The differance bwtween quebec and the rest of canada

[Guest GDL]

Hi there, I was wondering what everyone here thinks about the fact in the province of Quebec, students can get into med school immediatly after cegep ( more or less equal to end of high school), granted they have to do a year of pre-med but its still a huge differance for the rest of canada where you need to do a Bs. degree...

Do you think its unfare? Why is it only in Quebec?

Most of the people i've asked thinks it better to do a Bacc, just to make sure you get enough life exp. before going in. Some just thinks its great to be able to shave of a couple of years...

 

p.s : for some reason i can't log in as my regular handle, so I had to make a new one, I am usualy here as BioChem22

[Guest strider2004]

I don't think it really matters. By the end of your training, you'll be close to 30 anyways so I don't think it matters how old you are when you enter because you definitely WILL NOT be the same person as when you leave. Remember that life experience doesn't just stop when you hit med school. It's not a 4 year dedication. It's closer to a 10 year dedication for most people.

 

There are other schools who take students earlier on. The Universities of Calgary and Alberta will admit students afte 2 years of undergrad. SInce they also don't have OAC, it means that you could be getting in to med school at 19yrs of age and graduating at 22 yrs. That's below the average age of ACCEPTANCE at Ontario schools. You'd be hard pressed to convince people that they'd make worse doctors than anyone from Ontario though.

 

I frankly think that the entire process is overrated and tends to elevate physicians and med students to a level where they don't really need to be. Sure I like what I'm doing and I believe that I worked hard to get where I am, but I don't think that the thousands of people who didn't get in are any less deserving of med school. The whole issue of life experience is only because there are so many applicants that they need some way to differentiate between them. I believe that the difference between doctors now and doctors 30 years ago (in personality) stems from the differences in training (clinical skills) and societal norms as opposed to the maturity of people who enter med school.

[Guest Phil667]

Strider,

 

Although UofC and UofA do accept people after only two years of undergrad, this rarely happens. It is very hard to find 19-year-old's in either program (maybe one every second year). They too tend to wait until after students complete a degree. All in all, the average age of both programs is around 23 or 24 years. (I know that this was just a side point to your statement, but I thought I would point that out).

 

I am against Med schools accepting people after only two years of undergrad. I think that many students coming out of high school choose medicine as an ultimate goal because they don't really know what else is out there. The 4 years in Undergrad allows the time needed for most of those students to realize all the other career options out there... and if they do end up choosing medicine, they should be more confident in their career decision.

 

Phil

[Guest strider2004]

I don't see how it matters either way. There are very few programs that require as much pre-training as medicine and law. And with medicine, the opportunities are so vast that once you get in, you can still basically do whatever you want related to bioscience. I really don't think that medicine is the be-all, end-all that some people make it out to be. It's a jumping point but it doesn't have to decide the rest of your life.

 

I main reason I like to see older students in medicine is that I like people to really enjoy themselves and learn about themelves before they get in. Go travel, learn how to paint, cook. The commitment to medicine is about 10 years and it's pretty hard to take any real time off so it's best to do it beforehand. But these are things that you don't get from doing an extra 2 years of undergrad. What do most people do during that time? My friends worked in labs to build references for med school.

 

The majority of students going into medicine are coming from the science stream. If you look at that stream, there are only a few ultimate paths - research, applied health care, and business/corporate. If you don't want to do medicine, you probably know that going into university. Even if you don't, you'll usually have to pick a major after first year anyway so I don't agree with the argument that people aren't properly committed at 2 years. They're FORCED to commit to something in university and the only way to change that is to transfer to another department or start over. There will always be people who are unhappy with their career path. That is the same way with medicine. However, I don't think that you could possibly learn that with an extra 2 years of school.

 

I think that those who get accepted after 2 years deserve to be there because they've shown that they've committed themselves far and above others of their age group. There aren't too many students accepted to UofC/UofA after 2 years because they're competing against older, more experienced people. Would a 22 year old be more qualified for med school than a 19 year old? Obviously the answer is yes because they've had an extras 2 years to build themselves up. But should that 19 year old not be ALLOWED to apply or go to med school? I say give them a chance to at least prove themselves.

 

With the average age of students in UC/UA being around 24, it just goes to show that no matter what the bottom limit is - the students around Canada end up being about the same (except Mac). You'll always have the same types of people applying to medicine and people being selected for the same reasons. You could probably lower the lower limit to high school but the average age will still be 24. That's because those 17 yr olds are competing against much older, more experienced people. This only happens because there's such a bottleneck to get into medicine.

[Guest macdaddyeh]

Hi guys (and/or gals). To add to your discussion, I would like to say that I have lived and worked in Latin America where I learned that one can also enter med school/law school IMMEDIATELY after secondary school. In many other countries (and yes it seems sometimes that Quebec could be considered its own 'sovereign country' at times), it is the NORM and NOT an exception to start med school, and many other programs for that matter, immediately after finishing high school. In fact, already well into my undergrad degree, many of my south american friends think I am crazy because I am older now and almost done.

 

Remember that in Canada as well medicine, like law and teaching for that matter, are UNDERGRADUATE programs so really it should not matter when and why or how you are

matriculating, only that you are emotionally/mentally prepared for the challenge. That said, I would still find it difficult to believe that an 18-20 year old is that emotionally/financially/??? stable to be in medical school (although I could think of a few).

 

Anyways, fuel for your fire or food for thought....

[Guest Ceds]

Excellent discussion here... very constructive and informative yet respectful. A couple points I'd like to add...

 

Most countries/regions who admit to meds straight out of high school are more than 4 years (5-6 years) so the total time "in school" is similar anyways. And in those systems, there can be a significant proportion of students weeded out whereas in North America the philosophy is to have 100% of the class succeed and graduate.

