filter105 Posted April 25, 2014 Report Share Posted April 25, 2014 Hello I've published this for MSc in non-trads forum, but for med students who are currently with Msc and publication exp, your wisdom will be appreciated. I wanted to scream this out loud and decided I will go anonymous like here. If you track my story - I did MSc and it wasn't a good experience for me. I honestly thought I had to change supervisor (but no good research out/supervisor available) and thought I would just stick it.... over time I think I gained some trust but not all at the lab (and never at the level of golden boy and golden girl)....and after MSc, worked and applied until I got into med school. Now M1. I just got an e-mail from my old supervisor's post doc asking my permission to submitting manuscript of my work.... of course the manuscript has been edited, but all the images are mine and as are results. there are NO new images that was added nor results that were newly added- just different wording and I'm sure they changed the discussion (I did not read the entire thing) The first author is that post doc and I'm second and no credit to post-doc (who is no longer with the lab) who actually helped with my work. WTF. I asked several times on diff occasion about publication because I wrote my thesis in such way (yes we will publish it so write it in publishable format...that's what my supervisor said.) hahaha. Is this allowed? I guess I should be thankful that they had a decency to ask for my permission? because they could have just submitted work without my knowing and I would not have searched for their names anyway?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justletmein Posted April 25, 2014 Report Share Posted April 25, 2014 I don't see what the big problem is... They want to submit a manuscript which includes work you did as a masters student... They have asked your permission to submit and have acknowledged your contribution by making you second author. What is the point of this whole rant? Sounds like you are holding a bit of a grudge... You are in med now, on to bigger and better things. I say let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamilt Posted April 25, 2014 Report Share Posted April 25, 2014 They are asking because they likely (if you indeed did the bulk of the work) aware that you have the final say on when and how it gets published. That is the way my former lab worked. As usual, people tend to argue over who did the "most" or more important work and thus the order of authorship. I agree with above that it is likely not worth fighting over and move onto to focusing on medicine. Also, are you aware that you can have co-first authors? Finally, since you aren't going into academia, is it worth burning bridges with these people as the publication means a lot more to them than you at your point in your career. My buddy, who is finishing his phd just told me an anecdote from his supervisor. A fellow prof in the department that had contributed negligible work to his paper asked to be on it (ie 3 or 4th authour but nonetheless get recognition). So my friend asked his supervisor and his response was, "to want an enemy or a friend?" For those that can't put it together, enemy if he held him off the pub, friend if he put him on it. I don't necessarily believe in that is how it should be, but academia just like medicine and every other freaking career, is more about schmoozing and who you know than what you know......sad but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloh Posted April 25, 2014 Report Share Posted April 25, 2014 Something doesn't add up. If nothing new was added, why wasn't the manuscript written and published by you? I'm getting the inkling that you aren't being 100% honest here. Whoever writes the manuscript and submits it is the first author. Everything you did in the lab is the property of the lab. You are getting due credit as 2nd author. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mavrik13 Posted April 26, 2014 Report Share Posted April 26, 2014 Why didn't you submit the manuscript for publication yourself if you wanted first author? You certainly sound entitled to a 1st author publication based on doing the work as a part of your MSc... but keep in mind a 2nd author publication is better than no publication if you had no intent to publish it yourself. Sorry you've had such a crappy experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomickitten86 Posted April 27, 2014 Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 I can see the point that others are making about why you didn't publish it yourself while you were a Master's student... but I understand that it is not that simple. I have a PhD and a reasonable amount of publishing experience to know that it is rarely up to the first author of the paper (in this case, I believe it should be you) on when a manuscript should be submitted. It's the supervisor. I completely disagree that it is who writes up the manuscript and who submits it who should be the first author. Yes, this is how it works in the real world, but it shouldn't be. For example, you can hire a professional writer to write the manuscript... and although yes they are being paid for their service, my point is that it's just the writing of the manuscript not all the experimental design, concepts of the project and doing the experiments etc.... which sounds like you did (and you wrote the first draft of the manuscript). The point that some people have made about being 2nd author rather than no paper is better... yes that is true... especially at the start of your publishing career. But later on, people only care if you're first author (or co-first as someone has mentioned) or corresponding/senior author. The last thing I want to say is there is an ethical and professional issue for someone to claim first author who doesn't deserve it (and that goes for any co-author on the paper too). As medical students and future physicians, I would expect that we should be as ethical and professional as possible... I think you should advocate for yourself. I don't know your supervisor, but I don't think that you are trying to burn bridges by bringing up what is fair. I have zero tolerance for people trying to take credit for my work. And I don't let people bully me into thinking that I deserve less. