is anyone as concerned about tuition as I am?

[Guest kkastelic]

I have read alot of information about the debt loads ($100,000+) that new doctors face. I have also read alot about investing and how those who invest early do better in terms of having money to retire even if they won't make as much as a doctor. Mostly though, I am concerned about making the decision to go to med school because I have a good career (50,000+yr) that I like and even though I feel that I am passionate about medicine, I just don't know if putting my new husband and I through years of debt plus moving away from my family is the right decision. How are others resolving some of these questions? Also, since I am applying to Mac and I live in BC, is the tuition higher for out of provincers? and will I qualify for Ont loans or BC loans? Thanks!

[Guest ThugJaan]

Med education is quite expensive, but I think it applies differently to everyone:

 

a) you probably avoid the costs of undergrad, since you seem to be a mature applicant (ie - Mac)

 

Mac is a three year programme which costs about 15 grand or so a year, so you are looking at about 45 grand.

 

Starting salary for a resident is about 44 grand a year in Ontario, yeah I know, very very crappy.

 

But, it does get better every year and eventually you will acutally make a decent amount of money.

 

In short, you do not seem to someone who will go into great debt over this. Afterall, you will owe about 50 grand after 3 years, which isn't terrible. Yes, resident pay will suck very very bad, but if you put up with the tough resident life, you will eventually make enough money that you will be able to say that medical education did not finanacially cripple your family.

 

So if you want to be a doctor, you probably won't go into a ton of debt. Just don't expect to make a decent pay check until residency is done, and after that you will be able to concentrate on the good sides of medicine without the montary concerns.

[Guest Zaphod]

It's spelled "cheque"...

[Guest KG]

Gee, thanks. Now that you've corrected that guy's spelling error, none of us will have to worry about debt ever again!

[Guest Ian Wong]

Nope, you still have to worry about debt!

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Zaphod]

Hey, if you you're risking massive debt loads to become a physician, might as well be able to spell cheque, if for no other reason than to be prepared to bounce them!

[Guest Carolyn]

I've written about the concerns over debt loads on a more macroscopic level in the OSAP forum but I see in my classmates that the individual concerns over debt are very real for medical students.

 

You may find it helpful to sit down with a financial consultant to determine whether it really makes sense for you. They would have different strategies for your individual situation. Your predicted debt may end up influencing whether or not you'd want to do family medicine or medicine at all. MD Management has a bunch of financial consultants available (they are available through http://www.cma.ca) - it is free to student members - I'm not sure about applicants but it might be a place to start as they have a good Idea about the costs of medical school.

 

With regards to check/cheque... One of the nice things about this forum is the lack of animosity - Please lets not spend time correcting spelling and putting down others - it just adds a bad taste to the forum -- go back to delphi if you want to play those games.

 

Take Care.

 

Carolyn

[Guest Zaphod]

Carolyn,

no animosity intended! A bit of levity can't harm anyone! Delphi's fora (plural of forum, I think!) are vitriolic at times, but still have some decent participation.

Zaph

[Guest Presuming Ed]

Anyone in MacMed have any thoughts, experience, re part-time work during school? If one needs to rely on a line of credit, which requires "only" that you repay interest during school and residency, how does one pay the interest? Wouldn't the interest add up if you use the credit, particularly in second and third years? This is made worse given the lack of summers in which to work...

[Guest Ian Wong]

Most students simply look at themselves and say: "Well, I'm already in debt $X0,000, how much worse could it get?" Unless you have the potential to get a really high-paying job (which is very difficult if you're one of those fresh-out-of-undergrad med students), working in the summer doesn't put much of a dent into your total debt.

 

You also most likely, even in a four year program, only truly have the summers after first and second year to work, as third year tends to have a very short summer break (at UBC, it is two weeks), and that is prime time to shadow physicians or get involved with research to help decide on a future specialty. Lots of other classmates took that time to do some travelling, which they won't have much time for in the coming years, or to get married.

 

About the only people in my class who continue to work, even in third year, are the pharmacists in our class, many of whom will bag $300+ dollars for each 8 hour shift.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Presuming Ed]

How does one become a pharmacist?!

[Guest JD]

He's probably referring to those in his class that completed a pharmacy degree before entering med school...

[Guest Ian Wong]

Yeah. Those people who completed a Pharmacy BSc. and have been working as Pharmacists before/during medical school. They can really make a significant amount of cash, but each one of them does the job for the money, and not out of interest's sake. Still, getting a good salary for reasonable work hours is a great deal, plus you learn a lot of medically-relevant information. Here's some information about the UBC Pharmacy program, and within, a link to the UBC Pharmacy website:

 

premed101.com/career.html

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest strider2004]

check (chk)

n.