 

Second thing to mention is that IMHO, Quebec is different from say European meds admissions. CEGEP is very different from the rest of Canada, as has already been mentioned, in that it is between high school and university. Thing to keep in mind is that a similar amount of schooling is still required prior to being able to begin the actual meds curriculum. I guess it is pretty difficult to compare the "process" for people who go through CEGEP simply because nothing like it exists outside of Quebec in our country.

 

As far as the youngin's getting into med school, I agree with macdaddy that many may not yet be emotionally ready for meds. That being said, there are some 18-19 year-olds I know who got into meds who I know very well. They deserved it not only because of their academic ability but also they WERE emotionally ready and mature enough to begin meds. As with all other things, we can always see trends but there are always exceptions to them.

[Guest therealcrackers]

For CEGEP, my understanding was that after a highly concentrated two-year program (which is very competitive) you can get admission to medical schools in the province of Quebec (all 4 of 'em, I think), putting a graduating age of about 23.

A generation ago, it used to be that people could get accepted to the seven-year med program from Grade 11--- integrated courses in science undergrad and medicine, graduating with both again at about age 23.

MUN in St. John's used to take people straight out of high school or after one year of undergrad (a family friend told me this story)---and how practical is it for someone to be learning how to respectfully do procedures like Foley catheter insertions, breast exams, testicular exams, pelvics, and rectals, when they've never seen those body parts on another person before?

In the UK, Ireland, and much of the rest of the world (ex. Australia and a couple of others) medical school and law school are direct-entry from secondary school; but again, there is an integrated program to cover the basic sciences and the medical sciences over a (usually) 6-year program. Again, graduating at an age of about 23.

In France, any French citizen can go to medical school and tuition is free... but you have to stay IN, and it's a very very competitive and weeding-intensive program.

But I echo Ceds---you're 23, you've graduated in a career that will DEMAND most of your time (free or not). What preparation or breadth do you have beyond school? You would know what to do with your work---would you know what to do with your LIFE?

I applied for med school the first time after a four-year degree at age 20. Didn't get in. Would I have been ready? Probably not. I finally got in after several years of grad school, and the additional life experience makes a huge difference for me in what I can get out of my med school experience.

[Guest Ceds]

Very good point therealcrackers. That is a major issue with respect to the "young prodigy". Even just a two year difference in matriculation could have a huge impact on how one develops personally. My Godparents son actually applied when he was 20 and didn't get in so he took a year off to travel and teach in Japan. In his case, even that one year (out of school) made a HUGE difference for him. Being outside of the country learning about another culture and more importantly learning more about himself really helped him appreciate that "living" is very important too! For me, I'm glad I went through my four years of undergrad before applying because if I had applied at 19 I don't think I personally would have been ready.

[Guest strider2004]

I don't see why doctors have to be so 'mature' when other profession don't have that obligation. A nurse graduates at age 21 or 22. They see death every day. Why can they be 21 when doctors need to be 24 or 25? What are the military? You can join when you're what, 17? 18? I hope that a 22 year old would be better prepared to help SAVE a life than they would to TAKE a life.

 

In medicine, your hand is held long enough that you don't have to worry about thrust into the dark recesses of the hospital with nothing but an ophthalmoscope and Harrison's book of Internal Medicine. Even residents have a backup if they need it.

 

I was 21 when I first got to med school and I've done a heck of a lot of growing since then. I know a lot of older people in my class who were more squeamish than me so we all grew together. For more sensitive subjects like digital rectal and pelvic exams, like anything in medicine, noone really feels comfortable doing them until they done them a few times and you won't learn how until you go to med school and learn. I don't think ANYTHING in life outside medicine will help train you to use a speculum and NOT be afraid of harming the woman the first time you try it.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that you mature as you go through med school, no matter how old you are. Medicine also isn't the end of your journey. I had the chance to go travelling on a exchange to AMSTERDAM for a clinical rotation. It wasn't just tourist travelling but it was working at a sex-change clinic and living there for a month. Our school also sends a handful of students to Guyana/Belize each summer to teach. Other people stayed here and did research, that's totally up to them. I think people make what they want out of their lives and applies while you're in medicine too. I think if you want to go exploring and learn about the rest of the world, you'll find a way to do it, even while you're in med school.

 

I feel passionately that we shouldn't be the ones telling students whether or not they're mature enough to go to med school. That should be up to them.

[Guest cheech10]

I agree with Strider 100%. Maturity can be acquired, and there is always supervision or assistance. Besides, there is a ton of training in clinical skills classes to develop maturity, and professionalism is an integral component of your evalution throughout med school. No one will ever convince me that med school admissions does such a great job evaluating maturity either.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

I worked in a Swiss hospital this past year with students from Switzerland, Greece, Egypt, and Spain. I've also interacted with med students from Germany, England and Indonesia. My impression is that the norm is entrance from High School and a 6 year medical program, with North America being the exception with its 4/3 year program and mandatory undergraduate studies.

 

At least in Switzerland, what is studied in the first two years is essentially the same as what used to be studied in "premed" programs and is not far off from the prerequisites required by most schools and tested on the MCAT. Also, the situation at the med school in the University of Geneva is that they accept roughly 300 students straight out of high school into the first year class, but there's only enough spots for 120 students in second year, so competition is fierce in first year (I met one Swiss student who was spending 10 hours a day starting July 1st, studying for exams in October!) In North America, we decide to do our weeding before people get into med school by making the admissions standards stricter. I kind of like the North American system better. . . I remember wondering this summer what happens to the 180 first year Swiss med students who don't make the cut for second year. At least in Canada you can always apply the next year, and you still have your degree!