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filter105 Posted April 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 Thank you everyone for all your input.... And Thank you atomickitten...I feel lot better. I wrote an emotion-filled e-mail with pdf version of my thesis attached to old supervisor to gently remind him of what my thesis looked like. I added that I put in weekends and holidays into all the work and there was nothing that was added. I asked why he didn't let me publish it and that credits should be given to all that was involved. I asked for conversation and my supervisor said now that she looked at my thesis yes I should be the first author. but it will be coauthorship because the new post-doc wrote the manuscript ( I wrote my thesis in manuscript version and we talked about publishing and she never got around to publishing.....I asked number of times even after my graduation too and it was never even acknowledged or I didn't get a reply.) The data and analysis were all done by me as with experiments that were listed in the manuscript...again no additional experiment, images etc. so you can see how confused I must have been. I felt scooped and that it wasn't right.. We will see tho how it will really be published... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloh Posted April 27, 2014 Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 Thank you everyone for all your input.... And Thank you atomickitten...I feel lot better. I wrote an emotion-filled e-mail with pdf version of my thesis attached to old supervisor to gently remind him of what my thesis looked like. I added that I put in weekends and holidays into all the work and there was nothing that was added. I asked why he didn't let me publish it and that credits should be given to all that was involved. I asked for conversation and my supervisor said now that she looked at my thesis yes I should be the first author. but it will be coauthorship because the new post-doc wrote the manuscript ( I wrote my thesis in manuscript version and we talked about publishing and she never got around to publishing.....I asked number of times even after my graduation too and it was never even acknowledged or I didn't get a reply.) The data and analysis were all done by me as with experiments that were listed in the manuscript...again no additional experiment, images etc. so you can see how confused I must have been. I felt scooped and that it wasn't right.. We will see tho how it will really be published... Just to clear up some fog here. It's not up to her to publish it. The onus is on you to write the manuscript and then submit it to her and then say "hey can you edit my manuscript and lets have a discussion as to what publication to submit it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojef Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 A good friend had a similar experience while working in a lab in undergrad - i.e., he did the vast majority of the work, contributed the majority of the original ideas, wrote most of the original manuscript, etc. A post-doc then contributed negligibly and listed himself as first author. So what did my friend do? He went to war. And won. Your university or department will have guidelines on authorship that are intended to guide discussions like this. Review these. If it is clear that you've been screwed, make a case for yourself. Dig up old emails that clearly document your contributions and CC your supervisor and the post doc on these. Make a factual case for yourself and keep emotions out of it. I 100% disagree with the notion that you should just suck it up and allow someone to steal your intellectual property while you keep your mouth shut. Anyone that values intellectual honesty and academic integrity should too. If it was good enough for you while you were writing papers in undergrad, then it's good enough for this prof-to-be now. Sure, pick your battles ... but two years of your life combined with an egregious wrong committed by a self-serving post-doc seems like as good a hill to die on as any. The logic that compromising on honesty and fundamental values while being complicit in frank plagiarism will make you "friends" may be true - but it certainly won't get you respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrouchoMarx Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 I can't see what there is to lose in pursuing fair authorship credit. Most medical schools are at an arms-length from basic science faculty, so whether you anger this particular supervisor is probably irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred245 Posted May 25, 2014 Report Share Posted May 25, 2014 Most likely they asked your permission for legal reasons. As far as I'm aware, most/many journals require a letter of submission signed by all authors. If not, at least all authors must be aware and agree on what is being submitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyphon_asl Posted July 7, 2014 Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 Most likely they asked your permission for legal reasons. As far as I'm aware, most/many journals require a letter of submission signed by all authors. If not, at least all authors must be aware and agree on what is being submitted. I'm probably reviving a dead thread, but I have published and taken bioethics courses regarding this material. Firstly, while the onus is usually on the first author (student) to finalize a manuscript, the PI has some responsiblity. In some cases, the PI write the paper themselves to ensure the proper narrative. As far as what is considered the first author. Most journal outline the criteria and specifications. So if what you've done is enough for first author, then you have the right. I wouldn't personally attack anyone here, since they all want what's best for the work. I would try and work it out with your old PI and the post-doc for a mutually acceptable resolution. Personally, I would take co-authorship but would insist on being the first author listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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