McMaster MD grads vs. 4-year MD grads for residency

[Guest PDSP]

I was wondering if McMaster graduates have a more difficult time than other graduates in gaining acceptance to competitive (specialized) residency spots?

 

My question is based upon the following concerns:

1) The shorter McMaster program may not provide students with sufficient opportunity to complete electives in the field to which they are applying. That is McMaster students do not have the 6 months of combined "vacation" (or elective time) following first and second year found in 4-year programs. This time is undoubtedly used to not only explore career choices, but to form relationships with potential residency institutions.

 

2) There may exist a bias against (or perhaps towards) McMaster graduates based on the fact that McMaster has a different philosophy and teaching methodology as compared to the institutions to which the graduate is applying for specialization.

 

3) The lack of numerical grades during medical school not providing residency directors with sufficient information to differentiate the applicant from the rest of the applicant pool.

 

4) According to CARMS,

i) 52% of McMaster 2002 graduates listed Family Medicine as their 1st choice, vs. 30% overall average across all Canadian schools. Is this because McMaster attracts many students interested in family practice or the student felt that they wouldn't be competitive for other speciality spots?

[Guest macdreams]

Ooh, good question! :

 

I'd like to know the answer too.

 

As for the family medicine one, I would think that Mac's philosophy attracts more family meds types rather than your other suggestion... but that's just my best guess. Can't wait to hear the answers.

[Guest aneliz]

A couple of points: (From a UWO perspective)

 

1. Those 'combined six months' of vacation/elective time in the summers after first and second years ARE NOT (as a general rule) used to make contact with possible residency positions....Really, at this point we haven't even STARTED clerkship yet...let alone decided on a specialty or even more specifically, a desired location....there may be a few people that have all of this figured out and are out slurping (read House of God) during this time, but not many. Most people are planning to: travel, work at summer camps, relax with family/friends, do research, do overseas electives, do rural med electives, volunteer with various organisations, go to China or Africa with service groups, etc. All of this stuff will be useful in showing that you have a life for CaRMS applications but really not applicable to 'securing' a spot in any one discipline or residency program. And, it really isn't 6 full months either....by the time we get finished, it is mid-June and if you are planning to help with next year's O-week, you will be back before the end of August.

 

2. In terms of 'marks' and the lack of numerical marks at Mac...MOST Canadian med schools are on a P/F or H/P/F system...and one residency program director has already stated at our career night that it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE for them to compare marks between candidates from different schools anyway (even if they did have % marks) because the program structures and marking are so different. In his program, they give applicants' academic achievement a mark out of 10...and according to him, this year, all 40 applicants were given an 8/10. As long as you don't fail anything, you will be fine...marks really don't matter that much for residency (in his program - a fairly competitive one - marks were worth 10/100 points in their applicant scoring system).

[Guest macdaddyeh]

Hi there:

 

Well stated question, Macdreams...a well thought out line of thought. I too, was wondering that same thing.

 

I concur entirely with aneliz in that I believe Mac fosters a philosophy that really leads a lot of people into primary medicine, whereas, (and this is only conjecture), a school like U of T places heavy emphasis on research and specialization (being a bigger school, with a bigger budget in a bigger city).

 

I am sure that you are granted sufficient time to explore your options and make a choice. My only concern lies with knowing that if (and when:rolleyes ) I am granted acceptance that I would not feel sufficiently prepared to really start hands-on medicine in as early as second year (not taking into account first year observerships).

 

Nonetheless, let us wait for the "inside scoop" from those who walk the hallowed halls of Mac!

[Guest jmh2005]

Yet another question I can't really answer...

 

Aneliz had some great thoughts, I concur...Just casually chatting with many of my classmates (2005), Family Medicine doesn't seem to the main interest, from my very informal survey (hense, non-scientific poll...), many want to do specialties...mind you we won't be in the match for 2 years and things can change quickly when the real work and crazy hours begin, I suspect.

 

A story for you...a friend in my tutorial already knows he wants ENT (and the program)...at a large university here in Ontario ...he already visited the program director to find out exactly what he needs to do to be successful...this director basically said that because we have such a qualitative way of doing our evaluations, there is now way he could compare my friends application to others, because we do not have any class rankings (however, I did not think other schools did either, but I don't know)...so my friend was basically told that because he was from Mac, he would likely not be competitive and didn't really stand a chance....the gall!!!

 

If you look at last years stats (sorry, they're not public knowledge...) 2 Mac grads matched to Optho which is amazingly hard, 1 to ENT in Winnipeg (as we know, equally difficulty), a 3 neuro, 2 anesthesia, 1 Emergency Medicine, 2 neurosurgery, 2 ortho, 2 PM & R, 1 radiology, 4 Obs/Gyne, lots of psych and peds, several internal and surgery (not as competitive)...so we do match to competitive specialities...I think that my story above is an isolated situation but apparently there are a few higher-ups that this hold this notion that Mac students can't be appropriately compared...