An action or influence that stops motion or expression; a restraint: Heavy rains were a check on the army's advance.

The condition of being stopped or held back; restraint: kept my temper in check; holding agricultural pests in check with sprays.

An abrupt stop in forward movement or progress; a halt.

The act or an instance of inspecting or testing, as for accuracy or quality; examination: the careful check of each unit before sale; gave the car an oil check.

A standard for inspecting or evaluating; a test.

A check mark.

A ticket or slip of identification: a baggage check.

A bill at a restaurant or bar.

Games. A chip or counter used in gambling.

A written order to a bank to pay the amount specified from funds on deposit; a draft.

A small crack; a chink.

 

A pattern of small squares, as on a chessboard.

One of the squares of such a pattern.

A fabric patterned with squares: a dress of pale green check.

 

 

cheque (chk)

n. Chiefly British

 

fo·rum (fôrm, fr-)

n. pl. fo·rums, also fo·ra (fôr, fr)

 

Wow, I really should be looking up stuff for PBL, not

grammar. Debt loads will be with us for a while in Ontario. Last year the OMA tried to lobby the gov't about reregulating tuition but the reply was something to the effect of "boohoo, the doctors will have to wait a couple more years to get their Mercedes" A letter campaign began and that statement was eventually retracted. But that reflects a lot of the general public's opinion of med students' tuition protests. This means that the gov't does not see this problem as being urgent(polls are all that matter, especially this being an election year in Ontario).

 

The med student argument is a difficult one because there are so many services that NEED money. If they lowered every Ontario med student's tuition to...$5000, then the gov't would have an extra $20 million that they'd have to pull out of some other service. Hospitals? Education? Welfare? As a government it's hard to justify this decision because it puts us into debt. That argument can easily be blown away by a teacher's strike or even a nursing strike. The only way that the gov't could justify lowering our tuition is that the high tuition discourages the top students from learning in Ontario and going to other provinces, resulting in a regional brain drain. Surveys are currently being to to look at med school accessibility and tuition in Ontario. Hopefully then we'll have more leverage.

 

Just a note, the Ontario Medical Association is the largest lobbying group in Ontario.

 

As for lines of credit, they are very easy to come by as a med student. People in my class routinely get $30k a year at prime interest(around 4% now). Schools are also sometimes good with their bursary programs and grant up to $10,000/yr. Be sure to look at your school's award programs.

[Guest MACMD1997]

Hello everyone I posted this elsewhere but I think it's relevant here as well

 

I notice a great deal of concern regarding compensation, debt etc. Trust me, everything will be financially excellent!

 

I am a currently a family doc. I first did a Bcom degree worked a year ( in hellish finance). My friend and I (also bcomm) wanted to open our own business. After brainstorming ideas we thought man doctors clean up, its a safe venture all we need is the schooling. We basically saw how much these MD's were making relative to their great lifestyle so we took all the science prereq's impressed the adcomms with our background and Got accepted to Mac . Did the three years, 2 years residency and boom!

 

In my first year I opened a family practice with my friend , we ran it 8-6 6 days a week and I worked as an associate at another office 4 nights from

6:30-9pm (It was in a mall). My first year income was $302,000. I know I worked alot in year 1 but that was to pay off my debts. In year 1 I paid of $100,000 in debt (med school, Bcomm, prereq's and credit cards). Year 2 our practice was going really strong, I earned $375,000. We overbilled (outside the cap of 352,000) but it be a good 6-7 years before our gov't will come for it so we just invest the overbill in safe investments and keep the profit. In year 2 I had the car (911 of course to get to my patients on time) , 700K house (mortgage of course but payable in 3-4 years). So you can see as a doctor (even family doc's, now specialists they really get into crazy money) by the time you are 34-35 you will be set, don't worry the money will come just clean up and kick ass on the grades grow a great attitude and bubbly personality for the admissions people and your as good as gold.

I guess because I come from a business background I am oriented towards money but in medicine you will make more than anyone else and its virtually risk free!!

 

Good luck fight the good fight!

 

"Miami DC.... I perfer versachi, lexus LX 4 and half bullet proof tints if I want some backseat ass" - Notorious B.I.G.

[Guest strider2004]

MACMD1997,

 

Most of the med students could probably use your help in financial planning and debt management. Can you tell us more about your money management in your first 2 years out of residency?

 

Thanks!

Alex

[Guest KG]

First off, I liked your post, MacMD. Nice quote at the end too (LOL). But you make it sound too easy. Why is it that (or at least I get the impression) most new MDs nowadays are in debt for at least several years? At the risk of sounding naive (still a lowly pre-med, after all), I don't think that medicine is the right profession for people that are 100% in it for the money. Too many years of work, too much s%^t to deal with, etc.

