Guest ioncannon97 Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 I think that Canadian medical schools can be placed along somewhat of a spectrum to describe their admissions process. Using political terminology, I will use "left-wing" to describe schools that emphasize non-academic and subjective criteria versus the "right-wing" schools emphasizing objective and academic criteria (somewhat befitting since the "left-wing" schools can be looked upon as being liberal or progressive in the context of their rejection of the traditional "right wing" model of admissions but these terms are by no means meant to carry any political ideology connotations). The extreme left-wing school would probably be McMaster with its rejection of the MCAT, low minimum GPA, and strong emphasis on the essay questions, autobiographical sketch and interview. The ideal right wing model would probably be Saskatchewan with its employment of a publicly known admissions formula that emphasizes undergrad cumulative percentage average and has no requirement for an essay or autobiographical sketch (i.e. admissions score = 0.76 x CPA + 0.24 x Interview score). Its hard to decide EXACTLY where each school falls along this spectrum but I think most of us know which side each leans toward (e.g. Ottawa= Left, Western = Center, Toronto = Right). The main reason i bring all of this up is that I have submitted applications to many schools this year and, in the event that I get admission into some of them, I want to have some idea of which admissions process works. What do I mean by works? Well, my idea of "works" is basically that it selects those candidates that are competent and that are going to enjoy a career in medicine. This doesn't mean that these people have to be doing it for completely altruistic reasons since a consideration of financial security and social status is a consideration, conscious or not, all of us make when we choose our careers. But, they should also not have dollar $ign$ in their eyes. So, I then pose the following question to the medical students from these various left and right leaning schools: When you look around at your classmates, do you think that they are enjoying medicine and do you think they will enjoy a career as a physician? Has your admissions process worked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Yes, on the whole I think it does. I remember trying to figure out what "type" of person made it through the admissions process. The amazing thing I found though during O-week for med school, was that the selection process by no mean selects for a specific "type" of person. We've got everything in our class - nerds right out of Revenge of the Nerds II, Jocks that might remind you more of Moose from the Archie Comic Book series than Dr. Greene, left wing activists intent on promoting global peace and health, right wing conservatives who think privatization and careful consideration of cost vs. efficay are more important than the Canada Health Act, hardcore keeners who you're worried what they're going to do to themselves if they ever get a question wrong, people with a more laid back approach. . . so laid back that you have to wonder if they're going to make it when they start studying just a week before the major set of exams, extraverted people who want to be the centre of attention, shy people who'd rather curl up with a book after class, Science students (a lot of them), Arts Students (less of them but they're still around), former cheerleaders, a former OHL player, someone who auditioned and made it quite far in the Popstars tryouts*. . . you get the point. The things we have in common are that we're all reasonably intelligent, we all worked hard enough to get the GPAs and MCAT minimums, and if we're jerks we're a least nice enough that we were able to hold it together for the interviews. Is the system perfect? Of course not. I'm sure there are people in my class with $$ in their eyes who'll end up in a career where they're not making as much per hour as they expected, they hate the 80-100 hours they spend at work, they find they have very little discretionary time to spend that $$ so it doesn't matter that they earned it anyways. And the people selected do get into personality conflicts, people do fail the odd exam. And I know at least one or two people who applied with us who were great candidates who weren't accepted. I forgot one more dichotomy in the class: people who got in on the first time, and those who got in on the 2nd (or 3rd, 4th, 5th.) There's a lot of the latter, and you know what? Nobody cares how many times you applied, just that you are in. I think the only time the system fails is not when someone who is deserved doesn't get in, but rather when that same person then doesn't take the shot to apply again. *I'd like to point out many of these examples are flamboyant exagerations. . . well, sort of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest justanotherpremed Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 cool post personally, i live in saskatchewan and have a high gpa however, i would prefer to go to omsas schools, particularly because they tend to be on the right according to your criteria peace:smokin :hat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aneliz Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 I would place UWO pretty far right based on your criteria (definitely not 'centre'...) Admission is based on GPA, MCAT and interview....no essays, no autobiographical sketch, no reference letters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 If I get what ioncannon97 was saying, UWO