 

If it comes down to choosing between Mac and another school, don't let it be because of CaRMS...weigh the other pros and cons because I think that this one really doesn't matter much!!

 

Just my two cents!! Good luck!!

[Guest macdaddyeh]

JMH:

 

To add to the discussion again, first I am upset with the fact that a MAC student received such abrasive attention from a director of a given specialty based on the "qualitative" assessments for which Mac is well known (and well respected). This is very problematic however and as per the intention of the original post, many feel that this is one of Mac's downfalls; I don't think so, but I know many do.

 

Second, you are partly correct when you say that match stats are privy information, but many details are indeed public and available for wide viewing access (minus names etc). It is interesting to note that, to its credit, Mac actually had very few vacancies left in the match meaning that people pretty much got what they wanted (loosely interpreted of course)

 

Fellow posters, please refer to:

www.carms.ca/stats/stats_index.htm

[Guest gucio93]

I will try my best to shed some more light:

1) If you count the weeks in the length of McMaster's programme, it is basically on par with other medical programmes. The reason it is three years, is that there are only three weeks of holidays during the entire calendar year. As far as electives, we have an eight week elective block in the summer of first year, and we have four weeks of elective in November of second year. Then it depends on the clerkship rotation you are in, but most students get at least eight more weeks of electives prior to CaRMS. Thus, as you can see, plenty of time to try different specialties and form contacts.

 

2) I, personally, have not met with such bias. My philosophy is that when you work with someone, you have aple opportunity to prove yourself no matter what school you are from, and ultimately (most of the time) they will pick you because of your skill and not because of the school you attend. Also, re: above story, obviously I do not know all the details, but I would like to think that if the person has actually worked with the chair of the programme, vs. just speaking to him, and allowed him to see their worth, the answer might have been different.

 

3) To reiterate Aneliz's point, most other schools in Canada do not have grades or numerical systems any longer.

 

4) According to CaRMS, last year 100% of Mac students matched in the first round. Most got their first choice, and over 50% matched specialties, many of them competitive.

 

Hope this helps to dispell some myths and insecurities re: Mac. It's a great school as far as I'm concerned.

[Guest Carolyn]

I don't have much to add.

 

Just about the family medicine match rate - it seems to change every year. As you'll note from the class of 2002 50% matched to Family Medicine, but from the year before I believe it was around 32% (I couldn't find the statistic on the page today)

 

I'm not sure what our match statistics will be like this year. Interestingly, a number of people that were hard-core family medicine at the beginning have chosen specialties and some that were hard-core specialties have chosen family medicine.

 

With respect to electives, one of the things programme directors often comment on is the large amount of elective time that we have at McMaster. Lots of time to try things out, switch around your plans etc.

 

 

Take care.

[Guest aneliz]

Macdaddyeh,

 

I don't think that the CaRMS stats that you linked to are showing what you think they are.

 

I may have misinterpreted you, but I think that you implied that they show that Mac students matched very well with what they wanted (based on the fact that Mac only had 4 unfilled residency spots after the first round last year).

 

This stat, although true, really says NOTHING about how Mac's graduating class did in the match. This tells you that there were 4 residency spots at Mac that went unfilled (ie PGY1 positions in Mac residency training progarams). These spots could have been filled by ANYBODY (from any school)that was in the first round of the match...and similarly, Mac's grads likely matched to schools and disciplines all over the country. I know the stats that you want are about somewhere....just couldn't find them today.

 

Edited to add:

 

I found them:

 

Follow the ealier link and then look at the 2002 PGY1 Survey results...it will break it down by school to show how many got their first choice program and discipline. Mac's stats are very comparable to all of the other Canadian schools.

[Guest PDSP]

Hi all,

 

Thank you very much for all of your input regarding McMaster graduates' level of competitiveness when it comes to residency applications. The comments above pushed me to further investigate the clerkship/elective time issue and here is what I have discovered:

 

McMaster

- 67 weeks of clerkship (including all elective time)

- 20 weeks of electives before CARMS interviews

- 27 weeks of electives total

 

Compared to Toronto

- 81 weeks of clerkship (including all elective time)

- 12 weeks of electives before CARMS interviews

- 18 weeks of electives total

 

- Rotations at U of T that are not included in McMaster curriculum:

- ENT/Opthamolgy (1 week each)

- Dermatology (1-2 weeks)

- Emergency Medicine (4 weeks)

 

If McMaster students were to undertake electives in the rotations offered at U of T but not at McMaster, they would still have a total of 14 weeks of pre-CARMS electives. This is 2 weeks more than U of T! Now, this does not take into account that U of T students have the opportunity, but are not required, to take electives during the time off after first and second year (26 weeks total).

 

Thanks,

 

PD

[Guest macmed04]

Another point to consider: U of T and UBC are two schools I'm aware of who don't accept preclerkship students from other schools for electives (our 4 week elective block just before official clerkship rotations start is considered to be during clerkship).

