doesn't like their job making life-changing choices about their care.

 

lol. What are you talking about?

[dabby]

...You're at a disadvantage with the PT/OT degrees because all you have to show is that you learned something completely different for two years, no research and no clinical practice (I wouldn't really count placements as much clinical practice)....

 

I'm not sure if it is like this at all universities or just U of T, but we are definitely going to get research experience (we have a full year thesis research project with a faculty advisor) and our clinical placements total 7+ months (21 weeks with 5 days/week and 7 weeks with 4 days/week) - that has got to count for something, haha.

[Leon]

I'm going to selectively quote your post on two points I'd like to respond to:

 

Personally, I know people who struggle in school and do all they can but still may not reach their goals. They work hard, ask for help, review, etc. and I honestly think they are genuinely great human beings that I hope get into their fields of interest because they are amazing; however, they just dont do well in school. I've always been big on the idea that admissions need to be as holistic as possible to understand the person but yes, obviously they need to be academically competent if they deal with peoples health.

 

But I just feel for people who have difficulties and its heartbreaking to see that because they may not do well in a standard classroom setting, they wont be able to live their dreams.

 

I've encountered many who are great people. Some of them are so passionate about their career aspirations that it almost makes one feel ashamed for complaining about the difficulty of courses, exams etc. I've met people who, as you pointed out, seek out endless resources to do better but whose grades don't work out.

 

What are schools supposed to do? It's important to view both sides of the story. Professional school programs are intense. A certain type of personality is needed to succeed in these programs. As an example, despite selecting for ridiculous strong candidates (my class's entry GPA was 3.92), there are people in my class who have failed exams in the first semester of medical school. (ETA: to any classmates reading this, I'm merely saying this to illustrate a point, not to belittle anyone.) A certain degree of academic ability is essential to success in these programs. Passion alone is not enough. Individuals who have trouble markwise in undergrad will likely have even greater struggles if admitted into programs which are even more rigorous. The volume of content increases so it does not make sense to expect someone doing poorly in school to suddenly be pulling high marks when admitted to a program they are "passionate" about.

 

I'm just saying that admissions committees have a very difficult job selecting candidates that will make it through their programs and it's as much about academic ability as it is about anything else. There is a perception that being intensely passionate about a field somehow compensates for an application weak in other areas and I don't think that's necessarily true. Similarly, someone who is not as passionate will not necessarily be a poorer clinician/nurse/PT/OT. A little of everything is needed.

[future_doc]

I'm just saying that admissions committees have a very difficult job selecting candidates that will make it through their programs and it's as much about academic ability as it is about anything else. There is a perception that being intensely passionate about a field somehow compensates for an application weak in other areas and I don't think that's necessarily true. Similarly, someone who is not as passionate will not necessarily be a poorer clinician/nurse/PT/OT. A little of everything is needed.

 

This is so true!

[LeBronto2019]

Yes, I completely understand. I cannot say much to professional schools as I am still in undergrad. Obviously there needs to be some level of competency in the field and I respect admissions for their selection criteria. As passionate as I am of what I hope to do in medicine due to personal reasons (in my family), I know that I cannot just hope that I can give admissions a beautiful story of my life and hope to see their tears when reading my application or in the interview and just accept me. I've done my best to work hard, get good marks, balance my life out, and try to be a relatively strong candidate because I know thats what needs to get done.

 

The solution to my concerns of feeling bad for some students who cannot reach the level that admissions want is to just help them out. I cannot change the system so I'd rather tutor my friends or pass on some contact info for possible shadowing or volunteering to make them better candidates. It's what I've tried to do and hope that those who genuinely want to get in (not just those who will settle or use it as their intermediate for med school), will get in and still be the best PT/OT/clinician/whatever that they can! Its just nice when students who are struggling or lose hope in themselves can pull through to reach their dreams.

[Leon]

^ Thank you for possibly the most polite response I have ever received to a topic being debated. I'm so used to getting aggressive responses that this was actually startling to read!

 

I think our opinions are mostly in sync and it's admirable that you are doing what you are. Best of luck with applications and if you have any questions at the time, feel free to PM me.