would be centrist: if left is subjective, and right is objective, then UWO would be 50/50 with 50% MCAT/GPA (objective) and 50% interview (subjective). Then again, what do I know. I'm just an old fogey, 3 years now removed from the process of applying. P.S. If 'left' is subjective, than U of O lies on the 'right' side of things as they tend to rely heavily on GPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ioncannon97 Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Hey justanotherpremed I am also from Saskatchewan. I wonder if you're someone I know? I think I may know who your are based on the fact that you have a "high GPA", but then again, maybe not. hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ioncannon97 Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 again, I can see that there is some problems in applying my "left wing" and "right wing" terms as not everyone agrees where a particular school falls. I stress that trying to figure out where a schools falls on the spectrum is not really the point of my post, basically I just want to find out if the medical students are happy with the classmates that their particular school's admissions process gave them. (just to note though, I think westen is center because of the 50/50 formula described above, 50 % for an interview is quite a subjective admissions policy but not as subjective as Mcmaster. I placed Ottawa on the left largely because it doesn't use the MCAT, but again, my goal really was not to spawn a discussion on the exact placement of each school on the spectrum) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Darn. And here I was hoping we could have a debate as to whether McGill was 56.5% left wing or 56.6% right wing. But seriously, you've raised an interesting question in terms of the fact that schools are vastly different in their criteria for acceptance, yet a number of them are are adamant that criteria must be filled to the T to ensure a quality med school class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest justanotherpremed Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 ion.... wassup? i'm trevor steve.. who are you?:hat :smokin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mydream88 Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Hello, IMHO I think that Mac is heading steadily toward the middle? While autobiographical submission and interview have a large part in deciding who will be accepted, those who make it that far out of 4000 people will likely have done so due to a high gpa. I think that it's hard to get a stellar assessment pre-interview without a very high gpa, unless you are the pope or something! As well, the gpa is merciless i.e. it is not weighted at all. just my opinon! mydream88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest justanotherpremed Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 i'm hoping that is true :smokin :hat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ioncannon97 Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 Hey trevor, I'm Chris Letner. sorry, don't know ya. oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest justanotherpremed Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 haha there's probably 7000 premeds at u of s that would say that they have a high gpa :hat :smokin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kosmo14 Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 Now if only they had 7000 spots. Some of those supposed pre-meds with high GPA's can be pretty intense about it. I remember in first year physics I had a lab partner who told me she couldn't help me out because I was the competition, apparently she wanted to get into medicine by anyway possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest justanotherpremed Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 kosmo14: that's hilarious... I know, the competitiveness can be ridiculous at times... I noticed that you're in U of S med 2 so i'm very interested to here your thoughts on some things... so here i go: A) how are you liking your med education as a whole? is there good camaraderie among the students at U of S... do you guys feel part of a unit ? C) what about the pbl situation at u of s... I'm under the impression that you would have been the last year not to recieve any pbl.. correct me if you guys had some pbl that i didn't know about... do you know if the pbl is working good for the first-years right now? D) how is clerkship looking? etc..:hat :smokin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kosmo14 Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 I will answer your questions in the Sask. forum in order to avoid going completely off topic. I will put up a post called "response to justanotherpremed" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steve U of T Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 Some of those supposed pre-meds with high GPA's can be pretty intense about it. I remember in first year physics I had a lab partner who told me she couldn't help me out because I was the competition, apparently she wanted to get into medicine by anyway possible. Someone showing that degree of selfishness will hopefully realize that medicine is not the profession for them. If that person cares nothing about the positive effect they may have on others, then the only reward is monetary compensation, which probably isn't worth all the effort. What's especially ridiculous is that she could think that helping a single classmate in a first year physics labs will actually affect her chances at admission. Any idea what happened to this lab