I did a radiology elective at UofT, and was told by someone who used to be part of the admissions committee that they look for candidates who've done something "different" - and that they consider coming from Mac as proving that we've done something different. He said coming from Mac is an advantage.

I never worried about not being ready for clerkship by December of year 2. One of the prime advantages of Mac in my eyes was not having to wait as long to really start the practical part of things as I would at another school. So far I haven't found clerkship to be at all intimidating, although I did start out in Family and Psych.

[Guest PDSP]

macmed04:

 

Thanks for your comments on electives during the pre-clerkship period. Just to clarify, do you know if a U of T student would be able to do a clerkship elective (or observership) at U of T while still in the pre-clerkship stage (after 1st and 2nd year)?

 

As well, what is the 8 week elective period following McMaster's Unit 3 used for? That is, can students participate in clinical (clerkship) settings or is this time used for academic/research purpose?

 

Thanks,

 

PD

[Guest gucio93]

The 8 week elective period after Unit 3 can definitely be used for clinical experiences. I did electives in family medicine, adolescent health, radiology and internal medicine in those 8 weeks.

 

Also, to add to your earlier comments, Mac actually does have exposure to Emergency Medicine during clerkship - it is a two week period during the Family Medicine rotation.

[Guest PDSP]

Thanks. This conversation has helped to alleviate my concern for Mac graduate's competitiveness. For those third year Mac students, I hope that the recent CaRMS match met with your expectations. Anyone able to share any insight to this conversation now that we are in the post-CaRMS period?

 

Thanks,

 

PD

[Guest Carolyn]

Our class did extremely well in carms this year. Only one student did not match (apparently decided not to rank as changed his mind from Surg to Family medicine just before interviews and is now entering the second match)... I believe about 35% went into family medicine but the actual statistics don't come out for a month or so. The majority of people were extremely happy with their matches... A lot of people got some very competitive positions.

[Guest PDSP]

Carolyn:

 

Understanding that you matched to your first choice specialty of Emergency Medicine, I have a few quick questions for you:

 

1) Did you match at McMaster, one of the schools at which you did an elective, or elsewhere?

 

2) Did you match to your first choice program?

 

3) Would you mind sharing with us the electives you chose to participate in during your medical education? Did you spend time at other schools? Out of the country? Doing research?

 

Your web page provided a great summary of your interview experience at McMaster. I'll provide the link here for others to reference:

webhome.idirect.com/~snider/

 

Thanks again for all your help.

 

PD

[Guest Carolyn]

PDSP,

 

i thought your questions were going to be about the interview - sorry...

 

Anyways -- about my "match"

 

1) Did you match at McMaster, one of the schools at which you did an elective, or elsewhere?

 

I matched at University of Toronto - I did do an elective there but I believe that the other two who matched did not - proving that it is not absolutely necessary -- it can help or hinder you it seems from others experiences (i.e. some people I know did electives at different schools and then didn't even receive an interview there)

 

2) Did you match to your first choice program?

 

Yes - UofT Emergency Medicine was my first choice

 

3) Would you mind sharing with us the electives you chose to participate in during your medical education? Did you spend time at other schools? Out of the country? Doing research?

 

I did the following electives:

 

Horizontal (~1/2 day per week)

 

1st year: Family medicine, Emergency Medicine, Pediatrics, Internal Medicine, Critical Appraisal (obviously not all of these were done throughout... I think all of them were for a maximum of 6 - 8 weeks

 

2nd year: Emergency Medicine, Hematology (3 months of each)

 

Block (i.e. full-time clinical elective):

Post Unit 3 (1st summer): 6 weeks: Emergency Medicine in Kathmandu, Nepal and 2 weeks: Hematology in Hamilton

 

Post Unit 4 (pre-clerkship): 2 weeks: Emergency Medicine in Cambridge Ontario, 2 weeks: Internal Medicine in Hamilton

 

(Pre-Carms): 4 weeks Emerg in Hamilton, 4 weeks Emerg at Sunnybrook (toronto)... Post-Carms: 2 weeks Anesthesia (Toronto - St. Mikes), 3 weeks Emerg at VGH (Vancouver), 3 weeks outpatient clinics in Hamilton

 

Research: Did a paper on Head Injuries in Nepal and a paper on Congenital TTP (Hematology)

 

I believe a lot of my success is also due to my extra curricular activities. I am very involved at the school and have a long list of extra-curriculars and sports that I have always been involved in. I also have a background in business.

 

Most importantly, It is important to realize that there really is no recipe for success. I could easily have been one of the people who went unmatched this year -- it was ridiculously competitive. I got pooed on by multiple birds this February and like the day before I got my acceptance letter to Mac, the poop brought me a lot of good luck.

 

Carolyn

[Guest PDSP]

Carolyn:

 

Thanks for your detailed explanation. I do appreciate your time.

 

Congratulations, again

 

Sean