[Guest MacMD1997]

Hello all

 

I know it may sound easy but the the fact is our services are in great demand, it is really a matter of your methodology in securing a substantial income stream early on. For example may MD's out of residency are tired of working, studying and thinking about debt so a vast majority of med students upon graduation do the safest thing possible (perceived safest thing possible), this is accept a salaried position in the hospital. Here they are locked into a pay scale for the rest of their lives. I remember at the time when I graduated the pay scale started at 69,000 for family doc's and moved up 6-8K per year until it reached the max of 110-120K( no matter how much you worked you couldn't go beyond the ceiling) if I can recall correctly. Well it doesn't take a finance major to realize that with a 100,000K debt load and a salary of approx 70K it will be a good 10-15 years before you pay down your debt. You see, stripped down a hospital staff position is really just another gov't job (ie teacher, postal worker etc and gov't jobs have never been looked at as high paying or even fair paying) you start low and move in lock step(slowly) until you reach some salary ceiling that the gov't has set.

 

Tons of students took these positions because it seemed so easy relative to starting your own practice. Now I'm not saying don't work in the hospital, it's just not the way to become financially well off.

 

The second batch of students thought about opening their own practice but got scared thinking of you guessed it more debt (ie. working capital, lease agreements, staff, property tax) so off they went to private practice working as a associate. They basically received a salary (slightly higher than the hospital) while the doc who owned the practice kept the lion share of the billing. Again you ain't gonna break the bank like that.

 

Now us, We saved a ton by opening our own practice rather than buying a existing one. When you buy an existing practice the retiring doc will charge you what is called Goodwill. This is a fee for the equity (or patient base) that the doctor has built over the years. It's usually around 200,000 -500,000. So you pay that just to get his patient base, no building, no supplies, no staff, nothing just to get his patient files and his location. When new grads see that they freak out, its a huge cost. We decided the demand was so great that we didnt need to buy someone's patient base. We basically selected our location by mapping out concentric circles (concentration of people relative to family docs), discovering growth areas (new housing) and phoning up all of the family doc's in the area to see if they were taking new patients. We finally found an area that had tons of new development, a low concentration of MD's and only one who was taking new patients. Bingo!

 

3 months before we completed residency we hired a receptionist (to workout of her home at first and again paid her with loan from bank which they gave no questions asked) started advertising and began to book patients for our first day open. It worked, we were packed when we opened the doors. So from day one we were printing money (ohip billing receipts actually!)

 

I think the demand for MD's is going to grow exponentially as from what I see they really don't let the required number of students into Med school (in ontario anyway) Thanks our screwed up gov't and their limits people can't even find MD's that are taking patients

 

 

On a side note don't take the admissions stuff to seriously, it was interesting to see this board because I remember meeting a lot of people who were very worried about getting in and were just really stressed out all the time in med school. It's all about attitude, the schools want you to think this is totally the holy grail, they are the gate keepers to the mystery..... screw them. Just say to yourself, what kind of person makes a good doctor write down all of the things you can think of and go out and try to do alot of those activities to cover your basis.

 

Its really a checklist, because lets face it the adcomms don't have some magic formals and computer and bubbling potions that tell them who they want, they have checklist. Like my list a doc should be compassionate(I helped out an a orphanage a hour a week), creative (I learned an instrument), intellectual(I wrote papers for extra credit) should be regarded highly by others (I took my science profs out of beers and wings a few times and bowling after I saw the bowling trophies in one profs office (you bet I got awesome req letters saying what a great guy I was)

 

Getting in is a game, so play the game and get the qualities they adcomms need, don't let people in med school scare you into thinking its something for the elite student because its really not. So relax, enjoy your undergrad and get in in in!!!!!

[Guest Presuming Ed]

I gather from many of our concerns that it's not "how soon can I get the Jag" that's bothering some, but "will I be able to eat" after finishing!

 

I came out of two bachelor's degrees with $18K in student loans 4 years ago and still paying. I can't fathom coming out of another degree with $100K! As most people prefer to pay off debt sooner rather than later, the ability to manage debt and pay it off is important, and harsh as it sounds, income levels are the primary determinant of how quickly and easily they can be done.

 

Another issue re debts, tuition levels and whether they are reduced/capped, income, fee for service, caps, etc.,: how many Canadian graduates head for the US for no other reason than big incomes = debt payoff/get that big house/fancy car?

 

How much money in subsidised tuition/lost income tax/lost sales tax/lost GST/etc., etc., is the "government" (read: taxpayers) losing because of the brain drain? I know of 2 recent grads who work in the US for that very reason.

Both intend to return to Canada, but not until they have retired their debts and built up a fund to start a practice, get a house downpayment, etc.

 

LONG TERM financial consequences have to be looked at, from our own perspectives and that of society.