partner? Back in high school, I heard all kinds of stories about the competitive nature of U of T students, even that people got their notes stolen before exams. I've been at U of T for 3.5 years now, and thankfully, everyone has been friendly and collegial. I hope that selfish competitiveness is evident to the admissions committees through interviews (although hopefully beforehand so time isn't wasted on an interview). People who refuse to help a classmate in 1st year undergrad, would likely refuse to help a medical school classmate, because they will be competing for residency spots. As physicians, they might be competing for academic appointments or other things. People like this don't make much of a contribution to the profession, so I sincerely hope the process works to keep this type of person out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 No process is perfect, let alone med school admissions. I haven't seen any episodes like that at UWO, but I have heard stories of residents and even doctors pulling similar stuff. Heck, from my brief one year exposure to academic basic science research I saw stuff like that. And I know that stuff goes on in the business world, I worked at my father's corporate office a bit when I was in High School and if I hadn't realized it before, I learned there are people blinded to achievement in the world. Two points to keep in mind: 1) The vast majority of people aren't like that. That's pretty extreme in my experience. 2) A lot of people like that get burned in their careers. But some make it far. And then again, a lot of people make it far by playing it completely straight. A good family friend of ours is an ENT surgeon. Very competitive specialty to get into. You couldn't find a more honest, up-front straight shooter anywhere. Any time in the first two years of med school I heard people claiming you had to do X quasi-ethical maneouver to get into the residency program you wanted, I thought of him and realized some people get so caught up in competition they miss the big picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kellyl20 Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 Heard of this gal in 2nd year med gunning for Plastics has a reputation for "selling her grandmother if she can" if it means she can get her specialty. Her brother who is a year ahead of her is very much like that also but for a different specialty. See, the admissions committee did not detect these flaws.....two years in a row at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ioncannon97 Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 I've heard from most medical students that the residency placing almost always depends largely on your performance in clerkship. So, these people getting gray hair in second year are probably gaining no advantage anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Yeah, we had a funny episode in our class last year when we were all in second year. . . UWO is moving to a P/F system gradually over the next few years, and there is some confusion as to which courses are currently H/P/F and which ones were P/F. A rumour started that Pharmacology in particular was P/F. This was not true. Then a rumour started that a friend of mine intentionally started that rumour in the hopes people wouldn't study as hard for a P/F course and they'd look better with one of the few Hs. Trust me, this latter rumour was BS as well. I'll repeat that - my friend spread no such rumour. I found it hilarious because: a) I doubt many people would have been psyched into studying less by such a rumour. I doubt that even if people HAD been psyched into studying less, enough people would have heard the rumour for it to affect marks dramatically c) As someone here pointed out - IT'S FREAKING SECOND YEAR FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. DO YOU THINK WHETHER ANOTHER CLASSMATE HAD AN H OR A P IN A SINGLE COURSE IN SECOND YEAR COULD POSSIBLY AFFECT HOW MY FRIEND WILL MATCH? d) The person accused of starting this rumour made it into medical school. Do you honestly think they aren't smart enough to think of a), and c)? Don't believe everything you hear. Especially when it comes from a bunch medical students stressed out at exam time. I think a lot of this inherent in the social dynamic of a group of 100 odd people. One thing I've noticed this year from working closely for weeks at a time with classmates I didn't know that well before: a lot of people get pigeon-holed with a label when you're in a group of 100 people, and working closely with those people in clinic day in and day out for a week can make you realize those labels are often inaccurate. In the case of the latter rumour being started, my friend is known as an intense hard worker who will probably try to match to a relatively competitive specialty. Having that label attached to them made them vulnerable to being accused of starting rumours (ie pharm=p/f) for their own career aspirations. But I can guarantee no such rumour was started by him. And the worst thing is, whereas the P/F rumour would have harmed nobody, the rumour that it was intentionally started by my friend actually could have harmed them. From what I've heard residency programs tend not to obsess over one or two H/P/F marks, but They really don't like hearing (unfounded in this case) rumours students like to backstab their classmates. P.S. I casually described this incident to one of the admin types at UWO. They thought it was hilarious, for pretty much the same reasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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